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DanteGabriel

US Politics: flaking out and coming uncorked

400 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, r'hllor's redrum lobster said:

yeah i doubt that's the reason they are gonna lose

One of the left’s biggest problems is that they’re often seen as being out of touch. Running around and calling Republicans Nazis will just feed into that narrative, and it will be detrimental to their electoral prospects.

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

One of the left’s biggest problems is that they’re often seen as being out of touch. Running around and calling Republicans Nazis will just feed into that narrative, and it will be detrimental to their electoral prospects.

Republicans are never going to vote Democrat anyway, and it's high time we called a spade a spade. Their party is made up of and led by out and out Nazis. That's just a fact, and sugar coating it doesn't make that medicine go down any better. 

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2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Yeah, of all the things I've seen in political history, this wave of calling a string of born-wealthy Ivy League family brand name guns 'n God conservatives 'anti-establishment' has got to be the most dumbfounding. I'm never quite sure whether to assume sincere stupidity or cynical gamesmanship. 

I think the most dumbfounding thing in politics was the distinction between 'good' Nazis and bad  Nazis after WWII. The ones that only did paperwork, or ran the trains to the death camps,  or sorted the gold from the teeth, well they were the 'good' Nazis because they accepted no responsibility for the deeds of the actual killers. Some claimed they joined the Nazis because that was how you got ahead, but they did not really believe. 

Working with and facilitating the work of bad Nazis made (and makes) you a Nazi. 

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Triple post time!

DP. this kind of language is exactly what I was railing against, and it will cause Democrats to lose. 

We've already lost.  And we lost when we were being polite and mum about the nazi thing. 

15 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

One of the left’s biggest problems is that they’re often seen as being out of touch. Running around and calling Republicans Nazis will just feed into that narrative, and it will be detrimental to their electoral prospects.

If Republicans want to vote for someone who has been declared the defacto leader of nazis, that's on them.  Tiptoeing around that doesn't help anything.  If they don't want to vote for nazis, then that's also on them.  

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27 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Republicans are never going to vote Democrat anyway, and it's high time we called a spade a spade. Their party is made up of and led by out and out Nazis. That's just a fact, and sugar coating it doesn't make that medicine go down any better. 

The overwhelming majority of Republicans won’t, but a handful will, as the last election showed. However, that’s not the point. Democrats need to expand their voter base and the best way to do that is to appeal to those who didn’t vote. Screaming, “Nazi, Nazi, Nazi” won’t achieve that end.

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1 hour ago, r'hllor's redrum lobster said:

lol, buddy believe me i am aware

Then I don't know why it's such a stretch for you to think that Bush thought he was doing the right thing. That doesn't change the fact that he was both stupid and morally wrong. 

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

 

We've already lost.  And we lost when we were being polite and mum about the nazi thing. 

If Republicans want to vote for someone who has been declared the defacto leader of nazis, that's on them.  Tiptoeing around that doesn't help anything.  If they don't want to vote for nazis, then that's also on them.  

First, take that defeatist mindset and throw it in the garbage. It does you no service. Second, honest question, do you want to win, or do you want to feel some level of self-righteousness? Because while lashing out at your political opponents (or enemies) might feel good, it’s not the best way to actually win elections, and the latter should be your ultimate goal.

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4 hours ago, Mexal said:

If Trump was a liberal, he’d be the smartest man in the world.

 

So much this. When you read transcripts of his interviews, the incompetence really shines through. He manages to mask some of these shortcomings verbally. 

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33 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The overwhelming majority of Republicans won’t, but a handful will, as the last election showed. However, that’s not the point. Democrats need to expand their voter base and the best way to do that is to appeal to those who didn’t vote. Screaming, “Nazi, Nazi, Nazi” won’t achieve that end.

Yeah, ok, when you see me on a street corner calling everyone who looks conservative a nazi, then you'd have a smidgeon of a point.  I'm on some forum of a defunct book series where the crowd tends to skew liberal.  I don't think would be Democrats are hanging out here.  

And in any case, I'm not going to sugar coat it for someone.  I'm not going to pretend that reality isn't reality.  The reality is that people who voted for Trump voted for someone who has been declared the leader of nazis.  This is truth.  If a Trump voter doesn't know that then they should.  Hiding this away does no one any good.

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3 hours ago, Nasty LongRider said:

However, in polite conversation, I guess 'white supremacist' will just have to do.  

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/357271-former-mcconnell-aide-calls-bannon-a-white-supremacist#.WfIQz2x2TSw.twitter

Yeah, I have no problem labeling Bannon as such. Seems to me he prefers the term Nationalism, but when you boil down many of his beefs, you're typically left with White Nationalism, which as near as I can tell is a form of White Supremacy.

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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13 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I have no problem labeling Bannon as such. Seems to me he prefers the term Nationalism, but when you boil down many of his beefs, you're typically left with White Nationalism, which as near as I can tell is a form of White Supremacy.

Of course--and this is in no way a justification of Trump's inanity--it is good to keep in mind that people do not speak the way they write, and standalone transcripts often read pretty unnaturally. Still, Trump's are... special, to say the least. 

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29 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Then I don't know why it's such a stretch for you to think that Bush thought he was doing the right thing. That doesn't change the fact that he was both stupid and morally wrong. 

ok, so what's the issue? that somehow makes it less cruel? 

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4 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Of course--and this is in no way a justification of Trump's inanity--it is good to keep in mind that people do not speak the way they write, and standalone transcripts often read pretty unnaturally. Still, Trump's are... special, to say the least. 

Yeah, that last interview with Maria Bartiromo was truly special, as I believe you mentioned upthread. And the transcript catapults it into "special" special, if you get my meaning.

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6 minutes ago, r'hllor's redrum lobster said:

ok, so what's the issue? that somehow makes it less cruel? 

No, that counter to your statement, it is fairly easy to understand why Dubya might have thought he was doing the right thing.

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1 hour ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Republicans are never going to vote Democrat anyway, and it's high time we called a spade a spade. Their party is made up of and led by out and out Nazis. That's just a fact, and sugar coating it doesn't make that medicine go down any better. 

Oh they aren't? I myself remained a registered Republican for over a decade after I started regularly voting for Democrats. And certainly there are many people out there who consider themselves Independents who, rightly or wrongly, will be turned off by Democrats calling all Republicans "Nazis" and so will be less likely to vote for Democrats because of that. 

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42 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, ok, when you see me on a street corner calling everyone who looks conservative a nazi, then you'd have a smidgeon of a point.  I'm on some forum of a defunct book series where the crowd tends to skew liberal.  I don't think would be Democrats are hanging out here.  

And in any case, I'm not going to sugar coat it for someone.  I'm not going to pretend that reality isn't reality.  The reality is that people who voted for Trump voted for someone who has been declared the leader of nazis.  This is truth.  If a Trump voter doesn't know that then they should.  Hiding this away does no one any good.

I’m not saying you specifically are, but I’m seeing it all over the place. The current political rhetoric of every day individuals is becoming incredibly toxic and I’m urging people not to feed into it. Like I told Mormont before, my fear is that a “boy cried wolf” situation might occur, and then it will become much harder to call out the actual Nazis.

And I’m not saying that you need to sugarcoat the core of your argument, but the way you craft the message matters.

37 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I have no problem labeling Bannon as such. Seems to me he prefers the term Nationalism, but when you boil down many of his beefs, you're typically left with White Nationalism, which as near as I can tell is a form of White Supremacy.

I actually think he’s something worse. I have no idea if he is a neo-Nazi or a white supremacist, but I do know that he’s willing to stir up their feelings to achieve his political goals, which is to destroy the Republic as we know it. And he seems to be incredibly effective at this.

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50 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

Yeah, ok, when you see me on a street corner calling everyone who looks conservative a nazi, then you'd have a smidgeon of a point.  I'm on some forum of a defunct book series where the crowd tends to skew liberal.  I don't think would be Democrats are hanging out here.  

 

Obviously the total number of people who have even looked at the US Politics thread on this particular board is so tiny as to be negligible for the entire body politic. However, I think you are very wrong to think there would never be an "would-be Democrats" hanging out here. In fact, several years ago we had an "angry young man" type who unfortunately died of a heart attack at a young age who made a radical shift from right wing to left wing politics while he was regularly interacting on this board. "Would be Democrats" as well as all sorts of other types can turn up where you least expect them.

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34 minutes ago, r'hllor's redrum lobster said:

ok, so what's the issue? that somehow makes it less cruel? 

I think that's debatable. But anyway, you're the one who brought it up. I just disagreed with you.

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2 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Republicans are never going to vote Democrat anyway, and it's high time we called a spade a spade. Their party is made up of and led by out and out Nazis. That's just a fact, and sugar coating it doesn't make that medicine go down any better. 

I don't think that is a fact at all.  No denying that there are some emboldened unsavory elements on the right, but to say the party is  'made up of nazi's' - I mean, look, I don't like them much either but that is ridiculous hyperbole.  

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30 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Obviously the total number of people who have even looked at the US Politics thread on this particular board is so tiny as to be negligible for the entire body politic. However, I think you are very wrong to think there would never be an "would-be Democrats" hanging out here. In fact, several years ago we had an "angry young man" type who unfortunately died of a heart attack at a young age who made a radical shift from right wing to left wing politics while he was regularly interacting on this board. "Would be Democrats" as well as all sorts of other types can turn up where you least expect them.

Agree. I myself have changed my views.  While I was socially liberal (mostly, it was an on-going process), I was a fiscal conservative and military/police hawk. A large part of it was that I was never really exposed to well reasoned, differing views on a regular basis before joining this board. In the beginning, my biggest complaint was the religious right hijacking the party, so I left and became an independent. As I learned more, thought more, I began to see where my true feelings really were, and what I believed to actually be the "right" things for government to do.

This veteran and former fed. agent has learned a lot here, broadened my horizons, became a full fledged democrat and has views that align 98% with Bernie Sanders.  It was a long trip from my Ronnie worship. (hey, I was 18 dumb, in the military and he gave us a huge pay raise (still well below poverty levels, but it was a start, and the start of my wrong path)

Edited by Lany Freelove Cassandra
to add the bold

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