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DanteGabriel

US Politics: flaking out and coming uncorked

400 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I don't know.  You seem to think previous links demonstrate your point when they don't.  Or that I'm fundamentally against your point which I'm not.  Or that I'm supposed to figure it out on my own event though I can't.  So, yeah, Nazis hate Jews.  They also hate Muslims.  Why this is controversial I don't know, but feel free to tell me why in the future.

Given that my efforts so far have failed to satisfactorily answer your as yet un-elaborated objections to a point of mine that you agree with but can't figure out the importance of (and keep mis-stating, even though I've outlined it clearly twice), I'm not seeing why I should do that.

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3 minutes ago, Horza said:

Given that my efforts so far have failed to satisfactorily answer your as yet un-elaborated objections to a point of mine that you agree with but can't figure out the importance of (and keep mis-stating, even though I've outlined it clearly twice), I'm not seeing why I should do that.

Ok, I've tried to avoid being hostile but fuck it.  So some Nazis have prioritized being antisemitic over anti-Islam.  That's your point, right?  Who gives a shit?  Does that make defending Jews more important than defending Muslims?  Like, seriously, what's your point here?  What policy implications are we supposed to stop that are particularly aimed at Jews?  Because I'm at a loss - especially in terms of foreign policy.  Your efforts thus far are not adequate, all you've done is assert one religion is more persecuted than another among Nazis, which is a pretty damn pointless argument considering they hate virtually everybody.

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On 10/27/2017 at 11:38 AM, Tywin et al. said:

The overwhelming majority of Republicans won’t, but a handful will, as the last election showed. However, that’s not the point. Democrats need to expand their voter base and the best way to do that is to appeal to those who didn’t vote. Screaming, “Nazi, Nazi, Nazi” won’t achieve that end.

Neither will ignoring it. Repiblicans who claim this isn't what they signed up for don't get a pass. They knew exactly what they were doing and they will do it again.

Don't want to be called a Nazi or Nazi sympathizer? Then start calling out your own party and voting accordingly. Silence only reaffirms the perception that all Republicans actually support what's going on.

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17 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

As long they don't  turn their malicious malevolent and mindless  stupidity into action and break the law , they have first amendment rights to express themselves.  In the long run these Nazi Fringe dwellers are not going to amount to a hill of beans. 

Murdering a woman with a car isn't breaking the law? Terrorizing Jewish people in their own house of worship isn't breaking the law?

Nazis are hiding behind the First Amendment in a blatant attempt to normalize their views. There is NOTHING normal about their views and they should never, ever be allowed to bring those views to the mainstream. Millions of people died to eradicate their horrors from the face of the Earth. Are we going to go through that again?

My grandfather fought in WWII, just like the fathers and grandfathers of most posters. He always said that the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. Is it going to come to that?

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Right now Nazi's are marching Shelbyville, Tennessee screeching 'Closed borders, White Nation, now we start the deportations."  

Such fine, fine people.  

 

(place puking emoji right here   XXXXX )

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23 hours ago, Ormond said:

Oh they aren't? I myself remained a registered Republican for over a decade after I started regularly voting for Democrats. And certainly there are many people out there who consider themselves Independents who, rightly or wrongly, will be turned off by Democrats calling all Republicans "Nazis" and so will be less likely to vote for Democrats because of that. 

I was a Republican until 2004 so I get it. 16 years as a Republican before they went off the reservation and became bats**t insane. 

However,  then is not now. There are more independents now, that's true. But let's face it, Republicans risk being kicked out of their club and called a RINO or worse if they don't toe the party line. It's way too polarized and us vs. them. 

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27 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Republicans risk being kicked out of their club and called a RINO or worse if they don't toe the party line.

Where is that 'brave' Senator Corker calling out the Nazi pukes in Shelbyville?   

>crickets<

 >crickets<

 >crickets<

crickets

all

the

way

down

 

 

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23 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I’m not saying you specifically are, but I’m seeing it all over the place. The current political rhetoric of every day individuals is becoming incredibly toxic and I’m urging people not to feed into it. Like I told Mormont before, my fear is that a “boy cried wolf” situation might occur, and then it will become much harder to call out the actual Nazis.

And I’m not saying that you need to sugarcoat the core of your argument, but the way you craft the message matters.

I actually think he’s something worse. I have no idea if he is a neo-Nazi or a white supremacist, but I do know that he’s willing to stir up their feelings to achieve his political goals, which is to destroy the Republic as we know it. And he seems to be incredibly effective at this.

This isn't about crying wolf.  These are actual facts.  Trump has been declared the defacto leader of nazis.  They Heil Trump him at every rally.  He defends them.  He has a really hard time disavowing them, and will back peddle once he does.  He lines his cabinet and adviser team with them or their allies. It's absurd to pretend none of this is happening.  No one is crying wolf.  The wolf is here.

If a person has a problem voting for someone who nazis have declared their leader, then they shouldn't vote for him.  Anyone stating facts isn't going to drive them there, they are already there.  

23 hours ago, Ormond said:

Obviously the total number of people who have even looked at the US Politics thread on this particular board is so tiny as to be negligible for the entire body politic. However, I think you are very wrong to think there would never be an "would-be Democrats" hanging out here. In fact, several years ago we had an "angry young man" type who unfortunately died of a heart attack at a young age who made a radical shift from right wing to left wing politics while he was regularly interacting on this board. "Would be Democrats" as well as all sorts of other types can turn up where you least expect them.

Look, I get it.  I was young and dumb once.  I grew up with a very tiny worldview and it was fundamentalist and conservative and while I started shedding that when I was a teenager, I still went into adulthood fairly ignorant and also conservative.  The shift in my education and worldview came from both being exposed to different types of folks as well as being given facts.  I would never have become a better person if people pretended like reality didn't actually exist.  I only vaguely knew who Bonesy was, but it seems to me that he wouldn't have been impressed with attempts to shield him from the truth in order to change his political views.  The truth is what changed my mind.  The truth here is that Trump has been declared the leader by nazis and he has done little if nothing to disavow that.  

18 hours ago, GAROVORKIN said:

So you apply denialism is anyone that doesn't agree with you then?  I think that a few years from now everything will still be much as it with the exception politics will be even more polarized then they are now.

 

Yes, because what you disagree with are verifiable facts.  

 

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5 hours ago, dmc515 said:

I suppose my objection is creating some type of hierarchy between Jews and Muslims in terms of which is more hated.  I have much (much) closer personal connection to those of the Jewish faith, but I still don't know why you think it makes much of a difference.  There's enough hate to go around with these fucks, and it does not change their ideology one way or another.

I'd have to guess the hierarchy here has to do with the perceived immediacy of the threat. Immigration is a hot-button, we have to do something about this now sort of issue, right? So Muslims get put higher up on the ladder in terms of threat or focus. I'd have to guess anti-semitism still ranks due to the historical significance and their perceived control of the media and Hollywood and the like, but that ship has already sailed.

 

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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4 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Also, and as much as I don't like being the one to write this, at the root of islamophobia are concerns that can't and shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Paris has seen some very traumatic events in the last years. Coincidentally, the National Front has cozied up to the Jewish community and tried to establish some form of working relationship with Israeli organizations. Calling these people nazis might help exposing them for what they truly are ; or it might play right into their hands since they have indeed taken their distance with antisemitism.

Now that is interesting. The idea of quasi-nazis and jews uniting against muslims? What a world we live in, eh?

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NBC now confirming.

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How anyone here or anywhere can say with a straight face (fingers?) that this evil regime hasn't done anything yet for anyone to worry about isn't a person of color, a woman, gay, with medical problems or even, really, interested in facts and rationality -- or paying attention.  They are both doing and destroying everything around us.

As for fascist - nazi - etc. -- how about this?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/will-it-soon-be-cnns-time-in-the-barrel

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-roger-stone-cnn-journalists-white-house-latest-twitter-a8024566.html

And etc.

Yet, hey, no worries.  Nothing happening here because reasons.  Really, Hillary won't be executed for colluding with the Russians to fix the last US POTUS election, right?  She'll be able to go to some other country without extradition agreements, right? admitting both her guilt and that she's a political exile -- something fascist countries' protesting politicians have long experienced.

O well, climate collapse will kill most of us soon anyway, right?  And, They will help! 

 

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Yeah that Roger Stone Tweet is brutal on a number of different levels. MegaCorps eating up media outlets is a huge problem and I don't think the government should allow these sorts of mergers or takeovers.

That said, do you really believe anything approaching that second bit could happen? No one is going to execute Hillary Clinton. Seriously.No one of importance is going to even suggest that as a possibility.

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1 hour ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

My grandfather fought in WWII, just like the fathers and grandfathers of most posters. He always said that the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. Is it going to come to that?

My grandfathers also fought in WWII and it is unfortunate that this evil is showing signs of life once more, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective: a small number of fools with discredited uniforms and slogans does not amount to a return. What made the Nazis terrifying is that they had an ideology, a party organization (including propaganda and paramilitary wings), significant corporate, military and intelligence support as well as the votes of a large fraction of the population (though not a majority -- they topped out at 37% and then more or less seized power). The people marching in uniforms have none of that -- the worst of them may be Nazi wannabes, but there's what, a few thousand of them? Given that the population is over 300 million and the vast majority of these are strongly opposed to them, there's no way they can be a serious threat.

That said, they are a symptom of a much larger problem and that one may be worrisome in the medium to long term. Political and economic interactions have always been at least partly based on appeals to immutable characteristics such as race, gender and ethnicity, but after WWII, Western nations made a serious attempt to tone this down. Unfortunately, what started as a drive for equality has deteriorated into an outright power struggle wherein various groups lay claim to resources and positions based on perceived grievances. Certain people (e.g. Steve Bannon) figured out that there is money to be made and power to be gained in making sure that no group is left out and they've mostly succeeded:

Quote

A majority of whites say discrimination against them exists in America today, according to a poll released Tuesday from NPR, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

"If you apply for a job, they seem to give the blacks the first crack at it," said 68-year-old Tim Hershman of Akron, Ohio, "and, basically, you know, if you want any help from the government, if you're white, you don't get it. If you're black, you get it."

More than half of whites — 55 percent — surveyed say that, generally speaking, they believe there is discrimination against white people in America today. Hershman's view is similar to what was heard on the campaign trail at Trump rally after Trump rally.

Of course this isn't an overall majority of the population and not every one of these people is willing to act on these beliefs, but still, this isn't a handful of fools in uniforms anymore -- a sufficiently competent opportunist could work with this to achieve much darker results than Trump did.

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32 minutes ago, Altherion said:

My grandfathers also fought in WWII and it is unfortunate that this evil is showing signs of life once more, but it is important to keep a sense of perspective: a small number of fools with discredited uniforms and slogans does not amount to a return. What made the Nazis terrifying is that they had an ideology, a party organization (including propaganda and paramilitary wings), significant corporate, military and intelligence support as well as the votes of a large fraction of the population (though not a majority -- they topped out at 37% and then more or less seized power). The people marching in uniforms have none of that -- the worst of them may be Nazi wannabes, but there's what, a few thousand of them? Given that the population is over 300 million and the vast majority of these are strongly opposed to them, there's no way they can be a serious threat.

That said, they are a symptom of a much larger problem and that one may be worrisome in the medium to long term. Political and economic interactions have always been at least partly based on appeals to immutable characteristics such as race, gender and ethnicity, but after WWII, Western nations made a serious attempt to tone this down. Unfortunately, what started as a drive for equality has deteriorated into an outright power struggle wherein various groups lay claim to resources and positions based on perceived grievances. Certain people (e.g. Steve Bannon) figured out that there is money to be made and power to be gained in making sure that no group is left out and they've mostly succeeded:

Of course this isn't an overall majority of the population and not every one of these people is willing to act on these beliefs, but still, this isn't a handful of fools in uniforms anymore -- a sufficiently competent opportunist could work with this to achieve much darker results than Trump did.

This is what many of us have been alarmed by for awhile and have been been increasingly vocal about for the last two years.  

 

Trump and Bannon have been counting this and while Trump hasn't gone full-frontal Nazi things are moving that direction.  

I mean fuck, my shithead republican boss believes that on Nov 4 some massive left-wing uprising is coming so he's holding up on his house with all his guns ready because some right wing nutjob Facebook post told him Black Lives Matter is coming for him.  

This is why you don't vote for a guy that courts Nazis or white supremacists.  This is why everyone should be concerned.

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

How anyone here or anywhere can say with a straight face (fingers?) that this evil regime hasn't done anything yet for anyone to worry about isn't a person of color, a woman, gay, with medical problems or even, really, interested in facts and rationality -- or paying attention.  They are both doing and destroying everything around us.

As for fascist - nazi - etc. -- how about this?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/will-it-soon-be-cnns-time-in-the-barrel

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-roger-stone-cnn-journalists-white-house-latest-twitter-a8024566.html

And etc.

Yet, hey, no worries.  Nothing happening here because reasons.  Really, Hillary won't be executed for colluding with the Russians to fix the last US POTUS election, right?  She'll be able to go to some other country without extradition agreements, right? admitting both her guilt and that she's a political exile -- something fascist countries' protesting politicians have long experienced.

O well, climate collapse will kill most of us soon anyway, right?  And, They will help! 

 

Pfft, climate collapse, the alien spacecraft (scout ship?) currently heading to earth that has been hiding its approach from earth by approaching behind the sun will clearly kill us all.

https://sciencesprings.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/from-jpl-caltech-small-asteroid-or-comet-visits-from-beyond-the-solar-system/

Edited by lokisnow
Hilariously wrong link posted, now fixed

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9 hours ago, Mikael said:

Who in the holy fuck said Nazis weren't evil? I don't even care how you guys label your sworn enemies (though I think it's truly moronic to think that you can gain any ground by pushing the moderates into the arms of your enemies). But the same people are hijacking every single US politics thread and I try to just scroll past it, but right now it's like 70% of the content.

I don't know. I don't remember posting that. Uh, bad night, le's say.

But yes, Nazis are evil, if we can agree on that I think we may be getting somewhere.

 

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U.S. Attorney of Virginia District Where Mueller Grand Jury is Impaneled Quits

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/dana-boente-resigns-as-us-attorney-for-eastern-district-of-virginia/2017/10/27/78fda97a-bb43-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?ICID=ref_fark&tid=pm_local_pop&utm_content=link&utm_medium=website&utm_source=fark&utm_term=.11614dbcbc1b

 

Apparently this has "Saturday Night Massacre" sort of implications should Rosenstein and a number of others recuse themselves in the event of Trump ordering a firing of Robert Mueller.

http://www.newsweek.com/dana-boente-eastern-district-virginia-resigns-mueller-russia-probe-695424

 

Is Trump starting to figure out how to play 3D chess? Doubtful, but I suppose it's not impossible.

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On 10/28/2017 at 2:39 PM, larrytheimp said:

I mean fuck, my shithead republican boss believes that on Nov 4 some massive left-wing uprising is coming so he's holding up on his house with all his guns ready because some right wing nutjob Facebook post told him Black Lives Matter is coming for him.  

All aboard the conservative crazy train.

Next stop: Nutville.

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11 hours ago, Mikael said:

Who in the holy fuck said Nazis weren't evil? I don't even care how you guys label your sworn enemies (though I think it's truly moronic to think that you can gain any ground by pushing the moderates into the arms of your enemies). But the same people are hijacking every single US politics thread and I try to just scroll past it, but right now it's like 70% of the content.

The question is what moderates? Nothing that is happening now is really unexpected given GOP attitude in the last decades. The people who have voted GOP (and to a large extent third party and non-voters) in national and state elections since basically Cheney are fully complicit in the disruptions caused by the current GOP government and congress.

Their apathy is more relevant a characterization than any moderacy. And if they look at the current state of the US, and think GOP can still offer a solution. I am sorry to see I cannot see how they could be called moderates.

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