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Why was Robert in Vale


Tygett Lannister

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Robert was born in 262 AC. He was fostered from and early age together with Ned in Vale by Jon Arryn. ASoIaF wiki says Steffon died in 278 AC and Robert and Stannis were present as it happened. At that time Robert was 16, so he was of age and he became Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Why did Robert than return to Vale and continued to be fostered by Jon Arryn when he is of age and has Stormlands to rule? And who exactly is ruling Stormlands from 278-281 AC? Stannis is two years younger which means he would turn 16 in 280 AC and before that, who, Cressen?

You think this is writer error or just confirmation that Lord Paramounts were plotting to overthrow Aerys? But even if so it doesn't makes much sense, Robert could send Stannis or even Renly instead to be ward/hostage of Jon Arryn. Also isn't it better for Robert to be in Stormlands preparing for rebellion (even though they weren't sure if it was happening at all) and stabilizing his power as Lord Paramount.

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I see no evidence that Robert or Steffon before him were part of any anti-Aerys or anti-Targaryen plot leading up to Harrenhal, or leading up to the murder of Rickard, Brandon, and the others who were summoned to King's Landing and executed.

As for why Robert returned to the Vale,
 

Quote

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions


Robert's relative Harbert may have been castellan of Storm's End when Robert was away before becoming king.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Harbert

 

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There is huge amount of marriages between Lord Paramounts: Baratheon - Stark, Tully - Lannister (planned), Tully - Stark, Stark and Baratheon wards at Arryn's court. It seems like Baratheon, Arryn, Stark, Tully and maybe Lannister were plotting to remover Aerys otherways they had no reason to marry/ send wards as they did.

Aha thanks for quote.

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43 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

There is huge amount of marriages between Lord Paramounts: Baratheon - Stark, Tully - Lannister (planned), Tully - Stark, Stark and Baratheon wards at Arryn's court. It seems like Baratheon, Arryn, Stark, Tully and maybe Lannister were plotting to remover Aerys otherways they had no reason to marry/ send wards as they did.

Aha thanks for quote.

The only two marriages actually aimed against the Targaryens were Ned and Jon marrying the Tully sisters to bring Hoster into the war MONTHS into the war. The idea that the fosterings and betrothals that were made over the course of a decade were aimed against the Targs doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It is projecting backwards in hindsight.

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2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The only two marriages actually aimed against the Targaryens were Ned and Jon marrying the Tully sisters to bring Hoster into the war MONTHS into the war. The idea that the fosterings and betrothals that were made over the course of a decade were aimed against the Targs doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It is projecting backwards in hindsight.

What do Starks gain by marrying Lyanna to Robert?

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20 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What do Starks gain by marrying Lyanna to Robert?

One of the best chances Rickard Stark had to see his own grandchildren or great-grandchildren on the Iron Throne. Steffon's mother was a Targaryen, and his aunt was originally betrothed to Prince Duncan when he was heir to the Iron Throne. Similarly, Prince Jaehaerys (II), next in line to the throne after Prince Duncan, was originally betrothed to Celia Tully. The Baratheons and Tullys were a couple broken betrothals away from their daughters being queens. Rickard betrothed his son to the daughter and eldest child of House Tully, and his daughter to the Lord of Storm's End. If anything, it indicates he was trying to get closer to the royal family, not plotting against them, or even Aerys alone. If Steffon had had a daughter instead of Robert, she would have been a likely candidate to marry Prince Rhaegar. Children of Robert and Lyanna would have a good chance of landing a Targaryen spouse. 

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4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The only two marriages actually aimed against the Targaryens were Ned and Jon marrying the Tully sisters to bring Hoster into the war MONTHS into the war. The idea that the fosterings and betrothals that were made over the course of a decade were aimed against the Targs doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It is projecting backwards in hindsight.

Probably not, but this is exactly the kind of thing that Varys would be whispering into Aerys' ear: that Tully and Stark are planning a wedding; Lannister and Dorne were also in play, as was Lannister and Tully. And we can all see the power bloc that has existed since time immemorial between Gardner/Tyrell, Hightower and Redwyne, which fortunately remain loyal to the king, for now.

If you look back in history, matches between the great houses are few and far between.

So if Varys convinces Aerys, who is already paranoid after Duskendale, that the great houses are looking to unite through marriage, that might be enough to drive Aerys to ever more extreme acts, eventually leading to rebellion.

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6 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

Are you suggesting that as a slow learner he had to repeat classes?

:P

 

Maybe. 

But having that he was good friends with Jon Arryn and probably had a bromance with Ned, and both these dudes were in the Vale, why not stay in that region and have a castellan take charge of Storm's End while he produces lots of Mya Stones? He does sound like a very 'relaxed' or an elusive political leader as a King, letting his council do all the hard work, maybe he was also like this during his rule of the stormlands?.

 This is a good question though. I wish George could give a semi canon response.

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21 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

What do Starks gain by marrying Lyanna to Robert?

The chance to have Stark-Baratheons rule the Stormlands? That's enormous prestige, not to mention that it would give you much more influence in terms of fellow Lord Paramounts and the King himself.

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Rickard Stark was doing what Tywin Lannister did not have the patience to do. Tywin would settle for no less than marrying Cersei directly to a Targaryen prince. Rickard betrothed his only daughter to the son and heir of one of Aerys's oldest and most trusted friends. He could hardly have chosen a more Targaryen-friendly match. Had the betrothals all gone through, there is a good chance Rickard would have had a descendant on the Iron Throne before Tywin.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Rickard Stark was doing what Tywin Lannister did not have the patience to do. Tywin would settle for no less than marrying Cersei directly to a Targaryen prince. Rickard betrothed his only daughter to the son and heir of one of Aerys's oldest and most trusted friends. He could hardly have chosen a more Targaryen-friendly match. Had the betrothals all gone through, there is a good chance Rickard would have had a descendant on the Iron Throne before Tywin.

Good point. And the Targaryens had married the Baratheons pretty recently, so they clearly had acceptable blood. It's weird, but the idea that Rickard may have actually favoured improving Stark relations with the Targaryens (and maybe even marrying into them, as you suggest) rarely seems to be considered. People generally seem to believe that Rickard had anti-Targaryen sentiments, or at least was wary of them.

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33 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Good point. And the Targaryens had married the Baratheons pretty recently, so they clearly had acceptable blood. It's weird, but the idea that Rickard may have actually favoured improving Stark relations with the Targaryens (and maybe even marrying into them, as you suggest) rarely seems to be considered. People generally seem to believe that Rickard had anti-Targaryen sentiments, or at least was wary of them.

Yeah, people tend to assume that Rickard's southron ambitions were defensive or hostile to Aerys and House Targaryen. But I think that is working backwards in hindsight. Even Tywin, whose relationship with Aerys had been deteriorating for years, was still trying to marry into the royal family up to Jaime being announced for the Kingsguard in 280 or 281 right before Harrenhal.

Rickard, on the other hand, has no notable negative interaction with Aerys to speak of (until his death). Rickard's visit to King's Landing in 264 seemed to awaken Aerys's interests in the North and the Wall in a positive way, and Rickard's fostering of Ned at the Eyrie in around 271 occurred at a time when there is no hint of defensiveness or hostility between Stark and Targaryen.

That said, Aerys obviously did eventually turn against the Starks. But I think that occurred pretty late in the game, starting when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty, and with Aerys's lickspittle lords suggesting that it meant Rhaegar was including the Starks in his plots against the king.

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On 10/26/2017 at 8:13 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Rickard Stark was doing what Tywin Lannister did not have the patience to do. Tywin would settle for no less than marrying Cersei directly to a Targaryen prince. Rickard betrothed his only daughter to the son and heir of one of Aerys's oldest and most trusted friends. He could hardly have chosen a more Targaryen-friendly match. Had the betrothals all gone through, there is a good chance Rickard would have had a descendant on the Iron Throne before Tywin.

That good chance is only Aerys II, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys need to die without children for Lyanna or her children to sit on Iron Throne. That is not very likely ... uh wait unless you plan to rebel against the main branch of royal family and back Baratheon branch.

On 10/26/2017 at 7:27 PM, WSmith84 said:

The chance to have Stark-Baratheons rule the Stormlands? That's enormous prestige, not to mention that it would give you much more influence in terms of fellow Lord Paramounts and the King himself.

Children of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark (who will be called Lyanna/lady Baratheon) will be Baratheons. He would gain some prestige but prestige is nothing really and alliance that he would have no use of (being so far apart).

Ideally you want to marry your children to nearby important lords (Tully, Arryn, Lannister or any of their strong vassals) or to your strongest vassal lords (Manderly, Umber, Bolton, Karstark ...) to have them like you and be loyal. Your main goal in feudal society is to make vassals follow you only then you can make gains.

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On 10/26/2017 at 4:51 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Yeah, people tend to assume that Rickard's southron ambitions were defensive or hostile to Aerys and House Targaryen. But I think that is working backwards in hindsight. Even Tywin, whose relationship with Aerys had been deteriorating for years, was still trying to marry into the royal family up to Jaime being announced for the Kingsguard in 280 or 281 right before Harrenhal.

I think we have to consider the source when we think about Rickard's ambitions. Barbrey Dustin is still pretty pissed about how things went down with Brandon and she is laying the blame on Rickard and his maester. This is what she thinks she knows. 

I think that Rickard's dealings with the other lords had more to do with getting the north out of isolation than actual ambition. 

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2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

That good chance is only Aerys II, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys need to die without children for Lyanna or her children to sit on Iron Throne. That is not very likely ... uh wait unless you plan to rebel against the main branch of royal family and back Baratheon branch.

Children of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark (who will be called Lyanna/lady Baratheon) will be Baratheons. He would gain some prestige but prestige is nothing really and alliance that he would have no use of (being so far apart).

Ideally you want to marry your children to nearby important lords (Tully, Arryn, Lannister or any of their strong vassals) or to your strongest vassal lords (Manderly, Umber, Bolton, Karstark ...) to have them like you and be loyal. Your main goal in feudal society is to make vassals follow you only then you can make gains.

Rickard didn't necessarily intend for Robert and Lyanna's children to become King or Queen in their own right, but a daughter of those two would be a very suitable potential bride for Rhaegar's children, for example. And Robert becoming King naturally was not out of the realm of possibility; Aegon the Unlikely becoming King was, well, more unlikely but it happened. Marrying someone who might (even if it's only a small chance) one day be King seems like a decent bet, particularly when that lord controls an entire region of the continent.

Obviously you want to marry your children to your local lords to strengthen your hold over them. Rickard still had two healthy sons to marry off. Lady Dustin even comments on how she might have ended up with Ned Stark had Brandon not died.

And if Rickard desired greater influence over the King, marrying his family into other LP families is a good way to do that. Not to mention the fact that Aerys was personally very close to Robert's father.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that Rickard planned to rebel, it's just that his actions are not inherently indicative of rebellion.

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