Who was the rightful king in the TWoFK?

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Dragonstone was a traditional seat of the heir to the king, but under Targaryen dynasty, and had nothing to do with throne of King's Landing, after Targaryens were overthrown.

During Robert's reign, Stannis established there a new house - House Baratheon of Dragonstone. This house was a cadet branch of House Baratheon of Storm's End. In hierarchy of Baratheon's family, Storm's End's seat was higher than Dragonstone's seat.

Also when Robert became King of 7K, he also established new house, House Baratheon of King's Landing. That's why he gave his original title, Lord of Stormlands from House Baratheon of Storm's End, to Renly. 

If Robert will die without heirs, then his successor will be Lord from his original house - House Baratheon of Storm's End, and that's Renly. While Stannis was placed below Renly. He may have any claims over Iron Throne, only if Robert will die without legitimate children, and if head of higher house, main branch of Baratheon family, Renly will also die without heirs. Then, and only then Stannis will have a right to make a claim of Iron Throne. But not because he's Prince of Dragonstone (who has no relevance to succession of Iron Throne by family members of House Baratheon of King's Landing, like it was originally between Targaryen King from King's Landing and Targaryen Prince from Dragonstone, who was his successor apparent), but because he's the only remaining relative of Robert Baratheon of House Baratheon of King's Landing, and there's no heir left in main house of Storm's End.

Doesn't matter what kind of significance Dragonstone's seat had during Targaryens' reign, because Targaryens' reign ended. And under Robert's reign, it's just a seat of cadet branch of main branch of Baratheon's of Stormlands.

Hierarchy of Baratheon's family goes like this:

House Baratheon of King's Landing - overlord,

House Baratheon of Storm's End - main branch,

House Baratheon of Dragonstone - cadet branch.

Except thats not how it worked. You're blatantly making up Robert disinheriting Stannis, that never happened, and that was never claimed nor written in any of the books on the matter. Even so, Dragonstone was the seat of the heir since Aegon I was crowned, it was even such while House Baratheon married into House Targaryen and it remained that while Steffon was on the small council, given his place by Aerys. Renly was given Storms End, thus becoming the Lord Of Storms End, but so what? That's all he was, Robert never put into motion, before, during or after his reign, that Storms End would now be the seat of the next King. So in no way was Renly ever the rightful king. He simply had the title of Lord Of Storm's End, that was it and all he was, Hence why, as has been already mentioned, it's why he brought up the line of succession after Roberts death to Ned, he'd felt he'd make a better king, than the next in line, Stannis, because he was too much of a soldier. And Ned flat out told him, that Stannis was the rightful heir.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The bit about Tyrells and Redwynes comes from anti-Stannis sources: Varys' words to Eddard and Viserys' daydreaming.

How are they anti Stannis? And why does this make them wrong?

 

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The very fact that "the cautious ones" sat back and waited for the winner speaks volumes of the low amount of respect Renly was getting in his own homeland. They were technically his vassals and, were he truly a popular reader, he would have no trouble in rousing all of them.

They were technically Joffrey's vassals as well. 

Multiple sources in the books claim that Renly is popular, Stannis himself being a primary one. Is Stannis also lying?

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Let's say an inconvenient truth:

How is anything you are saying an inconvenient truth? You made up a lot of points that the books contradict. 

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 

out of those 20k cavalry, 16000 joined Stannis and they were from the Stormlands Houses that had fought for Renly (Caron, Connngton, Errol, Estermont, Morrigen) but also from the Reach Houses Florent (2000 mean alone), Willum, Varner, Mullendore, Fossoway (both branches). If any of the other Reach Houses had 1000 cavalry with it (after all, Reach fields the most knights, being the home of chivalry), at least 7000 of them are Reachmen and 9000 are Stormlanders.

What does this have to do with your original point? You made a claim that a bunch of Stormland Houses supported Stannis that never supported Renly. That was what I replied to. 

I have no idea what point you are trying to even make here. When they thought Renly dead they picked a new cause, when they thought Renly was alive again many abandoned Stannis. I'm really not seeing your point here. 

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

There is no Florent child named Renly, but a Norcross one.

Is his mother not a Florent?

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

My antipathy for Renly has nothing to do with his sexuality. 

In a post about his popularity you brought up him being gay. What on earth does his sexuality have to do with him being popular. 

You might not think your antipathy has anything to do with him being gay, but to everyone else it is pretty clear. There are many Stannis fans like yourself (not all of them) who bring up Renly's sexuality at every opportunity. Many of you seem to be obsessed about it. It is not subtle the point many of you are making, even if many of you don't realise it. 

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

The Foxgloves are sworn to the Farmans of Fair Isle.

Are they? Source?

And can you prove that the House supports Stannis and not some random knight?

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

I was referring to his conspiracy to install Margaery as Queen.

Which has what to do with him knowing about Joffrey being a bastard? He does not like Cersei, he believes that she is a danger to himself, something that Cersei herself confirms in her chapters, so wants her removed from power. 

He has every incentive in the world to tell either Ned or Robert that he knows, the fact that he does not plus his words in ACOK make it pretty clear that he does not. 

So far you have failed to actually prove the two points that you made that a) Stannis being unpopular is a myth and b ) Renly knew about the incest. 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How are they anti Stannis? And why does this make them wrong?

 

They were technically Joffrey's vassals as well. 

Multiple sources in the books claim that Renly is popular, Stannis himself being a primary one. Is Stannis also lying?

How is anything you are saying an inconvenient truth? You made up a lot of points that the books contradict. 

What does this have to do with your original point? You made a claim that a bunch of Stormland Houses supported Stannis that never supported Renly. That was what I replied to. 

I have no idea what point you are trying to even make here. When they thought Renly dead they picked a new cause, when they thought Renly was alive again many abandoned Stannis. I'm really not seeing your point here. 

Is his mother not a Florent?

In a post about his popularity you brought up him being gay. What on earth does his sexuality have to do with him being popular. 

You might not think your antipathy has anything to do with him being gay, but to everyone else it is pretty clear. There are many Stannis fans like yourself (not all of them) who bring up Renly's sexuality at every opportunity. Many of you seem to be obsessed about it. It is not subtle the point many of you are making, even if many of you don't realise it. 

Are they? Source?

And can you prove that the House supports Stannis and not some random knight?

Which has what to do with him knowing about Joffrey being a bastard? He does not like Cersei, he believes that she is a danger to himself, something that Cersei herself confirms in her chapters, so wants her removed from power. 

He has every incentive in the world to tell either Ned or Robert that he knows, the fact that he does not plus his words in ACOK make it pretty clear that he does not. 

So far you have failed to actually prove the two points that you made that a) Stannis being unpopular is a myth and b ) Renly knew about the incest. 

Viserys, as an exiled Targaryen, hates Robert and all his kin and dreams that all the Houses that supported the Mad King in the Rebellion would fight for him, which simply is not the case.Only Oberyn had tried to rouse Dorne in his name, a move that Doran suppressed for his own reasons.

The Stormlords were not Joffrey's vassals. They are vassals to the Lord of Storm's End, who is not Joffrey, but Renly. Therefore, this is irrelevant

Renly is popular in the sense that he is charming and appears as a second Robert. However, all those people who would cheer for him in a tourney would not support him for the kingship. Out of the Reach, which he has gained through his marriage to Margaery, his base of support is very thin.

You had claimed that 20k Stormlanders declared for Renly, which I corrected. This does not change the fact that a lot of Stormlands Houses (Bolling, Buckler, Fell, Gower, Grandison et al.) fought for Stannis at the Blackwater and some of them even after that debacle.

As for the Foxgloves, I am sorry, but I confused them with the Cliftons. They are the vassals of the Farmans who are fighting for Stannis.

Renly Norcross' mother is Delena Florent, true, but his father is a Norcross. The Norcrosses were Renly followers, since they came from the Reach.

In fact, to me it matters not what Renly's sexual preferences were. The sole reason I mentioned Loras being his lover was to explain the mutual admiration they share for each other.

When Garlan Tyrell appeared in Renly's armor, a great number of Stannis' men were already dead, due to the wildfire explosion. We have the names of the lords and knights who were captured in the last stages of the battle (among them Bonifer Hasty, Red Ronnet Connington, Alesander Staedmon, Aurane Waters, etc.) and we know some of the fatalities (Guyard Morrigen, Herbert Bolling, Davos' four sons, etc.) However, no Stormlord is thanked by Joffrey after the battle and the specific piece of info about Renly's former supporters turning against their comrades comes from the unreliable Dontos Hollard.

Finally, Renly had no reason to tell Ned about the incest, because Ned would support Stannis as King, for such was his devotion to the law.

 

 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

15 hours ago, Megorova said:

Robert's heir apparent is whoever is Lord of Stormlands, and that is Renly.

This is almost comical.  You keep saying this.  We understand your point.  It's not true, because there is NOTHING in the text to support this.  You haven't quoted anything from the books to support your point, because there is NONE.  

And yes, please go to the show threads if you want to talk about or mention the show.  It is irrelevant.

[Nittanian]

3 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

This is almost comical.  You keep saying this.  We understand your point.  It's not true, because there is NOTHING in the text to support this.  You haven't quoted anything from the books to support your point, because there is NONE. 

Also, So Spake Martin: "The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later)." 

 

[Megorova]

4 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

This is almost comical.  You keep saying this.  We understand your point.  It's not true, because there is NOTHING in the text to support this.  You haven't quoted anything from the books to support your point, because there is NONE. 

A Clash of Kings, Prologue.

“Your brother has been the Lord of Storm’s End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—”

“His,” Stannis broke in, “when by rights they should be mine. I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert’s enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutiful as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert’s thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm’s End and its incomes to Renly. Storm’s End belonged to House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne.”

...

“Robert did you an injustice,” Maester Cressen replied carefully, “yet he had sound reasons. Dragonstone had long been the seat of House Targaryen. He needed a man’s strength to rule here, and Renly was but a child.” <- that's not a reason not to give both to Stannis. Because even though Renly was Lord of Stormlands, while he was living in King's Landing, Storm's End was managed by his castellan. The same could have done, with Stannis being both Lord of Stormlands and Prince of Dragonstone. He could have lived at Dragonstone, while Storm's End was managed by his castellan.

Robert made Stannis Prince of Dragonstone, but that's not a reason not to give him Stormlands too. One doesn't exclude the other.

59 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

"The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later)." 

They are Baratheons and not Targaryens. They siezed Targaryen's Iron Throne, but they didn't adopted all of Targaryens customs. House Baratheon of Dragonstone is not a successor of House Baratheon of King's Landing, because House Baratheon of Stormlands is.

Robert was Lord of Stormlands, and when he became King of 7K, and established there new house - House Baratheon of King's Landing, he gave his original title to Baratheon from Stormlands - Renly, and not to Baratheon Lord of Dragonstone - Stannis.

Which created a precedent for future references. If matters of inheritance were desided by court, Renly would have inherited Iron Throne after Robert, same as he inherited after him title of Stormlands Lord.

Quote

until Joff's birth a few years later

If Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent of House Baratheon of King's Landing, then after Joffrey was born, title of DP was supposed to be taken from Stannis and given to Joffrey. But it didn't happen, because under Baratheon's rule, DP wasn't King's heir apparent, like it was during Targaryens reign.

In case if head of House Baratheon of King's Landing will die, then his heir is his oldest son, after him next son. After that, whoever is next in line of Robert's family, and based on the previous precedent of inheritance, next in line is his brother Renly. 

Joffrey and Tommen weren't Princes of Dragonstone. Even after Stannis died.

And Stannis claimed that he should become King of 7K, not because he was Prince of Dragonstone, and Joffrey wasn't, but because Joffrey wasn't Robert's son.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

10 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

Also, So Spake Martin: "The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later)." 

 

Nice one! 

There's no refuting that. 

 

[Pikachu101]

The rightful king is legally Joffrey and technically Stannis, there's nothing more to say on the matter. Robb and Balon both failed to win independence, the Targaryens lost their rights to the throne, and Renly was doing a Duke of Clarence with the help of the Tyrells. 

[Megorova]

49 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

There's no refuting that. 

During Targaryens reign Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent. So what? Targaryens also intermarried their children. Though Joffrey or Tommen didn't married with their sister Myrcella. If they took over Targaryens customs, then they should have married. And they should have given title of Dragonstone's Prince to Joffrey, after he was born. And when Joffrey became King of 7K, then title of DP was supposed to be given to Tommen.

The fact that neither Joffrey nor Tommen weren't Princes of Dragonstone, nevertheless they both were crowned as Kings of 7K, proves that title of Dragonstone's Prince has nothing to do with inheritance of Crown, during Baratheon's reign.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

16 minutes ago, Megorova said:

During Targaryens reign Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent. So what? Targaryens also intermarried their children. Though Joffrey or Tommen didn't married with their sister Myrcella. If they took over Targaryens customs, then they should have married. And they should have given title of Dragonstone's Prince to Joffrey, after he was born. And when Joffrey became King of 7K, then title of DP was supposed to be given to Tommen.

The fact that neither Joffrey nor Tommen weren't Princes of Dragonstone, nevertheless they both were crowned as Kings of 7K, proves that title of Dragonstone's Prince has nothing to do with inheritance of Crown, during Baratheon's reign.

So GRRM is wrong?

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Also, So Spake Martin: "The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later)." 

 

 

[Megorova]

11 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

So GRRM is wrong?

About what?

[Wolf of the Steppes]

18 minutes ago, Megorova said:

About what?

You've got to be kidding me.  

[Megorova]

1 minute ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

You've got to be kidding me.  

No, I'm not.

Could you clarify what you meant?

[Wolf of the Steppes]

2 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, I'm not.

Could you clarify what you meant?

You've been arguing that Renly was Robert's heir.  That SSM quote clearly means your wrong.  

Was Renly the Lord of the Baratheon ancestral seat? Yes, and thus would follow his line--nobody was arguing that. Does that make him heir to the Iron Throne? NO

[velo-knight]

If consent of the governed is what's important, then the legitimate monarchs in TWo5K and in the Westerosi political scene generally are, in order, Mance Rayder (of the Wildlings), Robb (of the North and Riverlands), Euron (of the Ironborn), Balon (of the Ironborn), Renly (of the Reach and Stormlands) and Daenerys (of her khalasar and freedmen - and arguably of Meereen).

If force and occupation is what's important, Joff and Tommen are legitimate. The same goes if continuity of government is more important, since Robert's reign was a Lannister government wearing Baratheon colors.

If blood claim to the Iron Throne is what's important, then the legal monarchs are Stannis -> Shireen -> Renly -> "Aegon VI" -> Daenerys. And no, don't give me any of that "Targaryen attainder" crap: this is a hereditary monarchy. The Targs and the Baratheons are cousins, and the Baratheons successfully usurped the throne to which they had a legitimate dynastic claim. It was rebellion, not revolution, and doesn't take away from the dynastic claim of the fallen branch, especially as it's only a recent event, none of the Targaryen pretenders are culpable for the Rebellion, and they are both close relatives and have extensive blood connections to the throne. 

[Megorova]

35 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

You've been arguing that Renly was Robert's heir.  That SSM quote clearly means your wrong.  

Was Renly the Lord of the Baratheon ancestral seat? Yes, and thus would follow his line--nobody was arguing that. Does that make him heir to the Iron Throne? NO

GRRM created a plot hole, and didn't even realised it himself.

As it's said later in the same article: "Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Giving them to his brothers instead was another instance of his great, but rather careless, generosity."

So this - "The Targaryen heir apparent had always been titled Prince of Dragonstone. By making Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone, Robert affirmed his brother's status as heir (which he was, until Joff's birth a few years later).", in combination with the fact that neither of Robert's children ever became Princes of Dragonstone, and after Joffrey's birth that title wasn't taken away from Stannis, and even after his death wasn't given to Tommen, when Joffrey became King of 7K, means that for being crowned as King of 7K, it isn't necessary to be Prince of Dragonstone, and also title of Dragonstone's Prince doesn't give it's holder right to be crowned as King of 7K (because Stannis was Prince of Dragonstone, and that title NEVER was taken away from him, nevertheless he wasn't crowned).

Paradox. Or GRRM's mistake. If GRRM didn't complicated everything to the point where he himself made mistakes in line of inheritance, instead he should have made Robert to keep those titles for his children.

This is paradox:

Prince of Dragonstone is heir apparent.

Stannis is Prince of Dragonstone.

Joffrey is not Prince of Dragonstone.

Tommen is not Prince of Dragonstone.

But those two that weren't DP, were crowned as Kings.

While Prince of Dragonstone Stannis wasn't crowned.

Which means "Prince of Dragonstone = heir apparent" is wrong. Proved by two examples - Joffrey and Tommen.

 

The other part of paradox, is not only that when Joffrey was born, DP's title wasn't taken away from Stannis, but also Robert gave his original title, Lord of Stormlands, to his youngest brother Renly, and not to second in line Stannis. Which in itself created an inheritance precedent (according to which Renly and not Stannis became Robert's successor), that could be used in the future.

If Robert really intended for Stannis to be his successor, after his own children, but first in line before Renly, then after birth of his children, he was supposed to take DP title from Stannis, gave it to his firstborn son Joffrey, and also take title of Stormlands Lord from Renly and given it to Stannis. But he did neither of those.

As we already established "Prince of Dragonstone = heir apparent" is wrong, which means that Stannis had no rights at all, while Renly was Robert's successor, next in line after Robert's children, based on the fact that once before he already inherited directly after Robert.

GRRM isn't wrong, he's just partially thoughtless - unnoticeably to himself, created an inheritance paradox. Or maybe this mix was intentional, because this precendent created for Renly additional arguments, for claiming Iron Throne after Robert, because once before he already became Robert's successor, overstepping his older brother Stannis.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

*washes hands*

[Megorova]

26 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

*washes hands*

You're giving up too easily.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

During Targaryens reign Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent. So what? Targaryens also intermarried their children. Though Joffrey or Tommen didn't married with their sister Myrcella. If they took over Targaryens customs, then they should have married. And they should have given title of Dragonstone's Prince to Joffrey, after he was born. And when Joffrey became King of 7K, then title of DP was supposed to be given to Tommen.

The fact that neither Joffrey nor Tommen weren't Princes of Dragonstone, nevertheless they both were crowned as Kings of 7K, proves that title of Dragonstone's Prince has nothing to do with inheritance of Crown, during Baratheon's reign.

 Dude you're wrong, get over it. All that you've bolded, it simply shows Renly was given Storms End, Stannis was upset because as heir he feels he should've gotten that too. Of course Stannis was pissed Renly was given Storms End, it was the more profitable hold as opposed to Dragonstone, Storms End was a seat that would've been able to gather more resources, in terms of men and harvest than Dragonstone was. Yet it STILL wasn't the seat of the next in line, that was still Dragonstone, nothing in the text supports Renly being the rightful king or Stannis being disinherited by Robert of his place in succession.

[DarkBastard]

On 11/1/2017 at 3:59 PM, Megorova said:

After Robert, next Lord of Stormlands became Renly, and not Stannis even though he was older. There was no need to take away from Stannis that title, Robert could have given him both, but he didn't. Lords Paramounts of Stormlands: Steffon, Robert, Renly.

Stannis was removed from succession line of Baratheons. Isn't it obvious?

No, it isn't.  To end this idiotic debate, name one piece of literary evidence that states Renly was ahead of Stannis in the line of succession.  We all have already shown you several examples in the text that Stannis was the next in line.  You can't just say "because I think so" and expect us to take it as fact.  The Hand of the King (Eddard Stark at the time) stated clearly and concisely that Stannis is the next in line.  Eddard knew Stannis was not given Storm's End, but gave zero credence to your lunatic reasoning.  No "maybe", no "possibly".  Zero.  Try to refute that.  

Again...L-i-t-e-r-a-r-y   E-v-i-d-e-n-c-e.  No more opinions.