Who was the rightful king in the TWoFK?

[Megorova]

51 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Yet it STILL wasn't the seat of the next in line, that was still Dragonstone, nothing in the text supports Renly being the rightful king or Stannis being disinherited by Robert of his place in succession.

6 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

name one piece of literary evidence that states Renly was ahead of Stannis in the line of succession

Stannis at all wasn't in line of Robert's succession, he was Renly's successor.

Baratheon brothers by age: 1. Robert, 2. Stannis, 3. Renly.

Lords Paramount of Stormlands:

1. Steffon Baratheon.

2. Robert Baratheon.

3. Renly Baratheon.

Stannis was overstepped. Renly inherited Robert's title. He also inherited from him Stormlands, and castle Storm's End.

Stannis didn't inherited from Robert NOTHING. Previous holder of DP title was Rhaegar Targaryen. Dragonstone Island and castle never were Robert's possessions. Not his personal posessions, like Stormlands or Storm's End were. It was just an island and a castle, like any other property that belonged to Crown.

The fact that after Joffrey's birth, title of DP wasn't taken away from Stannis, and given to Joffrey, proves that title of Dragonstone's Prince doesn't make its holder heir apparent of Iron Throne, like it was under Targaryen reign. If Prince of Dragonstone = heir apparent of Robert Baratheon, then there was 15+ years for Robert to take that title from Stannis and give it to Joffrey. But he didn't. And the only reason for that, is that it wasn't necessary, because, unlike it was during Targaryen reign, when Robert became King, he changed that custom. Robert's heir apparent was his older son Joffrey, and it wasn't necessary for him to have title of Dragonstone's Prince.

After Robert became King, Baratheon House divided on three branches: HB of KL - overlord, HB of Stormlands, HB of Dragonstone. Prior creating HB of KL, Robert belonged to HB of Stormlands. And when he established HB of KL, and became Baratheon of KL, he gave his previous title of Lord Paramount of Stormlands, and his land and castle, to his brother from HB of Stormlands, Renly Baratheon. Even though his second by age brother was Stannis. Furthermore Stannis was removed from HB of Stormlands. And new Baratheon House created by him, HB of Dragonstone, wasn't an overlord of HB of Stormlands, it was their cadet branch. 

If Stannis and Renly went to court, the judge would give the Crown to Renly, based on previous precedent of inheritance in their family. Renly is Robert's heir, he inherited from him title, lands, and castle. In case of Robert's death, without legitimate children as his successors, everything his would be given to his heir. And who inherited everything that was his before? -> Renly!

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

Lord Paramouncy of the Stormlands is NOT equal to succession of the Iron Throne. Period.

[Pikachu101]

2 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Lord Paramouncy of the Stormlands is NOT equal to succession of the Iron Throne. Period.

I don't understand why it's even up for debate 

[Nittanian]

Renly uses military strength to justify his claim for the Iron Throne, not that he somehow comes before Stannis in the line of succession.

Quote

"I have twice that number here," Renly said, "and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm's End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea."

"It would seem that you are the one who has forgotten Stannis," Catelyn said, more sharply than she'd intended.

"His claim, you mean?" Renly laughed. "Let us be blunt, my lady. Stannis would make an appalling king. Nor is he like to become one. Men respect Stannis, even fear him, but precious few have ever loved him."

"He is still your elder brother. If either of you can be said to have a right to the Iron Throne, it must be Lord Stannis."

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer." He swept a hand across the campfires that burned from horizon to horizon. "Well, there is my claim, as good as Robert's ever was. If your son supports me as his father supported Robert, he'll not find me ungenerous. I will gladly confirm him in all his lands, titles, and honors. He can rule in Winterfell as he pleases. He can even go on calling himself King in the North if he likes, so long as he bends the knee and does me homage as his overlord. King is only a word, but fealty, loyalty, service . . . those I must have." (ACOK Catelyn II)

 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Stannis was given and made lord of Dragonstone by Robert for his part in the rebellion, Stannis held Storms End during the siege, and when Robert was crowned, he's the one who told Stannis to build a fleet and seize Dragonstone. Which Stannis managed to do whilst Targaryen loyalists and the Prince & Princess were fleeing. Stannis was angry over Robert gifting Storms End to Renly, simply because it was the wealthier land. GRRM himself confirms that the former childless Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis, and meant it as him being the next successor to the throne. He followed the Targaryen tradition, GRRM says again that Robert didn't mean it as a slight, did it to publicly acknowledge Stannis as his heir. The quote is in the thread for christs sake yet you continue to completely fabricate this lie of Robert disinheriting Stannis in favor of Renly. 

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

45 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I don't understand why it's even up for debate 

Me neither. I just added my voice to yours.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Lord Paramouncy of the Stormlands is NOT equal to succession of the Iron Throne.

And I'm not saying that it is. What I'm saying is slightly different. Renly is Robert's successor, based on the fact that he already inherited from him everything his, once before. HIM, not Stannis. Stannis received Dragonstone, but he didn't INHERITED it from Robert. Robert never was Prince of Dragonstone. Stannis didn't inherited anything from Robert. Even though he was older than Renly.

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

"He is still your elder brother. If either of you can be said to have a right to the Iron Throne, it must be Lord Stannis."

Cat's reasoning is that Stannis is older. But even she says - either of you. She isn't saying - your claim is groundless.

Basically their situation is similar to the one, that was between Daeron II Targaryen and Daemon Blackfyre. The difference is that Renly was never a bastard, and his 'sword' is title of Stormlands Lord, given to him by Robert. 

1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Stannis was angry over Robert gifting Storms End to Renly, simply because it was the wealthier land. GRRM himself confirms that the former childless Robert gave Dragonstone to Stannis, and meant it as him being the next successor to the throne. He followed the Targaryen tradition, GRRM says again that Robert didn't mean it as a slight, did it to publicly acknowledge Stannis as his heir. The quote is in the thread for christs sake yet you continue to completely fabricate this lie of Robert disinheriting Stannis in favor of Renly. 

The outcome was this - even though Stannis is Prince of Dragonstone, he isn't Robert's heir, his son Joffrey is. Which means that that title (DP) is meaningless. Basically what two Baratheon brothers have, is that Stannis has a castle on top of a barren rock, and small number of subjects, while Renly has Stormlands and a few dozens of big houses as his bannermen. Stannis is King of a rock, while Renly is King of a Kingdom. And status of Prince of Dragonstone gave Stannis nothing.

Making Stannis Prince of Dragonstone was Robert's hoax. Because for how long, after becoming King of 7K, Robert remained without a son? He knew that he will have a child soon. He was fertile. He already had 3 bastard children by the time he married with Cersei. And the only reason that Joffrey was born three years after his parents' marriage (that's for how long Stannis was Robert's heir apparent - 3 years), and not sooner, is because Cersei's didn't wanted to give birth to his children. If not her countermesures, Stannis would have lost his heir apparent status, not more than 9 months after receiving it.

And after Joffrey was born, Stannis became Prince of nothing. The fact that title wasn't given to Joffrey, means that its original meaning 'heir apparent of IT' became canceled. When Robert died, people crowned Joffrey, and not Prince of Dragonstone. That title lost its meaning. So what will happen in case if all Robert's children will die, who then will be Robert's successor? NOT Stannis. Because Stannis is from House Baratheon of Dragonstone, and that is not and never was Robert's house. His house was House Baratheon of Stormlands. And the only Baratheon remaining in that house is Renly. Which means that in case if Robert's children will die, or not his, then his sole heir is Renly. Stannis is not Robert's heir at all, they are from different houses. Robert and Renly are also from different Baratheon houses, but Renly's house is Robert's original house, so if there will be no heirs in House Baratheon of Kings Landing, then the heir will be made Baratheon from Robert's original house.

Inheritance rights amongst royalty, are a very complicated and disputable matter, and every small detail could be used to challenge it. Stannis' claim was very weak, his sole reasoning is that he's older brother, so the crown should be given to him. But there was already an earlier precedent of inheritance in their family, when he didn't got title, that was supposed to be his by birthright, but instead was given to Renly. This example could be used by maesters and Small Council, to make Renly a legitimate King of 7K.

 

You think what you want, I still think that Renly's claim was better than Stannis', he had stronger legal base for his claim.

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

He is not FROM House Baratheon of Dragonstone, he founded the branch after Robert gave him the fortress as his seat. 

House Baratheon of King's Landing has nothing to do with Storm's End and the same applies to House Baratheon of Storm's End in reference to the succession. To put it on simple terms, when Robert became King, he founded a new royal House. He gave Dragonstone to Stannis, but we don't know if he did it as a slight or because he needed a strong hand to hold an area notoriously loyal to the Targaryens. Renly being the Lord of Storm's End has nothing to do with the succession to the Throne.

[Trigger Warning]

Renly didn't inherit anything, Robert gave up his lordship of Storm's End and invested the castle and title in Renly as such House Baratheon of King's Landing and House Baratheon of Storm's End are two distinct entities and would have continued to diverge had things played out differently. Renly does have a claim to the Iron Throne, he's the King's brother but he was never the heir apparent or considered close to being so. However saying that I'm not convinced that the granting of Dragonstone had much to do with the succession either, neither Renly nor Stannis were ever granted the rank of prince, the succession before Joffrey's birth probably didn't come up all that much and I doubt that Robert granting Dragonstone to Stannis was a display of acknowledgement, Stannis would naturally be the heir presumptive I doubt Robert would give two shits about confirming that. 

Point is disregarding bastards Stannis is legally Robert's heir but in reality Renly has a blood claim to the throne and enough backing to enforce it and if you're getting into the legality of things Robert claimed the Iron Throne on flimsy blood ties to the Targaryens, so Stannis is the next step down the pole to that Targaryen blood claim and Robert giving away the lordship of Storm's End has no bearing on that, he could have given it to a peasant if he wanted to, it was his to give. 

 

[Pikachu101]

I think Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone because he needed a commander for the royal navy, remember they had to fight the Greyjoys straight after Robert's Rebellion. 

Back to OP's question; as readers we know Joffrey's a bastard thus Stannis is the legal king, but as far as Westeros is concerned Joffrey's legitimate whilst Stannis is a usurper. 

[DarkBastard]

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Stannis at all wasn't in line of Robert's succession, he was Renly's successor.

Baratheon brothers by age: 1. Robert, 2. Stannis, 3. Renly.

Lords Paramount of Stormlands:

1. Steffon Baratheon.

2. Robert Baratheon.

3. Renly Baratheon.

Stannis was overstepped. Renly inherited Robert's title. He also inherited from him Stormlands, and castle Storm's End.

Stannis didn't inherited from Robert NOTHING. Previous holder of DP title was Rhaegar Targaryen. Dragonstone Island and castle never were Robert's possessions. Not his personal posessions, like Stormlands or Storm's End were. It was just an island and a castle, like any other property that belonged to Crown.

The fact that after Joffrey's birth, title of DP wasn't taken away from Stannis, and given to Joffrey, proves that title of Dragonstone's Prince doesn't make its holder heir apparent of Iron Throne, like it was under Targaryen reign. If Prince of Dragonstone = heir apparent of Robert Baratheon, then there was 15+ years for Robert to take that title from Stannis and give it to Joffrey. But he didn't. And the only reason for that, is that it wasn't necessary, because, unlike it was during Targaryen reign, when Robert became King, he changed that custom. Robert's heir apparent was his older son Joffrey, and it wasn't necessary for him to have title of Dragonstone's Prince.

After Robert became King, Baratheon House divided on three branches: HB of KL - overlord, HB of Stormlands, HB of Dragonstone. Prior creating HB of KL, Robert belonged to HB of Stormlands. And when he established HB of KL, and became Baratheon of KL, he gave his previous title of Lord Paramount of Stormlands, and his land and castle, to his brother from HB of Stormlands, Renly Baratheon. Even though his second by age brother was Stannis. Furthermore Stannis was removed from HB of Stormlands. And new Baratheon House created by him, HB of Dragonstone, wasn't an overlord of HB of Stormlands, it was their cadet branch. 

If Stannis and Renly went to court, the judge would give the Crown to Renly, based on previous precedent of inheritance in their family. Renly is Robert's heir, he inherited from him title, lands, and castle. In case of Robert's death, without legitimate children as his successors, everything his would be given to his heir. And who inherited everything that was his before? -> Renly!

Again refusing to acknowledge the Hand of the King stating that Stannis is next in line.  Still not providing a single piece of literary evidence proving your theory.  

You are simply wrong, and should re-read the books. Or take a reading comprehension course, then re-reading.

[SirArthur]

On 1.11.2017 at 7:05 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

Robert won the Iron Throne the same way the Targaryens did: conquest.

Because I am so fed up with the "he won the right by conquest" argument, a few comments:

1. The IT was not created by the right of conquest. A good portion of the 7K fell to the title owner, but that has nothing to do with the title. It's like claiming the title of Caesar was won by right of conquest. Conquest was involved but that is not how it works.

2. Robert did not win the IT by conquest. He participated in the removal of the ruling line and was the next in succession. He had a claim. That are two different things entirely. 

[Regular John Umber]

37 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Because I am so fed up with the "he won the right by conquest" argument, a few comments:

1. The IT was not created by the right of conquest. A good portion of the 7K fell to the title owner, but that has nothing to do with the title. It's like claiming the title of Caesar was won by right of conquest. Conquest was involved but that is not how it works.

2. Robert did not win the IT by conquest. He participated in the removal of the ruling line and was the next in succession. He had a claim. That are two different things entirely. 

 

Agree 100%.

[DarkBastard]

I have the final word, with as much proof as Megorova has provided for his argument:

I just flew to New Mexico and had breakfast with GRRM, he said Stannis was next in line.

My proof:

 

 

(hint: there's nothing here, because Megorova also has nothing to prove his argument!)

[Knight of the Winged Pig]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Because I am so fed up with the "he won the right by conquest" argument, a few comments:

1. The IT was not created by the right of conquest. A good portion of the 7K fell to the title owner, but that has nothing to do with the title. It's like claiming the title of Caesar was won by right of conquest. Conquest was involved but that is not how it works.

2. Robert did not win the IT by conquest. He participated in the removal of the ruling line and was the next in succession. He had a claim. That are two different things entirely. 

Robert added his descent from the female line of House Targaryen to further back his claim. Robert won the Throne because he won the Trident, because the collective will of the nobility was that Aerys and his decendants had overstepped their boundaries and because of the fact that Rhaelle Targaryen was his grandmother. It is a combination of those factors. Neither of them can stand alone. All three are needed to comprehend what the Rebellion was.

[SirArthur]

21 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

 All three are needed to comprehend what the Rebellion was.

Just wanted to comment on the conquest argument. Others can discuss about the purpose of the rebellion and where it started and if it was truly about Robert's claim or why Aerys II wanted Ned's head. 

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

He is not FROM House Baratheon of Dragonstone, he founded the branch after Robert gave him the fortress as his seat. 

House Baratheon of King's Landing has nothing to do with Storm's End and the same applies to House Baratheon of Storm's End in reference to the succession. To put it on simple terms, when Robert became King, he founded a new royal House. He gave Dragonstone to Stannis, but we don't know if he did it as a slight or because he needed a strong hand to hold an area notoriously loyal to the Targaryens. Renly being the Lord of Storm's End has nothing to do with the succession to the Throne.

When Robert became King, he founded new house - House Baratheon of King's Landing. And his heir, and next King was supposed to be from this house. But if he had no heirs in HBofKL, then where government should look to chose his next successor? -> in Robert's original house - HBofSE. And Stannis is not a part of that house anymore, while Renly is a sole representative of Baratheon's family of SE.

1. Renly is the only Robert's relative that is left in Robert's original house.

2. Renly already inherited once before what was Robert's - Lord's title, lands, castle.

3. Renly is young and healthy, while Stannis in the last 15 years fathered only one child. And that child is a girl, furthermore she's ill. It's likely that her condition may worsen over time, or even if she will live long, it's very questionable if she will be able to bear children, or that her children won't get same disease from her, or won't die soon after birth. Or that any lord would want to marry with a girl, whose illness may be contagious. Renly with his gayness is more preferable candidate to become King, than Stannis with his possible infertility, and single sick heiress.

4. Renly's house is one of the major royal houses of 7K, with a 300 years of history, and many generations of Baratheons. While Stannis' HBofDS is only 15 years old, and its representatives are Stannis and his sick daughter. Even though Renly was unmarried, and had no children, his situation was way better than Stannis'.

5. Renly has spent many years in court of KL, while Stannis was strangeled on Dragonstone. Renly has diplomatic skills, and knowledge of 7K's political map, and all major figures. 

6. Renly has more resources, and more people. His military strength is exceeding Stannis' many times.

7. Renly is welcoming and generous host. With him as King of 7K, his people won't ever bore. He will often hold tournaments, balls, feasts, and other entertainment events. But if Stannis will become King, with him on Iron Throne, the Red Keep will become a gloomy and boring place. He will establish a military regime over 7K, and will entertain his people, with Sunday burnings of everyone whom he doesn't like. And let's be honest - Stannis doesn't like anyone. With him as King of 7K, it will be a step back to Aerys' regime.

If matter who should be crowned as next King of 7K, would have been decided by government (maesters, Small Counci, High Septon, Wardens), then Renly would've been chosen over Stannis. The only person in court, who supported Stannis, was Ned Stark. If who should be King, would've been decided by military strength, then it was also Renly's win.

Also Stannis' only argument to support his claim, is that he's an older brother. So what? Rhaegel Targaryen was older than his brother Maeker I, nevertheless he wasn't crowned. Renly's supporters can claim that Stannis is crazy. Baratheon brothers are 25% Targaryens, so it is possible that one of them inherited Targaryen's madness. He's burning people alive, what other evidence is needed? Who would want another Mad King to rule in 7K?

[The Sunland Lord]

Stannis Baratheon. 

After Robert's death, he is the next in line. 

[SirArthur]

17 minutes ago, Megorova said:

When Robert became King, he founded new house - House Baratheon of King's Landing. And his heir, and next King was supposed to be from this house. But if he had no heirs in HBofKL, then where government should look to chose his next successor? -> in Robert's original house - HBofSE. And Stannis is not a part of that house anymore, while Renly is a sole representative of Baratheon's family of SE.

Are there any special Westeros house agreements I am missing ? Because real history sure works different. 

[Dood]

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

When Robert became King, he founded new house - House Baratheon of King's Landing. And his heir, and next King was supposed to be from this house. But if he had no heirs in HBofKL, then where government should look to chose his next successor? -> in Robert's original house - HBofSE. And Stannis is not a part of that house anymore, while Renly is a sole representative of Baratheon's family of SE.

[..]

If matter who should be crowned as next King of 7K, would have been decided by government (maesters, Small Counci, High Septon, Wardens), then Renly would've been chosen over Stannis. The only person in court, who supported Stannis, was Ned Stark. If who should be King, would've been decided by military strength, then it was also Renly's win.

Also Stannis' only argument to support his claim, is that he's an older brother. So what? Rhaegel Targaryen was older than his brother Maeker I, nevertheless he wasn't crowned. Renly's supporters can claim that Stannis is crazy. Baratheon brothers are 25% Targaryens, so it is possible that one of them inherited Targaryen's madness. He's burning people alive, what other evidence is needed?

None of these arguments are valid, the custom is that the older brother would receive the crown if the king dies without heir. If he was unable to rule (too young, or too sick), a regent would be named until he gets better, but the younger brother would only inherit in the case where the older dies without heir.

Also, Renly didn't inherit anything, he has been given the Lordship of Storm's End and Stormlands because Robert, as a King, has the right to give any land and titles to pretty much whoever he wants, as long as it makes sense.