Valonqar Revealed

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

56 minutes ago, PCK said:

The dream in Storm implies Cersei will die before Jaime. 

There is nothing there to suggest that.  Well, given that Tywin, Joffrey and the rest of the Lannisters with her are either dead or end up dying later in the book (although, we do not know if the other "golden haired" people are with them are alive or dead), she is also the only one of them carrying a torch and light in the series represents life. Jaime's life ended when the fire in his sword faded. But both are based off of some speculation.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

8 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Good oservations, it's still theory until actually confirmed, and not exactly "canon", but I like your reasoning and appreciate the research you've put in to it.

Heh.  IK, but after it's done and in the likely event that Arya kills Cersei then it will become cannon.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You definitely put in some work here. Nice analysis. I watched both videos & you've got me convinced. As much as I don't want Tyrion to have Jaime killed, Tyrion is going down that path. I think the whole "laughing" thing explains some of Tywin's irrational hatred toward Tyrion as well. Tywin's dream was to not be laughed at & to have children that are not laughed at & then he has this dwarf child that waddles when he walks & gets laughed at all the time. 

I really wish I had more to add because this particular prophecy is of great interest to me but I really can't dispute anything you said. 

I would ask one question though - maybe something minor but it has always hung me up in Maggy's prophecy: Why does she say "the" valonqar & not "your" valonqar? 

I've also always disputed it being Jaime on the ground that he can't wrap 2 hands around Cersei's throat but I think the face that hand & hands in valyrian is the same word sets the precedent for there to be some wiggle room here & I suppose if we get technical he does have 2 hands, just not 2 human hands. 

Congrats - again very good analysis. 

Thank you, the fact that I get just one person to appreciate it is very rewarding to me.

The thing is, I do not think there is going to be any actual strangling going on. I personally believe it is going to be poison that will "choke the life from her".

In regards to the whole "your/the valonqar"  my mind instantly goes to three probable reasons: 1) "the" adds more ambiguity to whether or not it is going to be Jaime/Tyrion (when it's, in a way, a combination of both) and 2) if it is going to be Arya as Jaime, then it is probably saying that it isn't actually her little brother, but the one that strikes me as the most probable reason is 3) "the valonqar" as in "little brother" quite literally means "little" as in "smaller" brother.  As in saying "the valonqar" is saying "the smaller one of the two".

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

12 hours ago, zandru said:

Good points! Even worse for her, Arya actually dragged her mother's three-day dead body to shore (as Nymeria), where the Brotherhood w/o Banners happened upon it. Good thing Nym didn't see the "resurrection."

Oh damn I forgot about that part.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

40 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Thank you, the fact that I get just one person to appreciate it is very rewarding to me.

The thing is, I do not think there is going to be any actual strangling going on. I personally believe it is going to be poison that will "choke the life from her".

In regards to the whole "your/the valonqar"  my mind instantly goes to three probable reasons: 1) "the" adds more ambiguity to whether or not it is going to be Jaime/Tyrion (when it's, in a way, a combination of both) and 2) if it is going to be Arya as Jaime, then it is probably saying that it isn't actually her little brother, but the one that strikes me as the most probable reason is 3) "the valonqar" as in "little brother" quite literally means "little" as in "smaller" brother.  As in saying "the valonqar" is saying "the smaller one of the two".

Nice. I like the 3rd option as well. It makes much more sense to say "the smaller brother" rather than "the little brother" & coupled with the fact that it's actually Arya & not either brother fits nicely. 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

50 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Nice. I like the 3rd option as well. It makes much more sense to say "the smaller brother" rather than "the little brother" & coupled with the fact that it's actually Arya & not either brother fits nicely. 

Right. A simple play on words but I think it fits nicely.  I am currently working on the 3rd video "Mercy".

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Right. A simple play on words but I think it fits nicely.  I am currently working on the 3rd video "Mercy".

Awesome. Can't wait to watch it! 

[Lollygag]

On 10/27/2017 at 5:06 PM, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

Not sure how relevant to your theory this is, but great find! I noticed shortly ago that there's a pattern of paired laughing and weeping Lannisters.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 10/27/2017 at 11:45 PM, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Reminder too:  Arya is the only one to experience both the beheading of Ned Stark as well as the aftermath of the Red Wedding.

You forgot the Hound, for the accuracy's sake.

(But it's neither of them. How is Cersei supposed to guess "Arya Stark disguised as your brother Jaime"? Like, seriously, how?)

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You forgot the Hound, for the accuracy's sake.

(But it's neither of them. How is Cersei supposed to guess "Arya Stark disguised as your brother Jaime"? Like, seriously, how?)

Cersei won't guess it's Arya. She will think it's jaime...

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

You forgot the Hound, for the accuracy's sake.

(But it's neither of them. How is Cersei supposed to guess "Arya Stark disguised as your brother Jaime"? Like, seriously, how?)

Ah yes, the hound.  I added that detail in my reddit post.  Yes it is Arya.  To tie into the whole "Arya is death":

Quote

And the seventh face... the Stranger was neither male nor female, yet both, ever the outcast, the wander from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable.  Here the face was a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes.  It made Catelyn uneasy.  She would get scant comfort there.

Arya is described as having an oval/long face, she was referred to as a boy throughout the books and she also becomes "no one", she is an outcast because she is a tomboy which is why she likes Jon Snow, she has wandered all over Westeros and then went over to Essos. And there was a famous warrior in the Age of Heros named Symeon Star-Eyes who had was a blind warrior that put star jewels in his eyes.  Arya went blind and had a similar fighting style when she was the Cat of the Canals.

But the direct text evidence I have recently found is in the exact same chapter when Catelyn is praying to the gods (in A Clash of Kings):

Quote

 

Did your old gods ever answer you. Ned? she wondered.  When you knelt before your heart tree, did they hear you?

Flickering torchlight danced across the walls, making the faces seem half-alive, twisting them, changing them...

The Warrior was... Jaime Lannister and Jon snow.  She even glimpsed Arya in those lines, just for an instant.

 

 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Cersei won't guess it's Arya. She will think it's jaime...

Exactly.  By the way, I am actually going to revise the valonqar video and put it into one whole entire thing.  I've quite literally figured out how the series is going to end.  It encompasses the valonqar, lightbringer, and Azor Ahai.  I know who is going to kill Ser Gregor Clegane (it's not the Hound) and I know why it is going to happen.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Exactly.  By the way, I am actually going to revise the valonqar video and put it into one whole entire thing.  I've quite literally figured out how the series is going to end.  It encompasses the valonqar, lightbringer, and Azor Ahai.  I know who is going to kill Ser Gregor Clegane (it's not the Hound) and I know why it is going to happen.

Awesome! I can't wait to watch it! 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

On 10/30/2017 at 6:32 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Awesome! I can't wait to watch it! 

I've got the complete theory plus more.  Arya being the valonqar also fulfills the Lightbringer prophecy.  The "driving a sword through a captured lion" means Arya is going to give Cersei the gift of mercy.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

I've got the complete theory plus more.  Arya being the valonqar also fulfills the Lightbringer prophecy.  The "driving a sword through a captured lion" means Arya is going to give Cersei the gift of mercy.

I'll look it up tonight! Thanks! 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'll look it up tonight! Thanks! 

I got you right here:

 

 

[Ser Maverick]

I appreciate your analysis but I really can't get behind it myself and think some of the connections made between quotes aren't really anything.

Spoiler

However, speaking of the show and playing devil's advocate, if the S8 leaks are to be believed it is Arya that kills Cersei, albeit using Qyburn's face.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

The fact that George was very careful not to have Jaime end up on Arya's list leads me to believe that Jaime will outlive Cersei. The show could still use this theory to kill Cersei, but in the books, a person needs to be dead for someone to use their face. 

 

[LynnS]

I don't have a clue anymore.  There have certainly been many interesting ideas including that the valonqar is actually a torture device itself.  But I'm inclined to think the valonqar is someone other than Jaimie specifically because Cersei's dreams of the valonqar and Dany's vision in the House of Undying.  We still don't know what will happen to Jaimie after his confrontation with Lady Stoneheart but I don't think he will be sent to kill Cersei.  I don't think he will see Cersei again.

Cersei's dreams become increasingly disturbing:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

"No. Please. She never . . . I sang, I only sang . . ."

Lord Qyburn ran a hand up the Blue Bard's chest. "Does she take your nipples in her mouth during your love play?" He took one between his thumb and forefinger, and twisted. "Some men enjoy that. Their nipples are as sensitive as a woman's." The razor flashed, the singer shrieked. On his chest a wet red eye wept blood. Cersei felt ill. Part of her wanted to close her eyes, to turn away, to make it stop. But she was the queen and this was treason. Lord Tywin would not have turned away.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Not all the doors were closed. I will not look, Dany told herself, but the temptation was too strong.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany's gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting

Maggy tells Cersei that she will die at the hands of the valonqar. 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VI

"I know." She thought of Joffrey, clawing at his neck. In his last moments he had looked to her in desperate appeal, and a sudden memory had stopped her heart; a drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame, a croaking voice that spoke of crowns and shrouds, of death at the hands of the valonqar.

Or by the hands of the valonqar as in strangulation.  Is Cersei an unreliable narrator?

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

Will the valonqar personally do the deed or have someone else do it? Is this literal - Jaimie is missing a hand?  Is choking the life from someone literal or figurative?  Is her obsession with Tyrion choking the life out of her?  Is someone using her obsession with the valonqar, invading her dreams, to choke the life out of her?  Has this character shown up anywhere in the text?

If Dany's vision of Cersei in the HoU is true; who are the four rats surrounding her?  Qyburn, Littlefinger, Varys and one other?     

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

On 11/11/2017 at 3:26 AM, Ser Maverick said:

I appreciate your analysis but I really can't get behind it myself and think some of the connections made between quotes aren't really anything.

  Reveal hidden contents

However, speaking of the show and playing devil's advocate, if the S8 leaks are to be believed it is Arya that kills Cersei, albeit using Qyburn's face.

 

Examples?