Valonqar Revealed

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

I do not mean that it is speculation, it seems to me that it is cannon in the book that I know who the valonqar is. 

I have created two videos out of a three part series.  Be warned, they are lengthy but eye opening:

The Valonqar Revealed Part I:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4-0Zp2nAa0

The Valonqar Revealed Part II: Lannister Dreams "Who are you?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYm63goBjaA

Feedback is much appreciated.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

And yes, the show is partially included, but can be disregarded.  I believe the endpoint is the same (because the valonqar was hinted at in the second book), but the approach is different in the show and the books.  And if you enjoy both, then you have the best of the both worlds.

[Dorian Martell's son]

5 hours ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

I do not mean that it is speculation, it seems to me that it is cannon in the book that I know who the valonqar is. 

I have created two videos out of a three part series.  Be warned, they are lengthy but eye opening:

The Valonqar Revealed Part I:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4-0Zp2nAa0

The Valonqar Revealed Part II: Lannister Dreams "Who are you?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYm63goBjaA

Feedback is much appreciated.

the videos are too long to watch. who do you think it is?

[ChuckPunch]

Ditto above, tl:dw. Give us a summary to know if your theory holds water.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

the videos are too long to watch. who do you think it is?

If you have time to watch a game of thrones episode, you have time to watch the two videos.  But I'll try my best to explain.

Arya. Arya as Jaime. Tyrion is going to be the one who plans Cersei's assassination using Arya. After meeting Symon Silver Tongue in ACoK, Tyrion has sex with Shae and then talks to Varys.  He remarks that he always dreamt that he would be rich enough to hire a faceless man to kill his sweet sister. Symon Silver Tongue's "Hands of Gold" part plays a role in tying it all together, but I'll spare you the detail and encourage you to watch the videos at another time to get the nuances.

In both of Jaime's dreams in ASoS and AFfC, he encounters people in cowled robes.  The first dream it was the men in spears leading him to his doom.  And he turns around and asks "Who are you?" He gets no response. Then when he gets shoved into the pit, he inquires where he is. All the voices of the past Lannisters answer him, but Tywin's voice was most prominent. The other part of the dream is important as well, but again I'll try to spare you the details.

Second dream his mother is in a cowled robe, dressed as a Silent Sister. In AFfC "Who are you?" is revealed, before Jaime's dream, as the question of the game of faces in Arya's chapter when she is training and in Pate's chapter (the prologue for A Feast) when Pate asks the alchemist, who he has met before but does not recognize at this point because he has a different face, who ends up killing him (presumably because he is a faceless man):

Quote

"Who are you?"

"A stranger. No one. Truly."

The Faith of the Seven originated from Essos/Andalos, and the Stranger is the God of death in the Faith of the Seven, which recognized by the faceless men as a version of the Many-Faced Gods. Onto Jaime's dream:

Quote

That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father’s corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier.  "Sister?" he said. But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes.

“Sister,” he said, “what would you have of me?” His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememe. “I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back.

“Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.” “Who are you?” He had to hear her say it. “The question is, who are you?”

...

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”

He was at the Sept with his father's body there. There are two orders that use cowled robes: the Faceless Men and the Silent Sisters. The Silent sisters serve the Stranger, and the Stranger is the god of death in the Faith of the Seven and the Faceless men acknowledge this as a form of the Many-Faced god. Joanna is essentially dressed as death. When Jaime asks "What would you have of me?"  "memememe" is echoed in the Sept, as if it were to say that Joanna/death were saying that it wants Jaime.  This is underscored by Joanna reiterating the question with more emphases to Jaime:

Quote

“The question is, who are you?”

The phrase "Who are you?" is in the first line of the Rains of Castamere, the song Tywin (who they are standing over) created to immortalize the destruction of House Reyne and serve as a sign of Lannister pride and power.  So, Joanna is essentially "poking fun" at that while also playing the game of faces with Jaime, indicating Jaime is going to be used as a faceless man (which is hinted at later in another dream).

But onto the "Tywin never liked being laughed at/doesn't want his daughter and son being laughed at".

There are two other Lannister dreams, the one that precedes Jaime's in ASoS (not the one of his mother, but the one of him being poked into a pit): Cersei's dream in her first PoV chapter ever.  In, the night Tywin was shot and killed by Tyrion, AFfC:

Quote

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all. The courtiers were brightly colored mice below. Great lords and proud ladies knelt before her. Bold young knights laid their swords at her feet and pleaded for her favors, and the queen smiled down at at them. Until the dwarf appeared as if from nowhere, pointing at her and howling with laughter. The lords and ladies began to chuckle too, hiding their smiles behind their hands. Only then did the queen realize she was naked.

Horrified, she tried to cover herself with her hands. The barbs and blades of the Iron Throne bit into her flesh as she crouched to hide her shame. Blood ran red down her legs, as steel teeth gnawed at her buttocks. When she tried to stand, her foot slipped through a gap in the twisted metal. The more she struggled the more the throne engulfed her, tearing chunks of flesh from her breasts and belly, slicing at her arms and legs until they were slick and red, glistening.

And all the while her brother capered below, laughing.

She wakes up and is paranoid about Tyrion killing her, finds out about him escaping and sneaking to the tower of hand through a tunnel and killing Tywin, she gets paranoid about him being in the walls, and fears him laughing at her. Cersei's paranoia that Tyrion is the valonqar is a self-fulfilling prophecy, which GRRM stated about prophecies:

Quote

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

This dream is before Jaime's dream of Joanna, and then Jaime's dream of Joanna happens, and then Tyrion's in A Dance with Dragons:

Quote

That Night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as read as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jamie, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

There is a theme of Tyrion being laughed at by those he cares about throughout the books (for instances, when Shae reveals that she would call Tyrion "my Giant of a Lannister" in his trial, the laughter from the court room, including Cersei, was emphasized.) But after Tyrion wakes up from his dream, he then recalls the night he killed Shae, the first time they met and had sex, the first time he met Tysha and their first time.  Then he tried to recall her face, only to have his father's face while he was on the privy pop up and he relived killing him.  Tyrion's downfall from when he killed his father to him brooding over his family in ADwD is leading his story arch to him killing off his family, ending his father's legacy except through himself, flipping the "Rains of Castemere" on Tywin (not killing off every Lannister of course, Tyrion isn't ruthless like Tywin) and becoming a great source of irony. The reason why I think Tyrion is going to flip the Rains of Castamere narrative on his father is because of after Jaime reveals the truth about Tysha, Tyrion hits Jaime:

Quote

"Oh, you've earned more than that, Jaime.  You and my sweet sister and our loving father, yes, I can't begin to tell what you've earned.  But you'll have it, that I swear to you.  A Lannister always pays his debts.

Then Tyrion goes onto sneak into the Tower of the Hand, kills Shae (cue "Hands of Gold are always cold"), then finds his father on the privy:

Quote

He found his father where he knew he'd find him, seated in the dimness of the privy tower, bedrobe hiked up around his hips.  At the sound of the steps, Lord Tywin raised his eyes.

Tyrion gave him a mocking half bow. "My Lord"

Which reflects the Rains of Castamere lyrics, and then after the exchange about Tysha and Tyrion shooting the crossbow:

Quote

"You . . . you are no . . . no son of mine."

"Now that's where you're wrong, Father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small. Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch."

He is not only literally a smaller version of Tywin, but he's going to do what Tywin did to the Reynes to his own family line in a smaller manner.

Then there is Arya on Needle in AFfC:

Quote

Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell's grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan's stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow's smile

There are also parallels between Arya and death, and I'm working on the third part of the video series called "Mercy".  The show is pretty clear about Arya being the valonqar as well. She was sent on a redemption mission to kill the actor who played Cersei Lannister.  In the books she plays a character named "Mercy".  The Faceless Men, and others, give the gift of death, they call it "the gift of mercy".  Arya is going to give Cersei the gift of Mercy. Just watch the videos if you can.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

Arya is going to serve as the justice Ned Stark could not bring to Cersei Lannister.

[Dorian Martell's son]

10 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

If you have time to watch a game of thrones episode, you have time to watch the two videos.  But I'll try my best to explain.

Really? 

 

7 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Arya is going to serve as the justice Ned Stark could not bring to Cersei Lannister.

I like this idea 

[zandru]

7 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Arya is going to serve as the justice Ned Stark could not bring to Cersei Lannister.

Sounds good. Cersei's been number one on Arya's list since early in Book 1. Cowls and whoareyous nowithstanding.

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

25 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Really? 

It is an hour total, so why not?

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

25 minutes ago, zandru said:

Sounds good. Cersei's been number one on Arya's list since early in Book 1. Cowls and whoareyous nowithstanding.

Mhm. I believe it was GRRM's plan all along.

Reminder too:  Arya is the only one to experience both the beheading of Ned Stark as well as the aftermath of the Red Wedding.

[Dorian Martell's son]

38 minutes ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

It is an hour total, so why not?

because it isn't game of thrones
reading your summary took a couple of minutes on a break between takes. WAY less than an hour 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

36 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

because it isn't game of thrones
reading your summary took a couple of minutes on a break between takes. WAY less than an hour 

Yea.  I'm planning on finishing up the last video and then posting that, then making a full detailed text post.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

You definitely put in some work here. Nice analysis. I watched both videos & you've got me convinced. As much as I don't want Tyrion to have Jaime killed, Tyrion is going down that path. I think the whole "laughing" thing explains some of Tywin's irrational hatred toward Tyrion as well. Tywin's dream was to not be laughed at & to have children that are not laughed at & then he has this dwarf child that waddles when he walks & gets laughed at all the time. 

I really wish I had more to add because this particular prophecy is of great interest to me but I really can't dispute anything you said. 

I would ask one question though - maybe something minor but it has always hung me up in Maggy's prophecy: Why does she say "the" valonqar & not "your" valonqar? 

I've also always disputed it being Jaime on the ground that he can't wrap 2 hands around Cersei's throat but I think the face that hand & hands in valyrian is the same word sets the precedent for there to be some wiggle room here & I suppose if we get technical he does have 2 hands, just not 2 human hands. 

Congrats - again very good analysis. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Yea.  I'm planning on finishing up the last video and then posting that, then making a full detailed text post.

 the detailed post should be first. It gives people time to read it when they see fit and not have to commit to an hour 

[zandru]

3 hours ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

Arya is the only one to experience both the beheading of Ned Stark as well as the aftermath of the Red Wedding.

Good points! Even worse for her, Arya actually dragged her mother's three-day dead body to shore (as Nymeria), where the Brotherhood w/o Banners happened upon it. Good thing Nym didn't see the "resurrection."

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

7 hours ago, Tyrion the Targaryen said:

If you have time to watch a game of thrones episode, you have time to watch the two videos.  But I'll try my best to explain.

Arya. Arya as Jaime. Tyrion is going to be the one who plans Cersei's assassination using Arya. After meeting Symon Silver Tongue in ACoK, Tyrion has sex with Shae and then talks to Varys.  He remarks that he always dreamt that he would be rich enough to hire a faceless man to kill his sweet sister. Symon Silver Tongue's "Hands of Gold" part plays a role in tying it all together, but I'll spare you the detail and encourage you to watch the videos at another time to get the nuances.

In both of Jaime's dreams in ASoS and AFfC, he encounters people in cowled robes.  The first dream it was the men in spears leading him to his doom.  And he turns around and asks "Who are you?" He gets no response. Then when he gets shoved into the pit, he inquires where he is. All the voices of the past Lannisters answer him, but Tywin's voice was most prominent. The other part of the dream is important as well, but again I'll try to spare you the details.

Second dream his mother is in a cowled robe, dressed as a Silent Sister. In AFfC "Who are you?" is revealed, before Jaime's dream, as the question of the game of faces in Arya's chapter when she is training and in Pate's chapter (the prologue for A Feast) when Pate asks the alchemist, who he has met before but does not recognize at this point because he has a different face, who ends up killing him (presumably because he is a faceless man):

The Faith of the Seven originated from Essos/Andalos, and the Stranger is the God of death in the Faith of the Seven, which recognized by the faceless men as a version of the Many-Faced Gods. Onto Jaime's dream:

He was at the Sept with his father's body there. There are two orders that use cowled robes: the Faceless Men and the Silent Sisters. The Silent sisters serve the Stranger, and the Stranger is the god of death in the Faith of the Seven and the Faceless men acknowledge this as a form of the Many-Faced god. Joanna is essentially dressed as death. When Jaime asks "What would you have of me?"  "memememe" is echoed in the Sept, as if it were to say that Joanna/death were saying that it wants Jaime.  This is underscored by Joanna reiterating the question with more emphases to Jaime:

The phrase "Who are you?" is in the first line of the Rains of Castamere, the song Tywin (who they are standing over) created to immortalize the destruction of House Reyne and serve as a sign of Lannister pride and power.  So, Joanna is essentially "poking fun" at that while also playing the game of faces with Jaime, indicating Jaime is going to be used as a faceless man (which is hinted at later in another dream).

But onto the "Tywin never liked being laughed at/doesn't want his daughter and son being laughed at".

There are two other Lannister dreams, the one that precedes Jaime's in ASoS (not the one of his mother, but the one of him being poked into a pit): Cersei's dream in her first PoV chapter ever.  In, the night Tywin was shot and killed by Tyrion, AFfC:

She wakes up and is paranoid about Tyrion killing her, finds out about him escaping and sneaking to the tower of hand through a tunnel and killing Tywin, she gets paranoid about him being in the walls, and fears him laughing at her. Cersei's paranoia that Tyrion is the valonqar is a self-fulfilling prophecy, which GRRM stated about prophecies:

This dream is before Jaime's dream of Joanna, and then Jaime's dream of Joanna happens, and then Tyrion's in A Dance with Dragons:

There is a theme of Tyrion being laughed at by those he cares about throughout the books (for instances, when Shae reveals that she would call Tyrion "my Giant of a Lannister" in his trial, the laughter from the court room, including Cersei, was emphasized.) But after Tyrion wakes up from his dream, he then recalls the night he killed Shae, the first time they met and had sex, the first time he met Tysha and their first time.  Then he tried to recall her face, only to have his father's face while he was on the privy pop up and he relived killing him.  Tyrion's downfall from when he killed his father to him brooding over his family in ADwD is leading his story arch to him killing off his family, ending his father's legacy except through himself, flipping the "Rains of Castemere" on Tywin (not killing off every Lannister of course, Tyrion isn't ruthless like Tywin) and becoming a great source of irony. The reason why I think Tyrion is going to flip the Rains of Castamere narrative on his father is because of after Jaime reveals the truth about Tysha, Tyrion hits Jaime:

Then Tyrion goes onto sneak into the Tower of the Hand, kills Shae (cue "Hands of Gold are always cold"), then finds his father on the privy:

Which reflects the Rains of Castamere lyrics, and then after the exchange about Tysha and Tyrion shooting the crossbow:

He is not only literally a smaller version of Tywin, but he's going to do what Tywin did to the Reynes to his own family line in a smaller manner.

Then there is Arya on Needle in AFfC:

There are also parallels between Arya and death, and I'm working on the third part of the video series called "Mercy".  The show is pretty clear about Arya being the valonqar as well. She was sent on a redemption mission to kill the actor who played Cersei Lannister.  In the books she plays a character named "Mercy".  The Faceless Men, and others, give the gift of death, they call it "the gift of mercy".  Arya is going to give Cersei the gift of Mercy. Just watch the videos if you can.

 

 

Good oservations, it's still theory until actually confirmed, and not exactly "canon", but I like your reasoning and appreciate the research you've put in to it.

[Pikachu101]

Jaime for the poetic justice 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

"Arya as Jaime" is a non-starter. If I say she's half Jaime's size, I'll be generous. Faceless Men can change faces, not drastically alter body mass.

Plus, it's way too convoluted to be true. I've yet to see an example of foreshadowing in the series that couldn't be summarized in a few concise sentences. And prophecies turned true should seem perfectly obvious in retrospect. This one wouldn't.

[PCK]

The dream in Storm implies Cersei will die before Jaime. 

[Tyrion the Targaryen]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

Jaime for the poetic justice 

Arya as Jaime*.  What difference would it make if Arya kills Cersei and Cersei doesn't know that it is Arya?

And I think the whole "Jaime needs to kill Cersei because she's his lover" is not good reasoning at all.  It fits Arya and Tyrion's story arch better for them to kill Cersei.  Jaime loves Cersei too much, and she is "his only light in this world".  In the show, she is pregnant with his next child and there is much more in the show to imply that it will be Arya as well.  And Cersei and Jaime have "debts" that they owe Tyrion.