Who (or what) is the Three-Eyed Crow?

[Dragonsbone]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What makes you believe Bran is not already in the cave at this point?

I don't quite get the question. I am sorry. I am not saying Bran is not in the cave. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

40 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

I don't quite get the question. I am sorry. I am not saying Bran is not in the cave. 

No need to apologize. I didn't phrase my question clearly.

You said, "I am pretty sure that Bran will be able to talk to characters in the past. We already saw a glimpse of it in the Theon chapter." 

I'm curious why you think Bran is talking to Theon in the past and not the present. If he is already in the cave, wouldn't Bran be speaking to Theon in 'real time'?

[Dragonsbone]

2 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No need to apologize. I didn't phrase my question clearly.

You said, "I am pretty sure that Bran will be able to talk to characters in the past. We already saw a glimpse of it in the Theon chapter." 

I'm curious why you think Bran is talking to Theon in the past and not the present. If he is already in the cave, wouldn't Bran be speaking to Theon in 'real time'?

Ah OK, now I get it. Yes, I guess we can assume that he is talking to Theon in real time there. But in that scene, we see that he is able to talk to people and interact with them, not just watch and observe, like Bloodraven tries to teach him. That is why I said "a hint". If we already witnessed him talking with characters in the past, we would not need to discuss that, would we? We have Bloodraven telling him that he can see the past, but he can not interact with it and we see Bran interacting with Theon and nearly interacting with Ned. These are, in my opinion, all hints that he will able to interact with characters from the past. 

[Clegane'sPup]

21 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Not once in any of the ADWD Bran chapters is it ever confirmed that Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers is the 3 eyed crow. In fact, every time the 3EC is referenced, someone skips around it.

While this may be true, I could say the same about Lyanna as never being confirmed in text as Jon Snow's mum.

 

Below is Meera questioning Coldhands.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I    "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?"   "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." The longhall's wooden door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens, screaming.

 

Where did Coldhands lead Bran and company? He led them to the CotF cave.  What did Maester Luwin say about the CotF and greenseers? Notice the similarities to the crannog Reed children.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII     "They were a people dark and beautiful, small of stature, no taller than children even when grown to manhood. They lived in the depths of the wood, in caves and crannogs and secret tree towns. Slight as they were, the children were quick and graceful. Male and female hunted together, with weirwood bows and flying snares. Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.

 

Below are various dialogues between Luwin & Bran about greenseers and greensight.

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV     "You told me that the children of the forest had the greensight. I remember."   "Some claimed to have that power. Their wise men were called greenseers."  "Was it magic?"

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV     Luwin set down his quill. "No one truly knows, Bran. The children are gone from the world, and their wisdom with them. It had to do with the faces in the trees, we think. The First Men believed that the greenseers could see through the eyes of the weirwoods. That was why they cut down the trees whenever they warred upon the children. Supposedly the greenseers also had power over the beasts of the wood and the birds in the trees. Even fish. Does the Reed boy claim such powers?"    "No. I don't think. But he has dreams that come true sometimes, Meera says."

 

Jojen tries to splain stuff to Bran. Jojen tells Bran that Bran is a greenseer and again the similarities betwixt the crannog’s and the CotF and the old gods are mentioned.  Jojen says he was gifted with green dreams.      Now there are greenseers, greensight and green dreams.

A Storm of Swords - Bran I     "Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer."      "No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.       "The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly . . . if you had someone to teach you. How can I help you master a gift I do not understand? We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew."

 

There appears to be a connection between the crannog Reeds and the Cotf. What say I throw another ambiguity into the works?   Singers.

Dance with Dragons - Bran III      The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III     "I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."    "In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

The northmen worship the old gods via the weirwood heart tree. The old gods and the weirwood are connected to the CotF. The crannogmen , as in Howland, are connected to the CotF.  The CotF are referenced as singers. Singers live in the ravens. Bran felt a spirit in the raven he skinchanged.

Once Bran has mastered his gifts he can look where he wants. The below quote is like a metaphysical Zen thawg.  In the US there is a giant sequoia tree believed to be 3,000+ years old. Now if that old tree could talk imagine what it would know.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III      "Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

 

Bran contemplates the CotF/Singers mentioning that they sing in the True Tongue. Again to me the writing gets a bit metaphysical, as in, ashes to ashes and dust to dust.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III      Though the men of the Seven Kingdoms might call them the children of the forest, Leaf and her people were far from childlike. Little wise men of the forest would have been closer. <snip>   And they did sing. They sang in True Tongue, so Bran could not understand the words, but their voices were as pure as winter air. "Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrun the world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

Keep in mind the readers still haven't read nuttin' about Howland nor heard his tale. As far as I know Mormont and Glover haven't come outta da swamp either.

 

[Eiko Dragonhorn]

On 10/29/2017 at 9:59 AM, LynnS said:

Seriously? Totally?  Everything is out of hand?  And you want to make sure everything is under control by ridiculing anything that isn't under your control?  You have an awful high opinion of yourself.  Sheesh.  So now what?

Can't tell if trying to continue my sarcasm or just whooshing real bad...

But yes my opinion of myself is quite high, thank you.

[Tucu]

32 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

Ah OK, now I get it. Yes, I guess we can assume that he is talking to Theon in real time there. But in that scene, we see that he is able to talk to people and interact with them, not just watch and observe, like Bloodraven tries to teach him. That is why I said "a hint". If we already witnessed him talking with characters in the past, we would not need to discuss that, would we? We have Bloodraven telling him that he can see the past, but he can not interact with it and we see Bran interacting with Theon and nearly interacting with Ned. These are, in my opinion, all hints that he will able to interact with characters from the past. 

We have Arya talking to a weirwood in Harrenhal in ACoK

Quote

    In the godswood she found her broomstick sword where she had left it, and carried it to the heart tree. There she knelt. Red leaves rustled. Red eyes peered inside her. The eyes of the gods. “Tell me what to do, you gods,” she prayed.
    For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf.
    Gooseprickles rose on Arya’s skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.
    “But there is no pack,” she whispered to the weirwood. Bran and Rickon were dead, the Lannisters had Sansa, Jon had gone to the Wall. “I’m not even me now, I’m Nan.”
    “You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the north. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you.”
    “The wolf blood.” Arya remembered now. “I’ll be as strong as Robb. I said I would.” She took a deep breath, then lifted the broomstick in both hands and brought it down across her knee. It broke with a loud crack, and she threw the pieces aside. I am a direwolf, and done with wooden teeth.

The tree sounds more like Ned than Bran, but Bran is the one with the weirnet powers.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, Dragonsbone said:

Ah OK, now I get it. Yes, I guess we can assume that he is talking to Theon in real time there. But in that scene, we see that he is able to talk to people and interact with them, not just watch and observe, like Bloodraven tries to teach him. That is why I said "a hint". If we already witnessed him talking with characters in the past, we would not need to discuss that, would we? We have Bloodraven telling him that he can see the past, but he can not interact with it and we see Bran interacting with Theon and nearly interacting with Ned. These are, in my opinion, all hints that he will able to interact with characters from the past. 

I'm not totally convinced that Bloodraven can even talk to people in the present through the Weirnet...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, Tucu said:

We have Arya talking to a weirwood in Harrenhal in ACoK

The tree sounds more like Ned than Bran, but Bran is the one with the weirnet powers.

I think we should be careful to conflate the wolf, crow and Weirwood dreams... my guess is the lone wolf howl is pointing at something else... the wolf blood.

 

Bran:

Quote

Of late, he often dreamed of wolves. They are talking to me, brother to brother, he told himself when the direwolves howled. He could almost understand them . . . not quite, not truly, but almost . . . as if they were singing in a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. The Walders might be scared of them, but the Starks had wolf blood. Old Nan told him so. "Though it is stronger in some than in others," she warned.

 

Jon:

Quote

 

 The night was moonless, but a thousand stars shone overhead.

A sound rose out of the darkness, faint and distant, but unmistakable: the howling of wolves. Their voices rose and fell, a chilly song, and lonely. It made the hairs rise along the back of his neck. Across the fire, a pair of red eyes regarded him from the shadows. The light of the flames made them glow.

 

Arya:

Quote

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. Gooseprickles rose on Arya's skin, and for an instant she felt dizzy. Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father's voice. "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

Sansa:

Quote

There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howlingfiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains.

Dany:

Quote

 

Off in the distance, a wolf howled. The sound made her feel sad and lonely, but no less hungry. As the moon rose above the grasslands, Dany slipped at last into a restless sleep. 

She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear.

 

 

And of course Dany's red door/lemon tree:

Quote

 

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

 

Dany also has the wolf blood...

Ned:

Quote

"Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. Septa Mordane is a good woman, and Sansa … Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me."

Danny's red door again:

Quote

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

 

[Tucu]

48 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think we should be careful to conflate the wolf, crow and Weirwood dreams... my guess is the lone wolf howl is pointing at something else... the wolf blood.

Arya was not dreaming at that point. She was praying to the Old Gods like Theon in ADWD.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Arya was not dreaming at that point. She was praying to the Old Gods like Theon in ADWD.

Right, but I think this is her remembering her dad, or the wolf blood speaking to her... not someone talking through the Weirwoods in her dad's voice... it's more of a waking dream I guess. Sorry, guess I should have started with that. 

I was just trying to suggest that I think keeping the wolf, wierwood, and crow seperate in my mind is important.

[GyantSpyder]

Whoever or whatever the "primary" agent or personality of the Three-Eyed Crow is, you gotta think there are lots of remnants of dead people and dead Children of the Forest rattling around in its consciousness.

[Dragonsbone]

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not totally convinced that Bloodraven can even talk to people in the present through the Weirnet...

Me neither. I think Bloodraven may be able to influence people by recurring in their Dreams  (à la Inception), but we have never witnesed him live-talking through the Weirwood net. Bran on the other hand, might be able to do stuff that Bloodraven does not even imagine. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 29/10/2017 at 11:34 PM, ravenous reader said:

I disagree -- and so do you..(you're just being 'Difficult'...).

I miss him, strangely enough.  He had a good handle on the voices of the North, despite his abrasive manner.

P.S.  There is not a soul on the forum(s) who can match your wit.  That must be lonely...

Hey RR. I haven't even checked on the forum in..., we'll only the old gods know. It was getting tiresome with all the new Youtuber generation who watch more of the show and read less of the books so I was planning on taking a break until closer to book release. 

I absolutely had to silence @Dorian Martell's son though and when he admitted defeat by replying "text too long, not replying", I knew I had him and it was time for my extended vacation from Westeros.

I seriously can't fathom why you are still debating the topic with him/her when you know, I know and they know we are all in full agreement. They only keep the argument going so you will talk to them haha. 

I was looking up news about Winds and Fire and Blood and I thought I'd stop by to see if any new posts were worth opening and I saw your two notifications. I miss discussions with you too strangely enough, you have a great handle on the books while Dorians Uncle, or Grandson.. or whatever he/she is is just in complete denial for whatever reason. That's their business though.

Rest assured I'll be back to Westeros. @LynnS i shall return at some stage. I'll maybe come back on after Xmas and New Years with the hope the book will follow soon after. I know DM has missed me dearly, it seems after all this time they can't help but still talk about me. Now that my friends, is the definition of a fanboy/fan girl because I haven't given you a second thought since I stunned you into silence light years ago. 

Stay with it guys, the book and MOTN will come. 

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Rest assured I'll be back to Westeros. @LynnS i shall return at some stage. I'll maybe come back on after Xmas and New Years with the hope the book will follow soon after. I know DM has missed me dearly, it seems after all this time they can't help but still talk about me. Now that my friends, is the definition of a fanboy/fan girl because I haven't given you a second thought since I stunned you into silence light years ago. 

I'm sure all your fans are looking forward to your return.  The DM dialogues were highly amusing and so a small hole was left with your departure. Amusements abound and it didn't take long to fill it up with less demanding voices.   I haven't really thought about you either until it became obvious that someone of our acquaintance was spoiling for an argument and missing the good old days.  I wouldn't confuse silence with absence or lack of interest.

[Macgregor of the North]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm sure all your fans are looking forward to your return.  The DM dialogues were highly amusing and so a small hole was left with your departure. Amusements abound and it didn't take long to fill it up with less demanding voices.   I haven't really thought about you either until it became obvious that someone of our acquaintance was spoiling for an argument and missing the good old days.  I wouldn't confuse silence with absence or lack of interest.

This is by no means a permanent return to waste time on here but since I am here for the moment I'll easily school DM just like the old days if they wish a lesson from the master on the Bran topic. 

Balls in your court son. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/31/2017 at 6:50 PM, Dragonsbone said:

Ah OK, now I get it. Yes, I guess we can assume that he is talking to Theon in real time there. But in that scene, we see that he is able to talk to people and interact with them, not just watch and observe, like Bloodraven tries to teach him. That is why I said "a hint". If we already witnessed him talking with characters in the past, we would not need to discuss that, would we? We have Bloodraven telling him that he can see the past, but he can not interact with it and we see Bran interacting with Theon and nearly interacting with Ned. These are, in my opinion, all hints that he will able to interact with characters from the past. 

But how much interaction did we see between Bran and Theon? All theon hear was a ind rustling the leaves that sounded like his name, no? Of course, we know that was Bran, because Osha told us way back when that the wind in the trees was the sound of the gods. On the other hand, haven't we seen Bloodraven enter men's dreams and motivated certain actions? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/31/2017 at 7:20 PM, Tucu said:

We have Arya talking to a weirwood in Harrenhal in ACoK

The tree sounds more like Ned than Bran, but Bran is the one with the weirnet powers.

I suspect it is Bloodraven using Eddard's voice, similar to the way he used Johanna Lannister's voice to talk to Jaime. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 11/1/2017 at 9:30 AM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not totally convinced that Bloodraven can even talk to people in the present through the Weirnet...

You don't think Bloodraven inspired Jaime's weirwood stump dream? 

ETA

Ah, I see your later posts, and I kinda get where you're coming from, but I think it is all part of the same thing. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

29 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You don't think Bloodraven inspired Jaime's weirwood stump dream? 

ETA

Ah, I see your later posts, and I kinda get where you're coming from, but I think it is all part of the same thing. 

I made the assumption once that all the mystical dreams and talking animals were Bloodraven's doing... but now I'm questioning that. What evidence do we have that it was him talking to Jaime? Or with Ned's voice? Or speaking to anyone...

I had assumed it was him because I assumed he was the three eyed crow, and was the one character we've met who seemed capable of these things... but now I'm not so sure. 

After questioning the identity of the 3eC I had to question the rest too, and frankly I'm still looking for hard evidence... so I'm enjoying the speculation. And now I have lots of doubts about those early assumptions.

If you think you have textual proof of Bloodraven speaking through dreams or animals I'd love to see it.

[Tucu]

57 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I suspect it is Bloodraven using Eddard's voice, similar to the way he used Johanna Lannister's voice to talk to Jaime. 

Another greenseer is a possibility, maybe from the nearby Isle of Faces; but Bloodraven seems to think the trees cannot pronounce words:

Quote

He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves.

Yet later we have a scene in what a tree is capable of speaking two words:

Quote

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

....

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

I see this as hints that Bran will be a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven, that joined the trees very late in his life.