Who (or what) is the Three-Eyed Crow?

[LynnS]

40 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I see this as hints that Bran will be a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven, that joined the trees very late in his life.

I agree.  Bloodraven's abilities may qualify him for the rare position of greenseer; but Bran is far more powerful.  The crannogmen at least have the ability to 'talk to trees'.

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A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran was almost certain he had never heard this story. "Did he have green dreams like Jojen?"

"No," said Meera, "but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

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A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Bran nodded.

"You should not fight so hard, boy. I see you talking to the heart tree. Might be the gods are trying to talk back."

 

[Tucu]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I agree.  Bloodraven's abilities may qualify him for the rare position of greenseer; but Bran is far more powerful.  The crannogmen at least have the ability to 'talk to trees'.

 

He also seems more willing to act:

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It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

If Bran has opportunities to use any tools to help the Starks and the North, he will take them. For example, at first he takes control of Hodor for group preservation, but then he freely uses him for exploration.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Another greenseer is a possibility, maybe from the nearby Isle of Faces; but Bloodraven seems to think the trees cannot pronounce words:

Yet later we have a scene in what a tree is capable of speaking two words:

I see this as hints that Bran will be a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven, that joined the trees very late in his life.

Tucu, I will go ahead and assume you and I are on the same page that we think Bran is attempting to communicate with Theon in present time and Theon managed to hear two words, his own name and "Bran". 

Have you ever looked at it from this angle. Take the second time Bran sees his father at the Heart tree after he has eaten the paste. Bran throws a good few words at Ned: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Note how the author spells it out for us that Brans voice was actually the whisper in the wind and the rustle in the leaves despite the fact that at that time Bran was not even born. So Bran caused the noises Ned hears. But think on this also. GRRM curiously inserts "Brandon" into the sentence, a word which is primarily used in the story while referencing Neds older brother. 

Now, imagine Theon hearing only his own name and Brans, but I think Bran would have been saying a lot more in his attempt to reach Theon, but Theon only catches the two words. 

Then imagine Neds scene, Bran says more than just two names, but imagine Ned only hears two of the words, like "Father", or perhaps "Brandon".

Having just returned from the war, a war in which he lost his father and brother at the beginning, it would be quite confusing to catch the name of your dead brother, or the word father faintly whispered by the old gods. This would certainly merit a reaction such as a confused frown maybe?

"Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

While thinking on all this we perhaps wonder, but that's in "the past", Theons instance was in "the present", would Ned actually hear a word or two clearly, in "the past".

Well why not?? The tree does not view it as the past, Infact the tree does not understand the concept of time or things like past, present and future so the two instances are the same to the tree no?. 

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

"Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Tucu said:

He also seems more willing to act:

If Bran has opportunities to use any tools to help the Starks and the North, he will take them. For example, at first he takes control of Hodor for group preservation, but then he freely uses him for exploration.

Certainly and if time is a river flowing in one direction for men; time stand still for the oak and acorn and the weirwood:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

 

Although I think Bran will perceive time as twisting and turning,  moving in circles and when there are obstacles in the way, one must go around them:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

"He said, aye. He said he would take us to this three-eyed crow too. That river we crossed this morning is the same one we crossed four days ago, I swear. We're going in circles."

"Rivers turn and twist," Bran said uncertainly, "and where there's lakes and hills, you need to go around."

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

He also seems more willing to act:

If Bran has opportunities to use any tools to help the Starks and the North, he will take them. For example, at first he takes control of Hodor for group preservation, but then he freely uses him for exploration.

Ummm, I think this quote needs to be taken in context...

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

First, Bloodraven is not one of the Children, he's a man.

One who's father's house has been usurped and chased into exile, and whose mothers house was banished from its ancestoral lands by the Starks.

In fact, after being legitimized by his father, one could argue he had a better claim to the throne than egg, who sent him to the wall.

But more importantly, I'm not convinced the Children are just singing sad songs... the little metaphor leading into this makes it seem like the children might feel it is their responsibility to cull the deer/men trying to overrun the world.

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"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees. Before the First Men came all this land that you call Westeros was home to us, yet even in those days we were few. The gods gave us long lives but not great numbers, lest we overrunthe world as deer will overrun a wood where there are no wolves to hunt them. That was in the dawn of days, when our sun was rising. Now it sinks, and this is our long dwindling. The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers. The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us

Leaf even groups the Children with Direwolves at the end... as opposed to men who have great numbers and left no room for the Children.

 

[Tucu]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Tucu, I will go ahead and assume you and I are on the same page that we think Bran is attempting to communicate with Theon in present time and Theon managed to hear two words, his own name and "Bran". 

Have you ever looked at it from this angle. Take the second time Bran sees his father at the Heart tree after he has eaten the paste. Bran throws a good few words at Ned: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Note how the author spells it out for us that Brans voice was actually the whisper in the wind and the rustle in the leaves despite the fact that at that time Bran was not even born. So Bran caused the noises Ned hears. But think on this also. GRRM curiously inserts "Brandon" into the sentence, a word which is primarily used in the story while referencing Neds older brother. 

Now, imagine Theon hearing only his own name and Brans, but I think Bran would have been saying a lot more in his attempt to reach Theon, but Theon only catches the two words. 

Then imagine Neds scene, Bran says more than just two names, but imagine Ned only hears two of the words, like "Father", or perhaps "Brandon".

Having just returned from the war, a war in which he lost his father and brother at the beginning, it would be quite confusing to catch the name of your dead brother, or the word father faintly whispered by the old gods. This would certainly merit a reaction such as a confused frown maybe?

"Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

While thinking on all this we perhaps wonder, but that's in "the past", Theons instance was in "the present", would Ned actually hear a word or two clearly, in "the past".

Well why not?? The tree does not view it as the past, Infact the tree does not understand the concept of time or things like past, present and future so the two instances are the same to the tree no?. 

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

"Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

Yes, I think Theon's conversation was somehow in real time. Bran is still developing the tree talking skills, so Theon only catches a couple of words. I am not sure if Bran was trying to help Theon or just insulting him :-).

I think there is a chance that the 3EC is outside-of-time Bran trying to prevent a version of history in which things go a lot worst for the Starks.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

"You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw."

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood."

I think it's important to remember the instructions Bran received leading into this though... 

 

Quote

Leaf touched his hand. "The trees will teach you. The trees remember." He raised a hand, and the other singers began to move about the cavern, extinguishing the torches one by one. The darkness thickened and crept toward them.

Leaf tells Bran the Weirwoods will teach him... and I would just stress again that I believe the trees and the 3eC to be different... then the lights go out.

Quote

 

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see." 

Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below

 

The three eyed crow speaks to Bran in the darkness, not a grisly talking corpse...

It tells Bran to look out of the trees above, and bran tries, he thinks he is, and for a moment it seems it's working...

but then he is looking out of the Winterfell Weirwood. 

This is not what the 3eC told him to do... Bran needs to learn to look before he can see!

Also, anyone think there is significance to BloodRaven calling the Winterfell Wierwood, the heart tree in "your" godswood? As opposed to someone else's godswood, and/or implying the Weirwood grove he's currently under isn't his?

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think it's important to remember the instructions Bran received leading into this though...

Leaf tells Bran the Weirwoods will teach him... and I would just stress again that I believe the trees and the 3eC to be different... then the lights go out.

The three eyed crow speaks to Bran in the darkness, not a grisly talking corpse...

It tells Bran to look out of the trees above, and bran tries, he thinks he is, and for a moment it seems it's working...

but then he is looking out of the Winterfell Weirwood. 

This is not what the 3eC told him to do... Bran needs to learn to look before he can see!

Also, anyone think there is significance to BloodRaven calling the Winterfell Wierwood, the heart tree in "your" godswood? As opposed to someone else's godswood, and/or implying the Weirwood grove he's currently under isn't his?

Yes I agree; he receives two different sets of instructions.  It is also curious that Bran is asked what he saw afterwards.  Leaf touches his hand and I'm reminded once again that Quaithe touches Dany's wrist leaving a tingling sensation.  Quaithe seems to be party to Dany's visions in the HoU and reminds her to remember the Undying or what she saw.  

Bran raising his wrist calls to mind Moqorro's words to Victarion:

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A Dance with Dragons - The Iron Suitor

"My hand. What do you know of my hand?"

"I have seen you in the nightfires, Victarion Greyjoy. You come striding through the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, blind to the tentacles that grasp you at wrist and neck and ankle, the black strings that make you dance."

   

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I made the assumption once that all the mystical dreams and talking animals were Bloodraven's doing... but now I'm questioning that. What evidence do we have that it was him talking to Jaime? Or with Ned's voice? Or speaking to anyone...

I had assumed it was him because I assumed he was the three eyed crow, and was the one character we've met who seemed capable of these things... but now I'm not so sure. 

After questioning the identity of the 3eC I had to question the rest too, and frankly I'm still looking for hard evidence... so I'm enjoying the speculation. And now I have lots of doubts about those early assumptions.

If you think you have textual proof of Bloodraven speaking through dreams or animals I'd love to see it.

There are little hints that point to Bloodraven here and there, I think. For example, when Jaime wakes from the dram near Harrenhal, the author makes sure to have Jaime note that the stump he rested his head on was white, suggesting to the reader that it was a weirwood, and that the dream was inspired by a greenseer, presumably Bloodraven. When Arya dreams of the wolves hunting down the pursuit from Harrenhal, presumably through the eyes of Nymeria, the other wolves are described as "a great pack of them, gaunt and wet and silent," which was very similar to one of the guises Bloodraven employed before he went north to wed the tree. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

There are little hints that point to Bloodraven here and there, I think. For example, when Jaime wakes from the dram near Harrenhal, the author makes sure to have Jaime note that the stump he rested his head on was white, suggesting to the reader that it was a weirwood, and that the dream was inspired by a greenseer, presumably Bloodraven. When Arya dreams of the wolves hunting down the pursuit from Harrenhal, presumably through the eyes of Nymeria, the other wolves are described as "a great pack of them, gaunt and wet and silent," which was very similar to one of the guises Bloodraven employed before he went north to wed the tree. 

So my point is that it seems to me that these things are all attributed to Bloodraven for lack of a more obvious option... we don't really have any evidence it was him...

I certainly don't think he sent Arya the Nymeria Dreams... wolf dreams being explicitly separate from crow and tree dreams... Direwolves are a Stark thing.

I do agree that Jaime seems to have been influenced by the Weirwood stump, I'm not sure I see any reason to think Bloodraven was behind it, except lack of other obvious options. (Less obvious options abound, a few being the Ghost of High Heart, Howland Reed, the Green Men, or even Dead Lannister Ancestors.)

While the assumption that Bloodraven is behind all these Old God related things easy to make, actual textual evidence of him even being capable of such things is scant at best.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ummm, I think this quote needs to be taken in context...

First, Bloodraven is not one of the Children, he's a man.

One who's father's house has been usurped and chased into exile, and whose mothers house was banished from its ancestoral lands by the Starks.

In fact, after being legitimized by his father, one could argue he had a better claim to the throne than egg, who sent him to the wall.

But more importantly, I'm not convinced the Children are just singing sad songs... the little metaphor leading into this makes it seem like the children might feel it is their responsibility to cull the deer/men trying to overrun the world.

Leaf even groups the Children with Direwolves at the end... as opposed to men who have great numbers and left no room for the Children.

 

BR helped put Aegon V in the throne and then willingly went to the Wall where he served for 19 years. Up until he dissapeared he seemed a loyal Targ; yet during his time as a greenseer capable of viewing across time, the Targs had the Tragedy at Summerhal caused by mistakes in the process of waking dragons, they suffered a Blackfyre rebellion and finally Robert's rebellion. He just doesn't seem to be a very powerful entity

With regards to his relationships to the Starks; they also have Blackwood blood (from Rickard's granmother). The Targs descended from Aegon V are also part Blackwood

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

Another greenseer is a possibility, maybe from the nearby Isle of Faces; but Bloodraven seems to think the trees cannot pronounce words:

Yet later we have a scene in what a tree is capable of speaking two words:

I see this as hints that Bran will be a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven, that joined the trees very late in his life.

I agree that's a hint that Bran has more potential than Bloodraven, but I still think that Arya's thoughts could be inspired by Bloodraven, assuming that Bloodraven has entered her thoughts through the weirnet. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

40 minutes ago, Tucu said:

BR helped put Aegon V in the throne and then willingly went to the Wall where he served for 19 years. Up until he dissapeared he seemed a loyal Targ; yet during his time as a greenseer capable of viewing across time, the Targs had the Tragedy at Summerhal caused by mistakes in the process of waking dragons, they suffered a Blackfyre rebellion and finally Robert's rebellion. He just doesn't seem to be a very powerful entity

With regards to his relationships to the Starks; they also have Blackwood blood (from Rickard's granmother). The Targs descended from Aegon V are also part Blackwood

We don't know much about the period of time when Egg became king.

We certainly don't know that Bloodraven went to the Wall willingly. It seems like it was that or death.

13 years BR spent as Lord Commander, an inospicious number if nothing else.

Was he a loyal Targ (besides not being a Targ)? Was it loyalty that made him oppose the Blackfyres or just blind hate for Bittersteel? It seems to me he rules in all but name and had a reign of terror until Egg's first act as king was to banish him to the Wall. We know he called the great council that put Egg on the throne, but do we even know that he supported Egg? 

we don't know what caused the disaster at Summerhall.

Blackwood blood isn't Stark blood, just because they are a first man house with connections to Weirwoods and Ravens doesn't mean we should associate them with Direwolves as well...

Bloodraven seems like he has some powers, it's just not clear to me what those powers are... I think more powers (or at least different powers) are likely attributed to him than he probably has.

[Lost Melnibonean]

49 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So my point is that it seems to me that these things are all attributed to Bloodraven for lack of a more obvious option... we don't really have any evidence it was him...

I certainly don't think he sent Arya the Nymeria Dreams... wolf dreams being explicitly separate from crow and tree dreams... Direwolves are a Stark thing.

I do agree that Jaime seems to have been influenced by the Weirwood stump, I'm not sure I see any reason to think Bloodraven was behind it, except lack of other obvious options. (Less obvious options abound, a few being the Ghost of High Heart, Howland Reed, the Green Men, or even Dead Lannister Ancestors.)

While the assumption that Bloodraven is behind all these Old God related things easy to make, actual textual evidence of him even being capable of such things is scant at best.

Could be, we didna think it was Bloodraven til deep into Dance, and only when we went back a reread those things, so it's quite possible that there could be some other actor or actors, perhaps those green men on the Isle of Faces? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

41 minutes ago, Tucu said:

BR helped put Aegon V in the throne and then willingly went to the Wall where he served for 19 years. Up until he dissapeared he seemed a loyal Targ; yet during his time as a greenseer capable of viewing across time, the Targs had the Tragedy at Summerhal caused by mistakes in the process of waking dragons, they suffered a Blackfyre rebellion and finally Robert's rebellion. He just doesn't seem to be a very powerful entity

With regards to his relationships to the Starks; they also have Blackwood blood (from Rickard's granmother). The Targs descended from Aegon V are also part Blackwood

Time travel stuff is too complex, I think. I hope he just limits that kinda crap to observations, a few whispers, and holding the door. Otherwise, we'll be going round and round. 

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Time travel stuff is too complex, I think. I hope he just limits that kinda crap to observations, a few whispers, and holding the door. Otherwise, we'll be going round and round. 

Fate and time seems to be key elements in the story. The weirwoods have their own sense of time and GRRM choose to name them after the Wyrd/Weird, the anglosaxon concept of maleable fate that can be weaved by Norns (magical entities).

Bran would not be time travelling, just weaving fate from outside time

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Could be, we didna think it was Bloodraven til deep into Dance, and only when we went back a reread those things, so it's quite possible that there could be some other actor or actors, perhaps those green men on the Isle of Faces? 

Perhaps!

I suspect that The Pact may not have included all the members of both races...

[Faera]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I agree.  Bloodraven's abilities may qualify him for the rare position of greenseer; but Bran is far more powerful.  The crannogmen at least have the ability to 'talk to trees'.

3

According to Jojen, his people live closer to nature and remember the old ways that have long been forgotten. Talking to trees really does seem to be equivalent to being able to "understand the rustling of leaves in the wind". Perhaps whether the words can be properly heard relies on the skill of the being using the Weirwood tree to communicate and the people listening.

The only thing that might hold Bran back a little to be a full-fledged greenseer is that he doesn't seem to have green dreams. Not as Jojen does, anyway. He ticks all the other boxes pretty much, though.
 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I suspect that The Pact may not have included all the members of both races...

If the Maesters can be believed, it was the wisest people of the two races who came together to try and form the Pact. Given how long the CotF and the First Men were fighting each other, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few altercations before the Pact could be properly formed and probably after as well.

 

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I do agree that Jaime seems to have been influenced by the Weirwood stump, I'm not sure I see any reason to think Bloodraven was behind it, except lack of other obvious options. (Less obvious options abound, a few being the Ghost of High Heart, Howland Reed, the Green Men, or even Dead Lannister Ancestors.)

 

I would say that dead ancestors (Lannister or otherwise) might be the closest to the mark. Given it was a stump, it is reasonable to presume the spirits of the dead are still lingering about there. I don't think the trees are usable for a greenseer or someone skilled in the magics "of the green" because the faces seem too important. So, that would rule out most of our living characters.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

The only thing that might hold Bran back a little to be a full-fledged greenseer is that he doesn't seem to have green dreams. Not as Jojen does, anyway. He ticks all the other boxes pretty much, though.
 

But green dreams and the greensight are two different things. Jojen has green dreams but he isn't a greenseer. Bran is the opposite, he's a greenseer but doesn't have - or hasn't had yet - any green dreams that we know of. 

[Faera]

25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But green dreams and the greensight are two different things.

They aren't two different things -- having greensight is what allows Jojen to have his green dreams in the first place. What are these dreams if not a form of sight (in the prophetic sense)? He is not a "Greenseer" because, according to his own definition, you need to be capable of more than having the dreams:

Quote

The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. 

3

With all that considered, I feel Bran is not a true greenseer yet but he has that potential that only comes around rarely in skinchangers. He is worth training up. Right now, he's just a boy who can warg and skin-change but he is also incredibly powerful in these skills he possesses innately and is showing promise in his training under Bloodraven as he is learning to look through the eyes of the weirwood trees. I wouldn't be surprised if seeing through the weirwoods starts to give him the green dreams.