So if Robb doesn't send Theon to the Iron Islands...

[Angel Eyes]

Who do they send instead? Or do they not send anyone?

[Tygett Lannister]

14 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Who do they send instead? Or do they not send anyone?

Caitlyn.

[Faera]

Yep, probably Catelyn. Robb feels like he was looking for as many excuses as he could to keep his mummy from breathing down his neck constantly. Either way, the Ironmen would still have likely attacked the North or - worse - they might have taken Cat hostage.

[Angel Eyes]

32 minutes ago, Faera said:

Yep, probably Catelyn. Robb feels like he was looking for as many excuses as he could to keep his mummy from breathing down his neck constantly. Either way, the Ironmen would still have likely attacked the North or - worse - they might have taken Cat hostage.

So it was doomed from the start?

[Faera]

16 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So it was doomed from the start?

I'd say so.

I cannot really see a situation where Robb enlisting the aid of the Iron Islands would have worked under any circumstances. Even if he sent someone who wasn't worth a random, the best case scenario would be Balon Greyjoy would just throw the messenger back in the sea and stay put.

Robb was a complete idiot for sending Theon -- even if Theon didn't have those delusions of grandeur and tried to warn Robb that the Ironborn were going to raid the North, he was handing over the only thing the Starks had over the Greyjoys, their bloomin' hostage/prisoner/ward!

[A Ghost of Someone]

Send a random messenger. Robb still has Theon. Have a Parlay or something but then again, Balon Greyjoy is sort of messed up in the head. He was a fool before to attack The North, The Westerlands and The Riverlands simultaneously and expect to come out Independent during the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[Angel Eyes]

28 minutes ago, Faera said:

I'd say so.

I cannot really see a situation where Robb enlisting the aid of the Iron Islands would have worked under any circumstances. Even if he sent someone who wasn't worth a random, the best case scenario would be Balon Greyjoy would just throw the messenger back in the sea and stay put.

Robb was a complete idiot for sending Theon -- even if Theon didn't have those delusions of grandeur and tried to warn Robb that the Ironborn were going to raid the North, he was handing over the only thing the Starks had over the Greyjoys, their bloomin' hostage/prisoner/ward!

Remind me why he thought of talking with the Ironborn.

[Faera]

8 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Remind me why he thought of talking with the Ironborn.

It's been a while soI had to double check but...

The idea was that Balon and the Ironborn would attack the Westerlands to help take out the Lannisters and, in return, "let him be king of the Iron Islands." Robb decides that the best person to convince Balon of the idea would be his own son, Theon. I think sending Theon himself was supposed to be an act of good faith on Robb's part but Cat thinks he should send Jason Mallister or anyone but Theon. Frankly, I don't get why Cat didn't tell him that it was one of the few things Ned told them to make sure they do in case war breaks out - keeping Theon close them. He might have listened a little better then.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Faera said:

It's been a while soI had to double check but...

The idea was that Balon and the Ironborn would attack the Westerlands to help take out the Lannisters and, in return, "let him be king of the Iron Islands." Robb decides that the best person to convince Balon of the idea would be his own son, Theon. I think sending Theon himself was supposed to be an act of good faith on Robb's part but Cat thinks he should send Jason Mallister or anyone but Theon. Frankly, I don't get why Cat didn't tell him that it was one of the few things Ned told them to make sure they do in case war breaks out - keeping Theon close them. He might have listened a little better then.

Catelyn (and for that matter Edmure) gets locked out of a lot of things.

[Tygett Lannister]

Robb was also stupid to be disrespectful towards Balon Grejoy for writing "you can have crown of Iron Islands". Like it is Robb's to give it. He should just write message that would say: "Let's take arms against our common enemy the Iron Throne that is suppressing us. All Hail King of the Iron Islands Balon Greyjoy!" And he has Theon as hostage his only surviving son so he wouldn't dare betray him. Westerlands are also much richer and unprotected (so is North but North is large, Westerlands are just hilly). They also have option of raiding the Reach. Balon's decision to attack North was stupid all he gained was some personal revenge and got his son all fucked up and imprisoned together with his daughter Asha. Raiding and taking North just as winter starts, nice meme bruv. 

But yeah he should send some random Frey, there is a lot of Freys, you think Walder will even realize one is missing?

Robb could win the war if it wasn't for his stupid political decisions.

[Faera]

22 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Robb was also stupid to be disrespectful towards Balon Grejoy for writing "you can have crown of Iron Islands". Like it is Robb's to give it. He should just write message that would say: "Let's take arms against our common enemy the Iron Throne that is suppressing us. All Hail King of the Iron Islands Balon Greyjoy!"

Yeah, politics really wasn't Robb's strong point. Granted, he was a sixteen-year-old boy but if he could be a skilled tactician then he could learn how to garner allies properly, too.

23 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

But yeah he should send some random Frey, there is a lot of Freys, you think Walder will even realize one is missing?

 

That really made me giggle for some reason.

23 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Robb could win the war if it wasn't for his stupid political decisions.

While I think Robb's continuation of the war was always going to be an uphill struggle, he did make things harder on himself by not gaining allies outside of his bannermen and own family members. That, and he left the North effectively undefended. Now, granted, as you rightly said Balon was an idiot for wanting to take it - it's a vast piece of land not worth reaving compared to the minerals of the Westerlands and the food supplies of the Reach.

[Bernie Mac]

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

 Now, granted, as you rightly said Balon was an idiot for wanting to take it - it's a vast piece of land not worth reaving compared to the minerals of the Westerlands and the food supplies of the Reach.

Balon's intention was not to reave, but to gain new lands, lands that he thought he stood a chance of holding. 

The North, with its lack of Navy, undefended coast and capital, is the risk free opportunity as opposed to the West with a Navy and a well defended capital and city. 

And of course Tywin, with the backing of the sitting King, might seem a worse person to piss off than an untested 16 year old. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Robb should have sent a raven through the Seven Kingdoms with the call of ruling themselves again  . I may be wrong but to me it seems like Balon Greyjoy had already intended to attack the North with Eddard dead , and he no longer considered Theon a Greyjoy .

[Bernie Mac]

17 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Robb should have sent a raven through the Seven Kingdoms with the call of ruling themselves again  . I may be wrong but to me it seems like Balon Greyjoy had already intended to attack the North with Eddard dead , and he no longer considered Theon a Greyjoy .

Bit late for that when  has already accepted the Riverlands Crown. 

And Balon still considered his son a Greyjoy, just that he was happy with his daughter succeeding him. 

[Trigger Warning]

He was always going to attack the North. It's the only viable option for actually capturing some castles and holding onto them for a while, he wanted land not plunder, there's no point in sending anyone but Robb doesn't know that so he would likely send some lord of no particular value as an envoy. I don't think he'd risk anyone important and didn't see a risk in sending Theon. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Who do they send instead? Or do they not send anyone?

It does not matter if theon is "sent" by robb. He would make his way there somehow, gets shamed by his father, then leads a war party ot take winterfell so the story continues as written 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

Asha could have won the argument 

"And what have we grasped, Nuncle? The north? What is that, but leagues and leagues of leagues and leagues, far from the sound of the sea? We have taken Moat Cailin, Deepwood Motte, Torrhen's Square, even Winterfell. What do we have to show for it?" She beckoned, and her Black Wind men pushed forward, chests of oak and iron on their shoulders. "I give you the wealth of the Stony Shore," Asha said as the first was upended. An avalanche of pebbles clattered forth, cascading down the steps; pebbles grey and black and white, worn smooth by the sea. "I give you the riches of Deepwood," she said, as the second chest was opened. Pinecones came pouring out, to roll and bounce down into the crowd. "And last, the gold of Winterfell." From the third chest came yellow turnips, round and hard and big as a man's head. They landed amidst the pebbles and the pinecones.Asha stabbed one with her dirk. "Harmund Sharp," she shouted, "your son Harrag died at Winterfell, for this." She pulled the turnip off her blade and tossed it to him. "You have other sons, I think. If you'd trade their lives for turnips, shout my nuncle's name!"

If Robb offered him freely the 'riches" of the north and/or challenged hom to pay the Iron price for the gold of CR where he could be reunited with his warrior son leading Robbs Van he might have succeed.

But that is knowledge greenlanders lacked and Theon had forgotten 

[Bernie Mac]

14 minutes ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Asha could have won the argument 

 

Yup, Asha was rightfully pissed that Euron had called back the majority of the Ironborn men from the North, leaving Balon's plan unlikely to prevail. Balon wanted new lands, not booty anf the Ironborn (largely) abandoning Moat Cailin left his plan in ruins, a plan that Asha was fully on board with. 

If my father still lived, Moat Cailin would never have fallen. Balon Greyjoy had known that the Moat was the key to holding the north. Euron knew that as well; he simply did not care. No more than he cared what happened to Deepwood Motte or Torrhen's Square. "Euron has no interest in Balon's conquests. My nuncle's off chasing dragons." 

 

 

edit:Balon was never going to pick the West over the North, the North was too easy and he actually saw the rewards of the North greater than the rewards the West offered, or at least more sustainable

 

[The Last Wolf]

14 horas atrás, Angel Eyes disse:

Quem eles enviaram em vez disso? Ou eles não enviaram ninguém?

 Taking enviaria Stevron Frey, a própria Catelyn pergunta por ele.

Quote

Robb também foi estupido por ser desrespeitoso com Balon Grejoy por escrever "você pode ter a coroa das Ilhas Iron". Como Robb é dar isso. Ele deveria apenas escrever uma mensagem que dizia: "Vamos tomar armas contra o inimigo comum, o Trono de Ferro que está nos suprimindo. Todos Salve o Rei das Ilhas de Ferro Balon Greyjoy!" E ele tem Theon como o refém de seu único filho sobrevivente, então ele não ousaria traí-lo. Westerlands também é muito mais rico e desprotegido (assim como o norte, mas o norte é grande, Westerlands é apenas montanhoso). Eles também têm opção de atacar o Alcance. A decisão de Balon de atacar o Norte foi estúpida. Tudo o que ele ganhou foi uma vingança pessoal e conseguiu seu filho tudo fodido e aprisionado junto com sua filha Asha. Invasar e tomar o Norte assim que o inverno começar, bom meme bruv. 

Mas sim, ele deveria enviar algum Frey aleatório, há muitos Freys, você acha que Walder vai perceber que falta um?

Robb poderia ganhar a guerra se não fosse por suas decisões políticas estúpidas.

 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Even if the Iron Islands helped, the Tyrells,  power hungry, two faced who would do everything and anything they can for power shifted the balance of power towards the Lannisters. Without them, Robb might very well won his Independence, with or without The Iron Islands.