The_Black_Valyrian Posted October 29, 2017 Share Posted October 29, 2017 in ASoS, Barristan/Arstan was trying to get Dany to abandon the quest for an army and go back to Pentos and place all her faith in the middle man Illyrio to secure allies for her. He goes so far as to lie about how half of Westeros would support Daenerys. He mentions that Rhaegar was greatly loved throughout the kingdoms and that invoking his memory would bring lords to her cause. In practice, we see that very, very, very few had love or admiration for Rhaegar that Barristan claimed they did. Why would she use her brother's memory as a means of gaining support? Will they be fight for Dany or Rhaegar's Ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredwin Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 52 minutes ago, The_Black_Valyrian said: in ASoS, Barristan/Arstan was trying to get Dany to abandon the quest for an army and go back to Pentos and place all her faith in the middle man Illyrio to secure allies for her. He goes so far as to lie about how half of Westeros would support Daenerys. He mentions that Rhaegar was greatly loved throughout the kingdoms and that invoking his memory would bring lords to her cause. In practice, we see that very, very, very few had love or admiration for Rhaegar that Barristan claimed they did. Why would she use her brother's memory as a means of gaining support? Will they be fight for Dany or Rhaegar's Ghost. Realistically, whichever cause the nobles are willing to support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I wouldn't put too much stock into what Barristan says sometimes. I mean he himself turned his cloak to serve the very man who not only killed Rhaegar but then excused the men who murdered Rhaegar's wife and children. So if Barristan didn't believe in fighting for Rhaegar's ghost or memory then why should he believe others would want to fight for it now?In all likelihood Barristan would still be in King's Landing right now serving in Tommen's KG had Cersei and Joffrey never made the stupid mistake of dismissing him and humiliating him in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 A great deal of people seemed to respect Targaryan rule. If it would win them lands and titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 11 hours ago, The_Black_Valyrian said: In practice, we see that very, very, very few had love or admiration for Rhaegar that Barristan claimed they did I would say it's quite the opposite. Everyone who was around when Rhaegar was alive (except Robert) seems to still have a high opinion of him, even though the official story is that he kidnapped and raped a highborn lady. Maybe only a handful of people are so loyal that they'd rebel against the crown upon hearing his name (and most of them are now dead), but it certainly wouldn't hurt Dany to emphasize her likeness and relation to Rhaegar when convincing lords to join her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 46 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said: I would say it's quite the opposite. Everyone who was around when Rhaegar was alive (except Robert) seems to still have a high opinion of him, even though the official story is that he kidnapped and raped a highborn lady. Maybe only a handful of people are so loyal that they'd rebel against the crown upon hearing his name (and most of them are now dead), but it certainly wouldn't hurt Dany to emphasize her likeness and relation to Rhaegar when convincing lords to join her. But he is dead and Dany is not Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 This reminds me a little of Alexander as the "Ghost on the Throne": everyone are trying to base their legitimacy on his memory while most of them are wrecking the empire created by the very same Alexander. The issue with Rhaegar's legacy is that while it certainly gives popularity in the same manner that the legacy of say Daemon Blackfyre leant luster to his successors embracing Rhaegar's ghosts will not be without problem of Danaerys if she embraces it. The positives are fairly known in that Rhaegar was charming, he was a skilled knight, he was a chivalric knight and he was the kind of "missed oppertunity" for everyone to pin their expectations on as his name was never tainted by unpopular decisions or by the wear of time. The negative are of course that if Danaerys is drawing from Rhaegar's memory, what about Rhaegar's son and heir Aegon? It seems to me that Danaerys is the Targaryen heir if we go from Aerys II but if we go from Rhaegar, wouldn't Aegon be the heir? Or what is his place then in House Targaryen if we take Rhaegar as the jump-off point? I think this is something which will come up and probably be a source of friction within the Targaryen camp in which Targaryen legacy they are fighting and what role each of the two Targaryens will have in the future of the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: This reminds me a little of Alexander as the "Ghost on the Throne": everyone are trying to base their legitimacy on his memory while most of them are wrecking the empire created by the very same Alexander. The issue with Rhaegar's legacy is that while it certainly gives popularity in the same manner that the legacy of say Daemon Blackfyre leant luster to his successors embracing Rhaegar's ghosts will not be without problem of Danaerys if she embraces it. The positives are fairly known in that Rhaegar was charming, he was a skilled knight, he was a chivalric knight and he was the kind of "missed oppertunity" for everyone to pin their expectations on as his name was never tainted by unpopular decisions or by the wear of time. The negative are of course that if Danaerys is drawing from Rhaegar's memory, what about Rhaegar's son and heir Aegon? It seems to me that Danaerys is the Targaryen heir if we go from Aerys II but if we go from Rhaegar, wouldn't Aegon be the heir? Or what is his place then in House Targaryen if we take Rhaegar as the jump-off point? I think this is something which will come up and probably be a source of friction within the Targaryen camp in which Targaryen legacy they are fighting and what role each of the two Targaryens will have in the future of the kingdom. Both cases Aegon is Targareyen heir. Son of first son comes before brothers and sisters of first son. (Aegon before Viserys, Dany) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceABolton Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 I think there were still a large number of lords loyal to the Targareyens so it makes sense to use Dany's brother's memory as a rallying call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said: Both cases Aegon is Targareyen heir. Son of first son comes before brothers and sisters of first son. (Aegon before Viserys, Dany) Well, we are obviously going to disagree. I think that you know where I stand and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 16 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: Well, we are obviously going to disagree. I think that you know where I stand and why. They are all kids (difference being 4 years) so you can't argue they would skip Aegon over for Viserys because he is older. Remember people that would be deciding succession would probably also have regency, younger the kid longer the regency and more time to make kid your puppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Black_Valyrian Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 10/29/2017 at 11:10 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said: I wouldn't put too much stock into what Barristan says sometimes. I mean he himself turned his cloak to serve the very man who not only killed Rhaegar but then excused the men who murdered Rhaegar's wife and children. So if Barristan didn't believe in fighting for Rhaegar's ghost or memory then why should he believe others would want to fight for it now?In all likelihood Barristan would still be in King's Landing right now serving in Tommen's KG had Cersei and Joffrey never made the stupid mistake of dismissing him and humiliating him in the process. Well we can confirm that Barristan is by no means loyal to Dany in any way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 If we have "For the Ned's little girl!" then why not "For Rhaegar's baby sister!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Black_Valyrian Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 10:31 AM, OnceABolton said: I think there were still a large number of lords loyal to the Targareyens so it makes sense to use Dany's brother's memory as a rallying call. yet throughout the books, few speak of Rhaegar in a way that would suggest that they'd raise the targaryen banner over their castles. No one even knows her name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Black_Valyrian Posted November 8, 2017 Author Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 7:42 AM, Hodor the Articulate said: I would say it's quite the opposite. Everyone who was around when Rhaegar was alive (except Robert) seems to still have a high opinion of him, even though the official story is that he kidnapped and raped a highborn lady. Maybe only a handful of people are so loyal that they'd rebel against the crown upon hearing his name (and most of them are now dead), but it certainly wouldn't hurt Dany to emphasize her likeness and relation to Rhaegar when convincing lords to join her. yet none would take up arms in his memory unless lands, titles or the opportunity to be king consort were added bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 9:04 AM, LionoftheWest said: This reminds me a little of Alexander as the "Ghost on the Throne": everyone are trying to base their legitimacy on his memory while most of them are wrecking the empire created by the very same Alexander. The issue with Rhaegar's legacy is that while it certainly gives popularity in the same manner that the legacy of say Daemon Blackfyre leant luster to his successors embracing Rhaegar's ghosts will not be without problem of Danaerys if she embraces it. The positives are fairly known in that Rhaegar was charming, he was a skilled knight, he was a chivalric knight and he was the kind of "missed oppertunity" for everyone to pin their expectations on as his name was never tainted by unpopular decisions or by the wear of time. The negative are of course that if Danaerys is drawing from Rhaegar's memory, what about Rhaegar's son and heir Aegon? It seems to me that Danaerys is the Targaryen heir if we go from Aerys II but if we go from Rhaegar, wouldn't Aegon be the heir? Or what is his place then in House Targaryen if we take Rhaegar as the jump-off point? I think this is something which will come up and probably be a source of friction within the Targaryen camp in which Targaryen legacy they are fighting and what role each of the two Targaryens will have in the future of the kingdom. I don't think it matters much who's heir she is. If she sits the IT it will be by right of conquest. It matters more which Tarh they associate her with. She would be much better off likening herself to Rhaegar than Aerys. 5 hours ago, The_Black_Valyrian said: yet throughout the books, few speak of Rhaegar in a way that would suggest that they'd raise the targaryen banner over their castles. No one even knows her name. 5 hours ago, The_Black_Valyrian said: yet none would take up arms in his memory unless lands, titles or the opportunity to be king consort were added bonuses. Right but I'm sure many will take up arms & flock to her cause when she flies in on Dragons. The realm is in disarray, everyone is calling themselves a king, there is no clear winner & the Lannisters are not loved. They will be smart enough to know that Daenerys presents a likely winner & taking up arms on her side rather than against her will make it much more likely they will get lands & titles. Rhaegar is remembered favorably & it will help her cause to suggest she is Rhaegar come again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I don't think it matters much who's heir she is. If she sits the IT it will be by right of conquest. It matters more which Tarh they associate her with. She would be much better off likening herself to Rhaegar than Aerys. My intention was to say that the one whose heir she is, that's the one that she will get associated with. And from these associations comes other associations, benefits and drawbacks etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I really don't see why Daenerys would even want to be seen as Rhaegar come again. Rhaegar made poor decisions that lead to the Targaryen downfall, lost against Bobby B, not only in single's combat but as a commander leading royal forces against the rebels. You'd think Dany would rather be seen more as Aegon I and or Visenya come again. On paper she's already accomplished more then Rhaegar ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna<3Rhaegar Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 7 hours ago, LionoftheWest said: My intention was to say that the one whose heir she is, that's the one that she will get associated with. And from these associations comes other associations, benefits and drawbacks etc. I gotcha. I think Barristan is likening her to Rhaegar because she is much more like Rhaegar than Aerys. 6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: I really don't see why Daenerys would even want to be seen as Rhaegar come again. Rhaegar made poor decisions that lead to the Targaryen downfall, lost against Bobby B, not only in single's combat but as a commander leading royal forces against the rebels. You'd think Dany would rather be seen more as Aegon I and or Visenya come again. On paper she's already accomplished more then Rhaegar ever had. To be fair Aerys had pretty much already ruined the Targ dynasty. Rhaegar made some questionable decisions but those that knew him think highly of him. And I don't think Dany necessarily wants to be seen as Rhaegar come again - Barristan feels she is like Rhaegar, more so than she is like Viserys or Aerys. Barry didn't know Visenya or Aegon so he can't compare her to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said: I gotcha. I think Barristan is likening her to Rhaegar because she is much more like Rhaegar than Aerys. I think that you have a very good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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