Brute of Bracken

[TheDrunkenGiant]

Is he being set up to be some Gregor Clegane type foil(i.e. unstoppable brute) for Dunk to contend with in future Dunk and Egg stories? It seems that whenever he is mentioned which were few, there was a sense of awe at his abilities like the tourney of Whitewalls was deemed to insignigicant for one of his stature

[Lion of the West]

Could be. We know that the Blackwoods hates his guts so it looks to me like the Brute will be an antagonist for Duncan given how Duncan and the Blackwoods are good guys.

EDITED: My guess is that the Brute will join with the Blackfyres in thie Third Rebellion and the Blackwoods will take him down.

[Jon Fossoway]

The Gregor of that time...

OT. Interesting thing, BTW. Apparently, George planted several Gregors over asoiaf timeline.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Could be. We know that the Blackwoods hates his guts so it looks to me like the Brute will be an antagonist for Duncan given how Duncan and the Blackwoods are good guys.

EDITED: My guess is that the Brute will join with the Blackfyres in thie Third Rebellion and the Blackwoods will take him down.

Interesting theory @TheDrunkenGiant.  I think you're on to something!

I'm glad you mentioned the Blackwoods, after all Egg ends up marrying Betha Blackwood (220 AC).  And even more interesting that you mentioned the Third rebellion (219 AC).  We know that Egg fought in the thrid Blackfyre rebellion and I think it's pretty safe to say that Dunk fought alongside him.  That would all fit pretty nicely together--but that's probably where you were going with that.

It would also wouldn't surprise me that the Brackens, including Otho, the Brute would be on the other side of that.  It would be pretty poetic to see him and Dunk clash, since the Brute was one of those who refused to fight with Dunk at Ashford Meadow.

[Lion of the West]

2 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Interesting theory @TheDrunkenGiant.  I think you're on to something!

I'm glad you mentioned the Blackwoods, after all Egg ends up marrying Betha Blackwood (220 AC).  And even more interesting that you mentioned the Third rebellion (219 AC).  We know that Egg fought in the thrid Blackfyre rebellion and I think it's pretty safe to say that Dunk fought alongside him.  That would all fit pretty nicely together--but that's probably where you were going with that.

It would also wouldn't surprise me that the Brackens, including Otho, the Brute would be on the other side of that.  It would be pretty poetic to see him and Dunk clash, since the Brute was one of those who refused to fight with Dunk at Ashford Meadow.

I suppose so. But I fear it will be more of the "the Brackens are stupid asshole losers" theme than anything else.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, TheDrunkenGiant said:

Is he being set up to be some Gregor Clegane type foil(i.e. unstoppable brute) for Dunk to contend with in future Dunk and Egg stories? It seems that whenever he is mentioned which were few, there was a sense of awe at his abilities like the tourney of Whitewalls was deemed to insignigicant for one of his stature

We already got that in Tommard Heddle

[hiemal]

5 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I suppose so. But I fear it will be more of the "the Brackens are stupid asshole losers" theme than anything else.

It would be a nice change of pace to find out the Brute is secretly a sophisticated and nuanced individual.

[Lion of the West]

2 minutes ago, hiemal said:

It would be a nice change of pace to find out the Brute is secretly a sophisticated and nuanced individual.

That would certainly be a game changer. But I'll be happy if fullfills none of the criteria for being "stupid", an "asshole" and a "loser". In fact I'd rejoice with seeing a sympathic Bracken but I don't think that's the part they are supposed to play in the story.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Dunk being a giant himself needs other big dudes to defeat to add to his legend.  Ser Lucas Longinch, Tommard Heddle,  and eventually Lyonel Baratheon are all big fellas. So the Brute of Bracken would seem to fit that mold. Oddly enough when Dunk faces smaller opponents he usually loses, Ser Uthor Underleaf, teenage Barristan Selmy and  Rohanne Webber are all able to best Duncan in some form or another.

 

[TheDrunkenGiant]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

We already got that in Tommard Heddle

Tom didn't end up being a terriblly hard strugle for Dunk. Lucas Longinch gave him much more of a fight. The few times Otho Bracken is mentioned in the first three stories, it is with a sense of awe or admiration by the mentioner. When he is mentioned it at Whitewalls it was after the other hedge knights mentioned Duncan's size and someone comapred him to Buford Bulwer, the Old Ox. Another knight was quick to mention he heard the Brute of Bracken was coming but then that was dismissed as the tourney would not be prestigious enough to draw Otho Bracken. I get the feeling as big as Dunk is, Otho is going to be a formidable giant like Gregor. They have already foreshadowed his strength with the killing of Quentyn Blackwood and his nickname for the physical strength of that act as the Brute of Bracken.

[Lord Varys]

The Brute of Bracken hates the Blackwoods, like any decent Bracken does, but he appears to be a rather decent guy. He is the only one who deigns to reply to Dunk's plea in THK. 

And, quite frankly, I don't think Dunk involving himself in some Bracken-Blackwood shit if he can prevent it. Could be that he is going to be drawn into a feud in the planned TVH, but that doesn't mean he'll like that. And once Egg and Betha get together I don't see him playing this stupid game, either.

[TheDrunkenGiant]

22 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Dunk being a giant himself needs other big dudes to defeat to add to his legend.  Ser Lucas Longinch, Tommard Heddle,  and eventually Lyonel Baratheon are all big fellas. So the Brute of Bracken would seem to fit that mold. Oddly enough when Dunk faces smaller opponents he usually loses, Ser Uthor Underleaf, teenage Barristan Selmy and  Rohanne Webber are all able to best Duncan in some form or another.

 

I agree, it seems Dunk aquits himself much better in a straight up melee. Although I think Baristan defeated him in a joust which so far Dunk seems to only have relied on his strength and not developed refined techniques as some of the other tourney knights.

[TheDrunkenGiant]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

It would be a nice change of pace to find out the Brute is secretly a sophisticated and nuanced individual.

When I compared him to Gregor, I meant more in the physical sense. A human juggernaut with overwhelming strength but in his only interaction with Dunk, he at least acknowledged him and that his cause might be just. He just refused to participate as he didn't know him. I think he will be a little more human, more like a Harwin Strong than a Gregor Clegane. 

[The Grey Wolf]

I think TVH will depict the Blackwoods to be in the wrong, not the Brute of Bracken.

Specifically, I think TVH will show us the Blackwoods attempting to deny Ser Otho Stone Hedge upon the death of his father, with Bloodraven, being half-Blackwood, refusing to intervene.

[Lion of the West]

19 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I think TVH will depict the Blackwoods to be in the wrong, not the Brute of Bracken.

Specifically, I think TVH will show us the Blackwoods attempting to deny Ser Otho Stone Hedge upon the death of his father, with Bloodraven, being half-Blackwood, refusing to intervene.

If that happens I will sing with joy.

[TheDrunkenGiant]

10 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

If that happens I will sing with joy.

I won't hold my breath. With the Brackens support of the Daemon Blackfyre and the Bittersteel v. Bloodraven(Bracken vs Blackwood), I don't see something so benign as far as casting a good side vs bad side. 

Although while I think Otho is going to be a knight of indomitable strength to present Dunk with a formidable obstacle, he wasn't petty like the other knights Dunk appealed to at Ashford and at least acknowledged him and that his cause might be just. That at least allows that the Brackens might not be cast as the bad guys.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

I think TVH will depict the Blackwoods to be in the wrong, not the Brute of Bracken.

Specifically, I think TVH will show us the Blackwoods attempting to deny Ser Otho Stone Hedge upon the death of his father, with Bloodraven, being half-Blackwood, refusing to intervene.

The Blackwoods have no means to withhold Stone Hedge from Otho. But they certainly have a right to demand vengeance for Quentyn.

And Bloodraven's rationale in not doing anything about that wouldn't necessarily be his love for his Blackwood kin or his hatred of the Brackens but simply political calculation. Bittersteel is half-Bracken. If the Brackens are weakened they won't play that big a role should Bittersteel ever invade Westeros with another Blackfyre pretender.

[The Grey Wolf]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Blackwoods have no means to withhold Stone Hedge from Otho. But they certainly have a right to demand vengeance for Quentyn.

And Bloodraven's rationale in not doing anything about that wouldn't necessarily be his love for his Blackwood kin or his hatred of the Brackens but simply political calculation. Bittersteel is half-Bracken. If the Brackens are weakened they won't play that big a role should Bittersteel ever invade Westeros with another Blackfyre pretender.

Doesn't mean they won't try to deny him his birthright under the guise of seeking said vengeance. Particularly since both houses are equally-matched and among the most powerful in the Riverlands.

As for Bloodraven: I disagree. The guy isn't some cold, calculating super villain and nothing in the text suggests he doesn't love his family/share their grudges. 

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

As for Bloodraven: I disagree. The guy isn't some cold, calculating super villain and nothing in the text suggests he doesn't love his family/share their grudges. 

But he has to keep an eye on the bigger picture. He is the Hand of the King, not some Blackwood partisan. His first loyalty is to King Aerys and House Targaryen, not to his birth family and their grudges.

He was quite aware of Dagon Greyjoy's raids. He ignored them because he didn't have the resources to deal with the Ironborn and ensure the continued reign of his king.

[The Grey Wolf]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he has to keep an eye on the bigger picture. He is the Hand of the King, not some Blackwood partisan. His first loyalty is to King Aerys and House Targaryen, not to his birth family and their grudges.

He was quite aware of Dagon Greyjoy's raids. He ignored them because he didn't have the resources to deal with the Ironborn and ensure the continued reign of his king.

The Blackwood-Bracken feud is different. For one, it is much more personal and less distant than the II. Two, Bloodraven doesn't have to risk his only fleet to deal with the issue. As Hand he could simply weigh in on the matter or order some river lords to get between the two houses. Three, you have no proof that Bloodraven was not biased towards his own blood and until I receive such evidence from the text or the author I'm going to believe that he favored his family in all things because that's natural.