Tyrion Lannister Discussion v.251

[Tygett Lannister]

So I think previous thread was locked since it reached 21 pages (if I am wrong please don't hurt me) so let's continue discussion,

boom, go

 

[Tygett Lannister]

bump

[Universal Sword Donor]

Tyrion is an interesting character

[Wild Bill]

To all the anti-Tyrion posters in the prior thread... You have been persuasive enough to question my love of Tyrion (my favourite character, along with Arya). I still love him, but a number of his actions and thoughts are... disturbing...

I think of him as comic relief and, of course, doing a brilliant job ruling as the acting Hand - and handling Joffery and Cercei, et al. Then getting screwed out of accolade for his defense of KL, thence to the drama of his trial and such. And the sad, and mighty boring/irritating descent into grrms's Meerenese falseknot.

Blah, blah, blah,

Cheers

[Tygett Lannister]

15 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

To all the anti-Tyrion posters in the prior thread... You have been persuasive enough to question my love of Tyrion (my favourite character, along with Arya). I still love him, but a number of his actions and thoughts are... disturbing...

I think of him as comic relief and, of course, doing a brilliant job ruling as the acting Hand - and handling Joffery and Cercei, et al. Then getting screwed out of accolade for his defense of KL, thence to the drama of his trial and such. And the sad, and mighty boring/irritating descent into grrms's Meerenese falseknot.

Blah, blah, blah,

Cheers

Well in Essos he is very different. I don't defend him for what he does in Essos, but I don't judge him either.

[Faera]

I'm curious to know where his story is going. He has been going down such a dark path I wonder just how becoming part of the Dany plot-line is going to help that - her chapters can sometimes feel like a character graveyard...

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 10/31/2017 at 2:24 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

So I think previous thread was locked since it reached 21 pages (if I am wrong please don't hurt me) so let's continue discussion,

boom, go=

Try the search function. There are way more Tyrion threads than the two you have shown us. Anything that needs to be discussed has already been discussed far more times than the combined replies in these two threads 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

To all the anti-Tyrion posters in the prior thread... You have been persuasive enough to question my love of Tyrion (my favourite character, along with Arya). I still love him, but a number of his actions and thoughts are... disturbing...

I think of him as comic relief and, of course, doing a brilliant job ruling as the acting Hand - and handling Joffery and Cercei, et al. Then getting screwed out of accolade for his defense of KL, thence to the drama of his trial and such. And the sad, and mighty boring/irritating descent into grrms's Meerenese falseknot.

Blah, blah, blah,

Cheers

Me too. I'm very embarrassed to admit, through every reread, I've always thought Tyrion says Tywin forced him to watch & then participate in Tysha's gang rape. He doesn't say that. He says "He bid me watch...& he had me go last." 

To clarify I was aware that Tyrion had done other bad things & did not feel as if all of them were justified but felt as if this was the foundation of Tyrion's house being built & could understand how he became so skewed & didn't feel as if all of the blame laid with him. 

I still think Tyrion had a fairly rough childhood. His dad is neglectful & mean, his sister is cruel, he gets made fun of & put down. So I still understand where he is coming from at times but honestly the whole Tysha thing has shaken my core belief of Tyrion. I view him in a whole new light. 

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Try the search function. There are way more Tyrion threads than the two you have shown us. Anything that needs to be discussed has already been discussed far more times than the combined replies in these two threads 

Yes well everything on the forums have been discussed before but if we don't discuss them again we have nothing to discuss. Besides new people bring new ideas & thoughts to the discussion. 

[Wild Bill]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Try the search function. There are way more Tyrion threads than the two you have shown us. Anything that needs to be discussed has already been discussed far more times than the combined replies in these two threads 

Of course!

But new blood comes along and brings up the same old subjects, with just as much interest as in times past. At least there is some life here because of that.  (forgetting about the wildly unhinged and, sometimes incestuous, theory-mongering by old timers.)

[Wild Bill]

10 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too. I'm very embarrassed to admit, through every reread, I've always thought Tyrion says Tywin forced him to watch & then participate in Tysha's gang rape. He doesn't say that. He says "He bid me watch...& he had me go last." 

To clarify I was aware that Tyrion had done other bad things & did not feel as if all of them were justified but felt as if this was the foundation of Tyrion's house being built & could understand how he became so skewed & didn't feel as if all of the blame laid with him. 

I still think Tyrion had a fairly rough childhood. His dad is neglectful & mean, his sister is cruel, he gets made fun of & put down. So I still understand where he is coming from at times but honestly the whole Tysha thing has shaken my core belief of Tyrion. I view him in a whole new light. 

...

I am a very casual reader, reading for pure escapism. I've read the novels a number of times, with no concern about anything... Until I discovered the fandom a few months ago, it never occurred to me to consider Jon's parents - my, somnambulant, readings had me vaguely thinking that Jon's parentage must be important - but I'll just wait for grrm to tell me the answer.

Sad to say, I expect my next re-read will be very critical of Tyrion and everything else. Oooph, I'll have to pay attention as I read.

[Sigella]

14 hours ago, Faera said:

I'm curious to know where his story is going. He has been going down such a dark path I wonder just how becoming part of the Dany plot-line is going to help that - her chapters can sometimes feel like a character graveyard...

Same for me.

Although I suspect it won't be a graveyard but a Selmyesque re-build, finding his true path and being built up again as a better man sort of thing.

My belief is that Tyrion has severe deficiencies in affection and appreciation (everything he does is pretty much the sum of those two and all his actions and comments stems from it, seems to me) and I am super curious as to what he'll turn into when he no longer is poisoned with sex, self-pity and jealousy.

[Banner Without Brothers]

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too. I'm very embarrassed to admit, through every reread, I've always thought Tyrion says Tywin forced him to watch & then participate in Tysha's gang rape. He doesn't say that. He says "He bid me watch...& he had me go last." 

 

No I think you were right the first time. Bid and had is Tywin ordering a teenage boy to rape his first love. A person of authority, like a parent, ordering a person to have sex is rape. It doesn't seem like he had any choice in the matter. He's simultaneously the raper and the raped. Say for instance a general orders his soldiers to rape the local populace, who is more guilty the general or the soldier performing the act.

The same is true of the Sansa thing as situation as well.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

No I think you were right the first time. Bid and had is Tywin ordering a teenage boy to rape his first love. A person of authority, like a parent, ordering a person to have sex is rape. It doesn't seem like he had any choice in the matter. He's simultaneously the raper and the raped. Say for instance a general orders his soldiers to rape the local populace, who is more guilty the general or the soldier performing the act.

The same is true of the Sansa thing as situation as well.

I'm not so sure. I would feel much more comfortable if Tyrion had said "forced". "Bid" & " Had" leave too many options open. If it comes to light that Tywin did in fact force Tyrion then great. But I don't think telling him to constitutes forcing him. If Tywin threatened Tyrion with something plausible & life shattering - like "if you don't do it I will have Tysha killed" then he has been forced. If Tywin tells him to do it & Tyrion puts up no objection he wasn't forced. 

At any rate I think (I hope) the jury is still out on this but on previous rereads I always though Tyrion specifically stated that Tywin forced him. When I realized he didn't it was bothersome to me. I will say it's implied in the context of the conversation (ex: Bronn replying with "I would kill the man that did that to me") but it definitely isn't explicit. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

4 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

No I think you were right the first time. Bid and had is Tywin ordering a teenage boy to rape his first love. A person of authority, like a parent, ordering a person to have sex is rape. It doesn't seem like he had any choice in the matter. He's simultaneously the raper and the raped. Say for instance a general orders his soldiers to rape the local populace, who is more guilty the general or the soldier performing the act.

The same is true of the Sansa thing as situation as well.

For Tyrion, there was always a choice. Even if the consequences of refusing to comply would be dire (and in Tyrion's case I'm pretty sure they would be dire), that doesn't remove the fact that he had the choice.

The one who didn't have a choice was Tysha.

 

[Banner Without Brothers]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not so sure. I would feel much more comfortable if Tyrion had said "forced". "Bid" & " Had" leave too many options open. If it comes to light that Tywin did in fact force Tyrion then great. But I don't think telling him to constitutes forcing him. If Tywin threatened Tyrion with something plausible & life shattering - like "if you don't do it I will have Tysha killed" then he has been forced. If Tywin tells him to do it & Tyrion puts up no objection he wasn't forced. 

At any rate I think (I hope) the jury is still out on this but on previous rereads I always though Tyrion specifically stated that Tywin forced him. When I realized he didn't it was bothersome to me. I will say it's implied in the context of the conversation (ex: Bronn replying with "I would kill the man that did that to me") but it definitely isn't explicit. 

 

25 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

For Tyrion, there was always a choice. Even if the consequences of refusing to comply would be dire (and in Tyrion's case I'm pretty sure they would be dire), that doesn't remove the fact that he had the choice.

The one who didn't have a choice was Tysha.

 

For the first case, Tysha, we're talking about two minors so consent is already highly dubious. Then we have the fact that he's compelled into consent by someone who is in a position of authority. We're never told the consequences that would befall Tyrion if he refused, likely no actual threats were needed. They're not needed when the command comes from someone in a position of power over another. Especially if it's a scary dude, especially if it's Tywin Lannister. 

Blackmailing or threatening, even an implied threat, someone into a sex act is rape in my book. Any non consensual sex is rape and no an erection does not imply consent. Tyrion even spells this out with his "my cock betrayed me" comment. He didn't want to have sex while Tysha was clearly not consenting. 

That doesn't make Tyrion completely innocent but it does make him a victim. It doesn't mean the harm done to him is the same as the harm done to Tysha. If you want you could say it's different types of rape. But do we really want to say that one type of rape is better than another? 

With Sansa we get a very similar situation except this time he's coerced with promises of reward (Weinstein anyone?). This time stands up to his father and the rest of his family. Who again try to talk him into raping Sansa and deride him for not doing it. Joffrey even threatens to do the raping for him if he can't handle it himself. I really don't think it matters whether someone is coerced through threats of violence or threats of loss of wealth or anything it's still coercion and definitely not giving consent freely. 

[Richard Hoffman]

I’m actually shocked at how many of you are anti Tyrion! In real life we forgive severe actions for silly things like daddy issues yet we should dislike a fictional character who had a TERRIBLE life yet still managed to hold onto more decency than the majority of Martin’s characters? 

 

He definitely made a turn for the worse in book 5, yet after a trial where EVERYBODY testified against him without a shred of proof simply because of who he is, then finds out the love of his life WASN’T a whore but did in fact love him for him and the GUILT of what happened to her smacks him in the face, and then he finds Shae naked in his fathers bed before killing them (justly I might add) would be enough to send any man over the edge! And this is just a few days of his life! He spent every day of his life despised by those who should have loved him, was treated like a monster by his father, was mocked endlessly, yet a whore looks at him in disgust and we are surprised that he hate fu**s her? 

 

Anyway i I think that’s all besides the point, his character is meant to be at an all time low with no faith in anything so when he finally meets Dany his character arch can go back on the upswing. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Blackmailing or threatening, even an implied threat, someone into a sex act is rape in my book. Any non consensual sex is rape and no an erection does not imply consent. Tyrion even spells this out with his "my cock betrayed me" comment. He didn't want to have sex while Tysha was clearly not consenting. 

That doesn't make Tyrion completely innocent but it does make him a victim. It doesn't mean the harm done to him is the same as the harm done to Tysha. If you want you could say it's different types of rape. But do we really want to say that one type of rape is better than another? 

Please note that I never said Tyrion wasn't raped nor did I say he wasn't a victim (he definitely was). I said only that he had a choice whether or not to comply. His reasons for choosing to comply are all too understandable and forgivable. However, he still had a choice and he still made it.

I read the argument all the time that Tyrion "had no choice" to do what he did (this applies to his marrying Sansa as well), the reason being that the negative consequences negate that choice. That is wholly wrong, in my view.

[Tygett Lannister]

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Try the search function. There are way more Tyrion threads than the two you have shown us. Anything that needs to be discussed has already been discussed far more times than the combined replies in these two threads 

Changed, counted every Tyrion thread.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

For the first case, Tysha, we're talking about two minors so consent is already highly dubious. Then we have the fact that he's compelled into consent by someone who is in a position of authority. We're never told the consequences that would befall Tyrion if he refused, likely no actual threats were needed. They're not needed when the command comes from someone in a position of power over another. Especially if it's a scary dude, especially if it's Tywin Lannister. 

They are old enough to consent to marriage so they are old enough to consent to sex in my book. 

I get what you are saying the difference to me lies in whether Tyrion felt forced because of an implied or stated threat & what that threat was vs if Tyrion participated because he felt Tysha deserved it because she was a whore who tricked him. If it's the latter that makes Tyrion a pretty scary dude. 

8 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

Blackmailing or threatening, even an implied threat, someone into a sex act is rape in my book. Any non consensual sex is rape and no an erection does not imply consent. Tyrion even spells this out with his "my cock betrayed me" comment. He didn't want to have sex while Tysha was clearly not consenting. 

I would disagree that the threat of blackmail justifies rape. A threat may depending on the threat. He didn't want to but was that because he loved her & felt that what was going on was wrong? Or was it because she had just been taken by all the guards? Or was it because he was angry with her for what he perceived as a betrayal from her? 

 

8 hours ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

With Sansa we get a very similar situation except this time he's coerced with promises of reward (Weinstein anyone?). This time stands up to his father and the rest of his family. Who again try to talk him into raping Sansa and deride him for not doing it. Joffrey even threatens to do the raping for him if he can't handle it himself. I really don't think it matters whether someone is coerced through threats of violence or threats of loss of wealth or anything it's still coercion and definitely not giving consent freely. 

I think the situation with Sansa is very different than with Tysha. For starters we get to read the scene where Tywin tells Tyrion he is to marry Sansa so we know he wasn't forced. He allows himself to be talked into it with not too much of an argument. He never thinks to himself that he had to do it because Tywin would have killed him or some other consequence. He does refrain from raping her which is good. His family absolutely tries to chide him into it. 

I think it absolutely matters if the threat is a threat of violence vs a threat of loss of wealth. If you will rape someone to keep a money flow you are a rapist. Period. If you rape someone to save yourself or someone else from being murdered, maimed, tortured etc then you are a victim. There is a huge difference. It's absolutely giving consent if you are talked into it. You still have a choice. You have just decided that your own continued wealth is more important to you than the consent of the person you are having sex with. 

8 hours ago, Richard Hoffman said:

I’m actually shocked at how many of you are anti Tyrion! In real life we forgive severe actions for silly things like daddy issues yet we should dislike a fictional character who had a TERRIBLE life yet still managed to hold onto more decency than the majority of Martin’s characters? 

I actually love Tyrion but I, for one, think you can't really justify rape with daddy issues. Any more than a child molester is justified because they were molested as a child. 

[Wild Bill]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

....

I think it absolutely matters if the threat is a threat of violence vs a threat of loss of wealth. If you will rape someone to keep a money flow you are a rapist. Period. If you rape someone to save yourself or someone else from being murdered, maimed, tortured etc then you are a victim. There is a huge difference. It's absolutely giving consent if you are talked into it. You still have a choice. You have just decided that your own continued wealth is more important to you than the consent of the person you are having sex with. 

I actually love Tyrion but I, for one, think you can't really justify rape with daddy issues. Any more than a child molester is justified because they were molested as a child. 

Problematic phrasing there, mate. Rape is rape, motivation and coercion are not material. Even though you mitigate your statement.

Now, to take Tyrions experience, as related, he was forced (traumatized?) into getting it up and participating as well... [really? is that possible?]

I've always taken this story as some "official story" that Tyrion has about a deeply shameful part of his past. This has been "informed" by my own notion that rape would not be possible for me. I would and could not ever perform that act (so I think). Therefor, Tyrion's relation of the story is more of his "traumatized" self, and perhaps becoming to believe he really did heinous things due to whatever psychosis Tyrion might have.

So I have told myself. But... Prior incarnations of this thread make me think...