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Mother Cocanuts

Gun Control III: the Hedge Knight Rises.

248 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

O yay MORE guns in schools.  Just what schools need.  Especially without mental health check-ups.

The guns don't need to be in schools, any more than drivers ed needs to be in schools. It just needs to be offered by schools. 

In a perfect world the students would not be allowed to have guns except in those classes, the guns wouldn't be anywhere near school property and safety courses could be overridden by a number of excuses (similar to PE waiving or health class waivers for certain topics). 

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9 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Shooting at an Elementary school in Cali. Wtf.

As someone once said, there is no more gun control debate in this country. If we didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, we never will. Killing children is now acceptable collateral damage. 

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https://apnews.com/daa2b18d6f5542f88c2d4b4bafd21ce1?

Quote

RED BLUFF, Calif. (AP) — A series of shootings at multiple locations in rural Northern California left three people dead and several others wounded Tuesday, including students at an elementary school, authorities said.

Law enforcement officers killed the shooter, but it was not clear if authorities counted it among the three deaths.

Tehama County Assistant Sheriff Phil Johnston tells a TV station in the city of Chico that officers are investigating at least five crime scenes in and around the school in Rancho Tehama Reserve, about 130 miles north of Sacramento.

“It was right about 8 a.m. we had multiple shots fired in Rancho Tehama,” Johnston said. “That evolved to multiple victims and multiple shots at the school, at the elementary school. I am told at this point the suspected shooter is deceased by law enforcement bullets, that’s what I’m told.”

Jeanine Quist, an administrative assistant with the Corning Union Elementary School District, said no one was killed at the school with kindergarten through fifth grades but that a “number” of students were shot and wounded.

Johnston said the school had been cleared by 10 a.m. but he did not have any information about the victims there.

Three people were being treated at a hospital in Redding, about 50 miles north of the shootings, Mercy Medical Center spokeswoman Marcy Miracle said. She declined to provide other details about the victims or their injuries.

 

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6 minutes ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

As someone once said, there is no more gun control debate in this country. If we didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, we never will. Killing children is now acceptable collateral damage. 

Yeah well like I said, the TExas Church shooter short crying BABIES in the head. And we didn't do shit. So, yeah. Fuck humanity.

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Man, Red Bluff, that brings back some memories. We used to spend about a week out of every summer up there as our neighbors owned a ranch there. Pretty close to home.

 

/Strangely enough, that's where I learned to target shoot, load and clean a gun, etc.

Edited by Manhole Eunuchsbane

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5 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

As someone once said, there is no more gun control debate in this country. If we didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, we never will. Killing children is now acceptable collateral damage. 

To an outsider, the debate looks over. Guns have won for good in the USA. There is literally no evil they can commit that cannot be excused as worthy to being able to keep them, unrestricted and unregulated.

If a birth suite was shot up, killing literally newborn babies, it would not change a thing, as horrible as that is.

Americans, or at least enough Americans, love their guns too much. They cannot bear to go without them, no matter the literal human cost of this. They make you feel powerful, and losing that power is too much to bear.

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11 minutes ago, Yukle said:

To an outsider, the debate looks over. Guns have won for good in the USA. There is literally no evil they can commit that cannot be excused as worthy to being able to keep them, unrestricted and unregulated.

If a birth suite was shot up, killing literally newborn babies, it would not change a thing, as horrible as that is.

Americans, or at least enough Americans, love their guns too much. They cannot bear to go without them, no matter the literal human cost of this. They make you feel powerful, and losing that power is too much to bear.

I think this is partially true and partially not.

Americans love their individuality. And they really, really love their rights. They care much less about federal issues and much more about local ones, and this comes down to caring a great deal that federal laws do not overstep their rights.

And gun rights are very much in the intersection of federal laws and individual rights.

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7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I think this is partially true and partially not.

Americans love their individuality. And they really, really love their rights...

I find this reasoning plausible but don't see evidence that it's true in other areas.

Americans have the right to vote, too, but don't kick up much fuss that their votes are suppressed with ridiculous gerrymandering, voting on Tuesday, long queues, very few voting booths, not being able to vote if they have the same name as a felon, not being able to vote if they are a "felon", requiring photos IDs from states that don't put photos on drivers licenses - and on it goes.

Americans have the right to protection from arbitrary arrest and to a speedy and fair trial, but their rights are frequently trampled with unreasonable plea-bargain deals, unreasonable arrests targeting race, disproportionate punishments for minor drug offences and the likes.

Americans have lots of enshrined rights that are frequently stripped from them. Guns are the only one that they seem to go bananas protecting.

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8 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

Americans love their individuality.

I see very little evidence for this.

Americans like to seem to follow the crowd.

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3 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I see very little evidence for this.

Americans like to seem to follow the crowd.

This. They love to be told what to do and how to think. That's how we elected Mango Mussolini--they love their authoritarians because they have no capacity for self-thought, self-reflection or critical thinking. That's also why they're religious nutters. 

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14 hours ago, Yukle said:

To an outsider, the debate looks over. Guns have won for good in the USA. There is literally no evil they can commit that cannot be excused as worthy to being able to keep them, unrestricted and unregulated.

If a birth suite was shot up, killing literally newborn babies, it would not change a thing, as horrible as that is.

Correct.

Quote

Americans, or at least enough Americans, love their guns too much. They cannot bear to go without them, no matter the literal human cost of this. They make you feel powerful, and losing that power is too much to bear.

This is true, but it requires one caveat. Politics has become so tribal here in the U.S., and as a result of that there are a lot of people on the right who normally wouldn’t care that much about gun rights who are now heavily invested in them because the left is perceived as wanting to take them away.

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Wisconsin gub signs bill allowing toddlers to have guns (masquerading as eliminating minimum age for hunting):

http://wgntv.com/2017/11/13/gov-scott-walker-eliminates-wisconsins-minimum-hunting-age/

By the way, Wisconsin is an open carry state, so the kindergardeners and first graders could bring their guns to school, no problem.

In the meantime what happened in California yesterday has barely registered on the national media.  Sheeeeeeitttttttttttttt!  when they throw 2 -3 mass shootings at us every week how can we keep up or care?  Tax cuts! Hillary's uranium!  Unregulated rights to shoot whatever, wherever at whomever we want! That's what we need to worry about (not availability of health care for the people who have been shot, and if not dead, maimed for life).

 

Edited by Zorral

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14 hours ago, Yukle said:

I find this reasoning plausible but don't see evidence that it's true in other areas.

Americans have the right to vote, too, but don't kick up much fuss that their votes are suppressed with ridiculous gerrymandering, voting on Tuesday, long queues, very few voting booths, not being able to vote if they have the same name as a felon, not being able to vote if they are a "felon", requiring photos IDs from states that don't put photos on drivers licenses - and on it goes.

They don't care about voting nearly as much, honestly. This is obvious given the turnout, and this has been true for a while. 

14 hours ago, Yukle said:

Americans have the right to protection from arbitrary arrest and to a speedy and fair trial, but their rights are frequently trampled with unreasonable plea-bargain deals, unreasonable arrests targeting race, disproportionate punishments for minor drug offences and the likes.

They don't have an explicit constitutional right from arbitrary arrest; this is an interpretation, and a fairly weak one. And 'fairness' is often in the eyes of the beholder; white people get quite upset when they don't get a fair trial. 

Minorities, on the other hand, are already seen as criminals and fairness to them is seen as giving them penalties that they didn't actually earn. 

14 hours ago, Yukle said:

Americans have lots of enshrined rights that are frequently stripped from them. Guns are the only one that they seem to go bananas protecting.

This becomes a lot easier to understand if you substitute 'white males in America' for "Americans".

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14 hours ago, lessthanluke said:

I see very little evidence for this.

Americans like to seem to follow the crowd.

They certainly do - but they do so while trumpeting their individuality. They especially bristle when, say, other world leaders denounce their leader - if anything, that's a better sign that they're doing the right thing. 

Most values are like this for people in general. Pointing out that they're hypocrits doesn't really matter here, as what we're discussing is the preference. I mean, even saying that you are a Real American is obviously non-individualistic, but it goes part and parcel with American culture not liking being told what to do as a law. 

10 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

This. They love to be told what to do and how to think. That's how we elected Mango Mussolini--they love their authoritarians because they have no capacity for self-thought, self-reflection or critical thinking. That's also why they're religious nutters. 

Remember, the same Americans who elected Trump also elected Obama 4 years prior. And some places went overwhelmingly for Obama in 2012 and then went overwhelmingly for Trump in 2016. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

They don't have an explicit constitutional right from arbitrary arrest; this is an interpretation, and a fairly weak one.

That due process of law exists to prevent the arbitrary administration of law is not a weak interpretation of due process. Due process is a standard that applies to all criminal proceedings. Therefore, I don't see how a constitutional protection against arbitrary arrest is a "fairly weak" interpretation of the Constitution. It's literally applying the accepted standard of what constitutes due process of law and applying it to proceedings that are explicitly deemed applicable by the text of the constitution.  

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@Kalbear, is that really what this is gonna boil down to, again; white guys?  This is getting old.  It would seem that progressives, whose foundation seems to be equality, wouldn’t base all the worlds problems on one group of people.  I’m sorry, as this is not directed specifically at you, but to see someone as intelligent as you say “well white guys”, is a little off-putting.  Or the whole Ef America thing,(and I’m not a proponent of “America is the greatest country because...”) as if the world was kicking along just fine and then America introduced evil to the world.

Saying people with firearms (which I don’t think you did) are okay with with the murder of children is gross, and only causes more division.  Some knee jerk fix-all to gun violence isn’t going to work, unless the entirety of the American people are willing to shred the constitution and deal with some uncomfortable and obscene power grabs by the police, as well as state and federal governments.

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If the white guy shoe fits, wear it. 

White guys assume due process. Minorities don't. 

White guys assume they can openly carry weapons. Minorities get laws passed explicitly to deny them that. 

White guys go to rehab for drug use. Minorities go to prison. 

This doesn't mean it's white guy's fault, but recognizing that white men play by a different set of rules is important. 

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Don’t you think that largely depends upon the money someone can bring to the table?

The due process, everyone should assume that, though few will get it.

Open carry applies to all, I’m sure white guys flaunt it more.

The drug thing, I think that may just be your opinion, with all due respect.  The war on drugs (when the us gov. declares a war on anything then everyone should be wary) has ruined a lot of people; white, black, man, woman.  IMHO, it doesn’t discriminate.  

This isn’t just for you, but anyone who wants to answer; but do you think the people of eastern Kentucky, who’ve seen record overdoses in the past few years, have no hope of new jobs, and no hope of anyone caring about their plight, are any different from any minority in the us?

Edited by King Ned Stark

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7 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Don’t you think that largely depends upon the money someone can bring to the table?

The due process, everyone should assume that, though few will get it.

Open carry applies to all, I’m sure white guys flaunt it more.

The drug thing, I think that may just be your opinion, with all due respect.  The war on drugs (when the us gov. declares a war on anything then everyone should be wary) has ruined a lot of people; white, black, man, woman.  IMHO, it doesn’t discriminate.  

This isn’t just for you, but anyone who wants to answer; but do you think the people of eastern Kentucky, who’ve seen record overdoses in the past few years, have no hope of new jobs, and no hope of anyone caring about their plight, are any different from any minority in the us?

Come on, dude. Crack epidemic in the 1980s, mostly affected black people, society's response was lock up everyone they could. Let the rest murder each other. White people start dying in the opioid epidemic, and society decides we need to react with compassion, focus on treatment and diversion programs.

You may not realize that California's strict gun laws were signed by Governor Ronald Reagan, when the Black Panthers started exercising their 2nd Amendment rights.

If you don't see the racially disaparate impact of law enforcement and drug policies, you haven't been paying attention.

Yes, money makes a difference, but skin color absolutely makes a difference. A poor white person may be abused by the police. A poor black person definitely will. A rich white man will almost certainly get treated with kid gloves by police. And maybe a wealthy black man may get treated well too. But tell Michael Bennett or James Blake that their money protects them from police abuse.

Edited by DanteGabriel

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