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Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues


Larry of the Lawn

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3 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Doubt an adaptation would be successful, GoT is successful because it has characters that people are deeply emotional about (the Starks/Lannisters) and the political intrigue. Bakker doesn't have either (unless you count Cnaiur as a character to identify with).

One of the reasons adaptations can work is the same reason film properties crave them - they have a built-in audience of fans that will likely see it. GOT had that, and early on they were a big reason that the show continued. The books have never hit the numbers that the show does but it's still a couple million around the world. Same with WoT, Last Kingdom, Shannarra, etc.

For Bakker they have to basically hope that the story itself is compelling enough to pick up. And honestly, if Amazon is picking up LotR fanfic, they're gonna give Bakker a hard pass. 

The good news is that the entertainment industry is in the throes of a massive backlash against sexism, so I'm sure the very anti-sexist Earwa stories will do well somewhere else

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7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

What's interesting to me in that is how the only word italicized is 'witch', which implies to me that this is the reason she's a ciphrang - because she is a woman practicing sorcery, which is really really bad in the grand good place / bad place scoring. 

(an aside: The Good Place has a more nuanced and more reasonable system for afterlife than Bakker's books, which makes it really good. Y'all should watch it.)

Get out of my brain, dvd of season 1 just arrived in the mail like...10 mins ago.

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15 hours ago, Hello World said:

Doubt an adaptation would be successful, GoT is successful because it has characters that people are deeply emotional about (the Starks/Lannisters) and the political intrigue. Bakker doesn't have either (unless you count Cnaiur as a character to identify with).

PoN has a fair amount of political intrigue, particularly with Conphas and Xerius.  That was one of the biggest things I missed in Aspect Emperor.  And even what little politics there was ended up being mostly irrelevant (for example, the Maithanet/Esmenet power struggle, the Fanayal uprising).

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Well, I find it laughable when people said that adaption on TSA couldn't be done right was a budget, it have to be animation. When Amazon just shelled out 250 mil for the rights to LotR. They could have paid a penance of that for the rights to TSA and done the series justice with a huge budget. Even if its not Bakker, give me something new. I don't care about elves in the Simillarion. Boring shit if you ask me.

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The idea is spend far less on an up and comer and use the saved money for a bigger production budget for it. Instead of buying an old idea for a large amount then spend even more for production. Whether it'd sell is speculation - harry potter and game of thrones were at one point just speculative efforts.

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7 hours ago, Maithanet said:

PoN has a fair amount of political intrigue, particularly with Conphas and Xerius.  That was one of the biggest things I missed in Aspect Emperor.  And even what little politics there was ended up being mostly irrelevant (for example, the Maithanet/Esmenet power struggle, the Fanayal uprising).

It really doesn't have that much intrigue past part of the first book. Once you get into TWP, there's basically nothing at all; it all gets subsumed by Kellhus and his amazing ability to convince anyone to do anything. I suspect there's actually a bit more of it in TAE than PON if you take it by word count. 

The problem is that the political intrigue in PON is largely a sideshow with characters that are deeply horrible, and the result is nothing anyone particularly cares about. It maps well to the first crusade, so it's got that going for it, but beyond that it's not really that relevant to the overall story. Compare this to GOT, where the political intrigue directly causes a massive war, and it's really not a fair comparison. 

But that wasn't the point; the point was not about the political intrigue, it was about the actual characters. Especially when doing an adaptation characters really matter. And there just aren't that many really compelling ones in PON. There really aren't that many characters, period, in PON. 

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2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

The idea is spend far less on an up and comer and use the saved money for a bigger production budget for it. Instead of buying an old idea for a large amount then spend even more for production. Whether it'd sell is speculation - harry potter and game of thrones were at one point just speculative efforts.

Yes but by that logic they're not going to throw much at the budget since it's not as popular.

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Harry Potter (as a movie) wasn't remotely ever 'just speculative efforts'. Game of Thrones was, but it still was a much safer bet given how well it had sold and how many fans it actually had and how much of a community (such as Ran) it had built up. Plus GRRM working on hollywood work and understanding scripting helped as well. 

I'll put it another way: there are a LOT more spec fic properties out there that have significantly more fans, more buzz, are easier properties to film and are less problematic in the cultural values of today. 

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The First Law would work far better than PoN as a TV show, I think even something like Thomas Covenant would work better.

Likeable characters are few and far between in PoN. 

Cniur is probably my favourite, and he is an unredeamable rapist and murderer. He is an awful human being on every level. Compare him to Logan Nine Fingers, who is also a complete and utter bastard, but he's redeemable, theres more to him than 'murdering rapist'.

I really enjoyed PoN, but honestly, its too brutal to film. The torture and blinding of Xinemus is a fantastic scene (I know not this man) but can you imagine it on film? 

If it was up to me, I'd go for the First Law to do an adaptation. 

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I was just stating that the "big" worry or drawback you heard was the budget for TSA would be too high, it have to be anime. Well that 250 mil shot that idea out of the sky, no?

I understand LotR is widely more popular. I know Bakker wouldnt get 250 mil for rights. That's not even close to what I said. 

Really, I could care less if it was TSA, just something new, not the fucking Hobbits. Its been done. Oh, I guess this will be about elves. First Law, Gentleman's Bastards and there is a whole lot more is like to see instead of LotR. That's all.

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a brief summary of Xerius Conphas political intrigue:

Xerius, alone in throne room begins cackling, "Ho ho! I am plotting intrigues and plans within plans, beware!"

Conphas, hundreds of miles away, alone, "hmm, I ponder that mine nuncle is cackling... Zounds! there must be political intrigue coming, I shall thwart it because I have the smarts!"

(no one ever interacts in a scene together and nothing much happens as it is an irrelevant side story, so irrelevant any adaptation should combine conphas and xerius into one character)

a brief summary of GOT political intrigue

direct character interaction with extensive dialogue and constant repercussions ^5

indirect character repercussions ^15 

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55 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

You realize that the 250 mil that Amazon paid to acquire the rights to make a Lord of the Rings adaptation is not going to be the project's budget, right?

Yes. Of course, that's the whole point. The shelled out 250 mil for rights....do you think budget on production would be a concern?

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