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Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues


Larry of the Lawn

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2 hours ago, Hello World said:

If you wanted to give viewers a book where the main character fails, as Callan wants, it already happened, GoT was that book.

Now now, what we had was the suggestion of a LOTR prequel based around Strider. Strider can't die, it fucks the chronology. Yet another work where the main character, in order to make sure RL mortgages are paid, will never freakin' die. Just this one is even more explicit.

It'd be nice to have more than two examples to rub together against all the undying protagonists out there. So that some more brief candle living can haunt the never dying dead.

2 hours ago, Hello World said:

The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father.

Ah! Vengence. Indeed-dily doodilly.

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There's a few things they could build off for an Aragorn-centered prequel series to LOTR. 

1. He lost his father at two , and was raised at Rivendell (it adds some more interesting subtext to his interactions with Elrond when you figure that Elrond is sort of his surrogate father figure, looking after his many-times-great-grand-nephew). 

2. He wandered all over the place in the North and elsewhere - it's even mentioned IIRC that he went into the mostly-off-the-maps east of Rhun and south into Harad (where the "stars are strange").  

3. He carried out a raid in disguise along with some of the other rangers that wiped out almost all of Umber's naval power.

4. He at the very least helped out Gandalf to search for Gollum, and did other stuff between the events at Bilbo's party and Frodo's departure. 

5. He heads south and ends up at Lothlorien, where he meets Galadriel and Arwen.

They negotiated for five seasons IIRC, and all five of those could be major foci for seasons. 

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Wait for the tacked on side kick character, probably female for political reasons, who is added because they can actually die - and because they can die (and maybe because they turn out to be female), they will. Which also neatly cleans up future continuity questions (why wasn't X around?). Clockwork.

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What if kellhus wanted to "die" ? Normal Kellhus could have easily bitchslap Kelmomas... only ajokly was all confused because he could not see. 

So scenario 1: Kellus wins without ajoklis help, still needs kel to be the No-god so he can close the world and free himself. 

 

Scenario 2: ajokli takes over. The only being capable of killing him is kel... he does it, kellhus survives on the other head 

 

This might actually make sense. He tells maloweby not to worry, this is conditioned ground

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Kelmomas didn't beat Kellhus, he just confused the Ajokli possession of Kellhus and Kellhus's training couldn't come back online quickly enough to avoid a skin spy slapping a chorae on his foot.

 

By the way that skin spy went up six levels instantly. Lot of XP in that one!

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6 hours ago, Lutarez said:

What if kellhus wanted to "die" ? Normal Kellhus could have easily bitchslap Kelmomas... only ajokly was all confused because he could not see. 

Kellhus didn't  die at the hands of Kelmomas; a skin-spy killed him.

 

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how does it make zero sense? 

 

Kellhus realizes that his "darkness" is Ajokli, he realizes that he has been played for years and years, probably since leaving ishual or at least since the circumfiction, or since the beginning of time if gods are timeless.

 

He knows that going closer to Golgotterath will make it more likely that he will be taken over, he also knows that it will probably happen in the golden room. So he creates this long term plan: He needs to get rid of the god. The only way he can do this is trough the logos (aka his own willpower) or trough closing of world with the help of the No-God. (it may seem desperate and it might not work, but this is the only thing he can do). 

  

So he enters the golden room. If he can overpower  Ajokli than things will go well. He will destroy the consult, trick the god and that's it. If he can't do it, then Ajokli will destroy the whole world. That's no good. 

 

This is when Kellmomas comes in, he is the only one who can defeat the god. He knows that the dunsult will realize this and he will "die"...Either by Kelmomas' hand, a skinspy, the dunsult themselves etc, doesn't matter. He trusts that they will make the right choice and use this only chance to defeat ajokli. 

 

A detail that important is that Ajokli can't sense Kellhus. He is on some way hidden. Why not do this before? that would make the whole theory fall apart...I think he wanted to try to overpower Ajokli. Also, without the No-god Kellhus' soul would join the outside, now it's trapped on earth . Together with the decapitants and Mimaras baby he has some sort of plan.

 

 

 

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Lutarez, it sounds like competence projection "Kellhus is a player, he couldn't just get played...!"

58 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

He didn't know Ajolki was his darkness

I hadn't thought of that, that he misidentified Esme as his darkness. He could feel the darkness welling, so he went back to her as the presumed source.

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How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

 

Kinda funny seeing you accuse others of "projecting" in this thread, considering crazy theories and discussion in one of the main reason people come here... 

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

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58 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

Bakker explicitly states that Kellhus didn't know.

58 minutes ago, Lutarez said:

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

This is one of the biggest reasons that a lot of people got mad about the AMA. The general thought was that Kellhus intended Ajokli to take over and do something about it but was either surprised or had future plans, but he always knew Ajokli would have power there and had made an explicit deal. It turns out that Kellhus was weak in spirit and had become possessed, and didn't know. Just like apparently the DunSult, which are now possessed by Shae. 

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1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

Right or you could have, you know, read the thread to find out that your theory had been debunked at least 6 or 7 times quite a while ago.

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8 hours ago, Lutarez said:

How do we know that he was unaware of the possesion ? He says the golden room is conditioned ground.  He also becomes more worried as he approaches a topos, the place wierd shit happens.

 

Kinda funny seeing you accuse others of "projecting" in this thread, considering crazy theories and discussion in one of the main reason people come here... 

 

What I wrote might not be what bakker intended, but it is supported by the text. Blame him for not being clear enough, not me for trying to understanding it...

The thing is you don't provide evidence any evidence as to why he isn't just being played. You're saying he could be thinking this and he could be knowing that. Sure, he could - if he isn't just being played. How is he knowing all this and avoiding having the wool pulled over his eyes? The idea he knows what is going on just needs an explanation of why he would know the whole Ajokli take over is happening.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're not doing a satisfying theory here when you don't describe why you think Kellhus would avoid having the wool pulled over your eyes, you just treat it that he just didn't.

Take it that we're asking for an even more comprehensive theory from you. Just give us something on how Kellhus detected Ajokli hacking him - the how of how he detected that. Remember when Kellhus basically talks to a copy of himself ('Who better to burn them') - it's gunna be hard to detect a hack from something that seems to be oneself. It's like an immune system being unable to detect an invader which looks exactly like the body its trying to protect. What theory do you have in regard to that? We're all cracked pots together, here!

 

7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Just like apparently the DunSult, which are now possessed by Shae.

Please, a valid, interesting speculation. But don't confuse things with the guy by saying it's a fact.

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I have been reading the threads, since the books release. Maybe I missed this. 

 

As for the AMA, I know a lot of people where pissed off, me too...  however he also made it a point that giving your own interpretation is a good thing.  

 

Still, The effects on this thread where quite disasterous, seems soon it will be dead

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1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

Still, The effects on this thread where quite disasterous, seems soon it will be dead

Entire forums have died after the series they're dedicated to ended, not sure why this is surprising.

eta: I know it's supposedly not over, but for now there is not much to speculate about regarding the next series of books. And past efforts to theorize based on info already available ended badly.

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