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Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues


Larry of the Lawn

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3 hours ago, Lutarez said:

What we don't get enough of is: the bashrag. How do they think? what's up with them? Are they also "great lovers" like the others? In my imagination they are the most "foggy"...

I believe there is a short bashrag POW in The Great Ordeal before the nuke goes off at Dagliash.

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14 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

If this were really the case I'm surprised that Bakker didn't give us more Kellhus POVs. Kellhus slowly succumbing to a god's possession and not knowing it would be a hell of a lot more interesting to read (and reread) than two-hundred pages of cannibalistic rape-orgies.

Honestly, what the hell was the point of that?

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20 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Honestly, what the hell was the point of that?

Well it wasn't 200 pages of rape orgies, it was actually a short section. Bakker has said that he would like to write, some time, a book about Kellhus as seen through his perspective. Though he's says it would most likely be as ambiguous as any of his writing, if not more so.

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some Kellhus POV chapters would have made the "he was wrong and being deceived" theme much more impactful. It would have also given some structure to the story, giving us some insight on how he views past events and also how he prepares for the future. 

 

Most importantly though...we had to journey with him. He was in many ways the most interesting(at least indirectly) character in the first series, he was the "prime mover". Without him, nothing would have happened... 

 

He serves the same functions as in the first series, but without the personal touch. Seeing Kellhus figure out stuff, stumble, plan and take on the "worldborn" was great! In my view at least, that is the single biggest disappointment in the aspect emperor, the lack of that emperor.

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1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

some Kellhus POV chapters would have made the "he was wrong and being deceived" theme much more impactful. It would have also given some structure to the story, giving us some insight on how he views past events and also how he prepares for the future. 

 

Most importantly though...we had to journey with him. He was in many ways the most interesting(at least indirectly) character in the first series, he was the "prime mover". Without him, nothing would have happened... 

 

He serves the same functions as in the first series, but without the personal touch. Seeing Kellhus figure out stuff, stumble, plan and take on the "worldborn" was great! In my view at least, that is the single biggest disappointment in the aspect emperor, the lack of that emperor.

Yep. And keeping us in the dark with Kellhus only makes sense if his plan is truly monstrous and horrible - which we thought it was when Ajokli took over. We had all thought this was part of Kellhus' plan, and that he once and for all was an evil monster, just like the Consult and just like Yatwer. The question of whether or not he was the savior or the horror was finally answered.

Except...that's not what it actually was. And so we're totally robbed of it.

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3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

OK, still doesn't answer my question, the point of it was...?

As I understand, there was a scene, a crucial one at that, left out of the final draft. I know of it. Basically, all the Mandati thought themselves Seswatha. Those the did not partake of the "meat" were deemed holy. And, Sorweel's tutor, who didn't eat Sranc was named Grandmaster of the Mandate. Along with other little revelations. But, for whatever reason, it was cut. Bad decision, me thinks.

As to your question specifically. The rape orgy as its become to be known as, was simply showing us the results of what eating Sranc will do to a human. If you remember, somewhere in TGO, Sorweel has inner dialogue about a group of Skarpus men who resorted to eating Sranc, then ultimately cannibalism. How they were shunned and such, and there might have been a cure for it. It also shows Kellhus's plan and part of the reason he left....to lay the blame at the feet of Proyas. There's more to it than just cannibal, sex orgies. That's a very shallow reading, imo.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Allow me to respond with one of my famous emoji posts::rolleyes:

That's fine. But, when youbdont look at previous installments and what the scene meant, it shows a lack of understanding, to just call it a cannibalistic orgy. More to it, as is the case in all of Bakker's work. And, although I've yet to do a reread, another brought it to my attention that section is merely 20 pages long. Not 200 or even a great deal of the book. Its another case of pointing out what people don't like and imagining it was worse than what it was. And, that it served no purpose, when in fact it did. It lead directly to the death of Proyas.

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4 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

So it was a test to see how much crap loyal fans would read through?

And, I find this amusing. There a a very few series (fantasy) that can make me think about life and the mysteries therein the book, like TSA does. I like a lot of fantasy, but most of it is amateur hour compared to Bakker. Meaning, nothing original. Farm boy, saves world and the like. I have a handful I'm quite fond of for their ingenuity and pushing the boundaries. But, there not many. And, I consider myself well read in fantasy, as its about all I read anymore. And, I read on average 30-40 books a year. Malazan, Traitor Son Cycle, Land of Heroes, ASOIAF (obviously), and a few others have grabbed me the way TSA has. There's probably a couple I missed, but most are uninventive and Potterish. But, thats me and my tastes.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Farm boys haven't been saving the world in any fantasy I can think of from the last 15 years or so, and I read about 100 books a year. 

Right. But, what I meant from that is there is not much out there in the way of pushing the boundaries. 

10 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yes and his death and entire plot line also seemed to have no point. But

1. I'm not the one who called it a canabalistic orgy

2. Glancing at me copy today, it looked like it took up at least 80 pages. Maybe I can work out an exact percentage for you all on the weekend.

Well, the crossing of the Fields Appalling might take up a bigger portion, but the orgy rape fest is only 20 pages or so. And, regardless, wether you like it or not, it served a purpose. People tend to exxagerate on things they dislike, and this is a great example of that. Though, I will not argue about the use of the word Cunny. ;)

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10 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I could retort, whether you like it or not, it served no purpose. Maybe we should start a poll.

Why would we need a poll? I just told you what purpose it served. That's irrefutable. That's why I said its a shallow reading, to say it served no purpose. Take a poll. That would show me how little or how much attention was paid. Might explain the negative reviews a little better. Most people, who've done reread of TUC have came away with a new appreciation for it. Missing the small things while binging on it. I want to do a reread after I'm done with the Traitor Son Cycle. Which, I'm quite honestly stunned I haven't reread it by now, as all books of the series are truly worth, or maybe needed to be reread. Because of Bakker's style, people tend to miss a lot. Example: did the Nonman fighting the Ciphrang find oblivion? I found that quite obvious in my first reread that indeed he did. But, I'm sure there is a ton I missed that might explain somethings better.

 

26 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Farm boys haven't been saving the world in any fantasy I can think of from the last 15 years or so, and I read about 100 books a year. 

You read a book every 3 days? Wow. I have 3 kids, I could never reach that amount. So why do you have the biggest TBR pile on Earth?

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