Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

[Darth Richard II]

That was some what tounge in cheek, but please do chime in. I think I know your answer anyway.

[Hello World]

8 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

Guess I'm not that loyal as I stopped after a certain point in TUC. lolol

I didn't stop reading altogether but I did skim through the pointless 150 pages of cannibalistic rape orgy.

[unJon]

4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

First of all, you just contradicted yourself. If it was explained in the previous book, then it was entirely unnecessary to have a long, protracted sequence where the Men of the Ordeal succumb to the meat. They say "show don't tell", but if you already told, don't spend multiple chapters showing. Especially when the thing you're showing doesn't ultimately have any real impact upon the larger story.

Side note: Not that it would have saved the whole sequence, but this is another area where showing a few Kellhus POVs could provide an interesting parallel between himself and what the Ordeal was experiencing.

There's a glowing defense. "It's not as bad as everyone claims."

Which didn't really affect the story all that much, did it?

This is an extremely juvenile attitude to take.

I hated the cannabalistc orgy as much as the next guy, but your response is not fair.  The TGO Sorweel inner monologue was by way of foreshadowing and now “explaining everything” so rendering the scene moot. MSJ didn’t contradict himself. 

Also the Sorweel downfall and death was some of the most moving and best (IMO) parts of the book. YMMV

 

[Lutarez]

Can we read the original draft anywhere ? Or did anyone make a list of differences between the two ?

[Hello World]

No way any original drafts are available to us. I think he's referring to comments Bakker supposedly made at Zaudunyanicon. I would take claims like this with a grain of salt, anyway. (Edit: actually I would dismiss them outright. YMMV.) Why would any "crucial scenes" be cut out when we got the CRO after Bakker split the book and added at least 4 chapters to it post-split and a glossary that's mostly redundant and two shorts? Did Bakker himself say that it's crucial? If so, why is it not in the book?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

59 minutes ago, Hello World said:

No way any original drafts are available to us. I think he's referring to comments Bakker supposedly made at Zaudunyanicon. I would take claims like this with a grain of salt, anyway. (Edit: actually I would dismiss them outright. YMMV.) Why would any "crucial scenes" be cut out when we got the CRO after Bakker split the book and added at least 4 chapters to it post-split and a glossary that's mostly redundant and two shorts? Did Bakker himself say that it's crucial? If so, why is it not in the book?

They were in the original manuscript.  Those who read it, posted at length about it at the other site. Bakker said nothing about it at the Con, which I wasn't even at. And, the actual CRO is about 20 pages of the book. That's irrefutable.

2 hours ago, unJon said:

I hated the cannabalistc orgy as much as the next guy, but your response is not fair.  The TGO Sorweel inner monologue was by way of foreshadowing and now “explaining everything” so rendering the scene moot. MSJ didn’t contradict himself. 

Also the Sorweel downfall and death was some of the most moving and best (IMO) parts of the book. YMMV

 

I agree on Sorweel. And, thanks for seeing what I was trying to get across. It was simply foreshadowing.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

And the missing section I was speaking about, Bakker didn't say it was crucial, Bakker didn't speak about it. He allowed his proof readers to go ahead and divulge the missing sections. From what I gather Bakker didn't want it cut though. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

9 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Just to clarify, I don't think anyone actually thinks that Bakker dedicated hundreds of pages to describing the CRO. The complaints about 80, 150, or 200 pages of nothing but cannibal rape refers to the CRO being the most significant thing of significance to happen within those pages. And btw, 20 pages dedicated purely to describing the CRO is still pretty excessive.

I agree Kraken. I just don't think it ruins the book. If the cut scene was there, it would've made a difference. As it was explained, it was more interesting than anything that happened during that period of the book.

[Hello World]

Quote

They were in the original manuscript.  Those who read it, posted at length about it at the other site. Bakker said nothing about it at the Con, which I wasn't 

Well, no offense but that's not worth much, either. I'd take Bakker's word about his books over any of his beta readers, and that's saying a lot. Again, if there were any crucial scenes that gave the CRO any reason for existing why were they cut out when all the other stuff I mentioned is in there? Unless Bakker didn't think it was as crucial as his beta readers claim it is. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Hello World said:

Well, no offense but that's not worth much, either. I'd take Bakker's word about his books over any of his beta readers, and that's saying a lot. Again, if there were any crucial scenes that gave the CRO any reason for existing why were they cut out when all the other stuff I mentioned is in there? Unless Bakker didn't think it was as crucial as his beta readers claim it is. 

Its in the thread over there. His "true" Beta-readers felt that it shouldn't be in there, the ones with the final say. So, I can tell you all I know about it and your response is, "Well, no offense....". Why even bother? I'm trying to clarify to you guys, saying there was a missing piece that was very interesting and his other "beta-readers" AKA 4 longtime TSA members, couldn't understand why it was cut. Because it would have gave the whole thing more significance. If you don't wanna believe it, well there's nothing I can say or do to sway you. 

[Dora Vee]

8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

That was some what tounge in cheek, but please do chime in. I think I know your answer anyway.

FTR, I actually liked the gay cannibal orgy(that should be a band name) as I thought it was beautifully written, but I will admit that it did drag quite a bit. The purpose the whole thing served was to show how every one was desperate and acted accordingly. I was mostly interested in the Proyas scenes, but even then they involved the flashbacks with Achamian and scenes with Kayutas. The only aspect of Proyas's cannibalism that mattered was with Sibuwal. I think the rest of it could have been eliminated. 

As for his death, I'l put it very simply: I firmly believe that it had absolutely NO purpose except to be subversive for the sake of being subversive. So, really, I agree with you.  

At least Zsoronga's death, while unfortunate, served a purpose: It got Sorweel off his ass and he became the White Luck Warrior. 

Other people stopped readin TUC too, but for different reasons. One got sick of the gay cannibal holocaust(another band name) while Luke (reviewer) continued on but he skimmed over the battle scenes and every thing else as he only seemed to care about Proyas and Sorweel, mostly the latter. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

41 minutes ago, Dora Vee said:

As for his death, I'l put it very simply: I firmly believe that it had absolutely NO purpose except to be subversive for the sake of being subversive. So, really, I agree with you

It did have a purpose. It completely excused Kellhus of the Atrocities committed. This is why he left, so he wasn't to be blamed. Proyas was another of Kellhus's scapegoats.

[unJon]

4 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

I don't deny that Sorweel's death was moving any more than I would deny that the CRO was horrifying and depraved. These scenes certainly convey the emotions that they're meant to, and do so very well. But the initial question was as to what kind of purpose the CRO served in the greater narrative so as to justify such a large chunk of the book being dedicated to its portrayal. If MSJ's claim is that the whole point was to show what eating sranc meat does to someone, then yeah I think he kind of contradicted himself.

Now, if his argument is actually, as you say, that the CRO had importance to the plot in and of itself, and that Sorweel's inner monologue in TGO was meant to foreshadow this, then we come back around to the question of just what the intrinsic importance of the CRO actually is. But that's a different conversation.

FWiW, I kind of get the impression that the CRO was expanded to pad the length of the book and justify splitting TGO and TUC into the two full-length novels that we eventually got. That being said I wasn't part of this thread back when that was all being discussed, and maybe that idea has already been brought up and debunked. 

EDIT: Did you mean Proyas's death?

Oops. Yes, meant Proyas. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Let's Get Kraken, the whole of the Ordeal passing the Fields Appalling, does have significance to the plot. Wether people like it or not is of zero concern. As I said up thread, it showed the lengths Kellhus would go to place blame on another, his most trusted General. It showed effects of the meat. Was it too long and underwhelming, of course. Nevertheless, it served a purpose. Can you admit that? Can you conceed the merest fraction to MSJ? 

Look, you won't find a bigger fanboy of TSA, then me. But, even I know when things he does are done badly. But, it did serve a purpose. And, I wholeheartedly agree with you, it could've been done in a lot less pages. 

Is as if, instead of discussing these books, its me vs a whole host of you and you all trying to make my arguments invalid. Childish I say. I was accused of being a drunk (something I should have reported, but I'm not petty, even though it struck a nerve since I once had a problem and beat that problem). Why can't we discuss the books as equals and leave out personal animosity? Because, that's the constant feeling I get when posting here. And, I've been around here since 2010 and never had these feelings. Is it me? Or, others who have a grudge? Anyway, I want no grudge. I only want to to discuss the books. And, in a mature, grown up way. I will admit though, when threatened and feel backed in a corner, I will retaliate. I just hope we can move forward as fans of the books. 

[Hello World]

2 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

As for his death, I'l put it very simply: I firmly believe that it had absolutely NO purpose except to be subversive for the sake of being subversive. So, really, I agree with you. 

I feel like he could have cut out Kellhus raping Proyas and the rest of his arc upto his death and no one would have missed anything. Maybe that's a different story but with Bakker leaving other, more important, character arcs unresolved it makes me wonder why he spent so much on Proyas. I mentioned when I first read the book that the first couple hundred pages made it seem like Proyas was by far the main character in TUC. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 minute ago, Hello World said:

I feel like he could have cut out Kellhus raping Proyas and the rest of his arc upto his death and no one would have missed anything. Maybe that's a different story but with Bakker leaving other, more important, character arcs unresolved it makes me wonder why he spent so much on Proyas. I mentioned when I first read the book that the first couple hundred pages made it seem like Proyas was by far the main character in TUC. 

Wel, we know TNG will resume days, if not weeks after the rise of the No-God. Its why I pay zero attention to the unresolved threads. We will have the surviving characters in Akka, Mimara, Esme, Lil Moe, I believe Kayutas and Serwa, Meppa, The Boy and many I'm probably missing. I think we'll get answers to things not answered in TUC. That's why I don't understand why speculation need stop.

[Larry of the Lawn]

41 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Wel, we know TNG will resume days, if not weeks after the rise of the No-God. Its why I pay zero attention to the unresolved threads. We will have the surviving characters in Akka, Mimara, Esme, Lil Moe, I believe Kayutas and Serwa, Meppa, The Boy and many I'm probably missing. I think we'll get answers to things not answered in TUC. That's why I don't understand why speculation need stop.

It's not that it HAS to stop, it's just stopped / slowed down for a variety of reasons already mentioned.  The way TUC ended wasn't some revelatory, rule changing move on the Benjukka plate.  It was some guy tossing the whole thing in the fire yelling 'fooled ya''.  

Personally, I'm not that interested in speculation because we've seen that a lot of the details in the series aren't as profound or meaningful as they appear, because Bakker's shown a willingness to use deus ex machina style solutions, and honestly, because I just don't care that much anymore.  I have little interest marinating on crackpot theories when the entire ground they're founded on has been shown to be the bottomless pit that swallowed up Titirga.  

 

[Hello World]

1 hour ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Wel, we know TNG will resume days, if not weeks after the rise of the No-God. Its why I pay zero attention to the unresolved threads. We will have the surviving characters in Akka, Mimara, Esme, Lil Moe, I believe Kayutas and Serwa, Meppa, The Boy and many I'm probably missing. I think we'll get answers to things not answered in TUC. That's why I don't understand why speculation need stop.

Didn't Bakker go on about how real life doesn't have closure when asked about those things? And then said that people should come up with their own meaning for those storylines? Didn't he also say that this was supposed to be the end of the series at first? And that he doesn't have a grand plan for the next series besides writing about crabhand? (right, didn't he also say way back that TUC ends all the character arcs introduced in PoN?) 

I know a lot of things can happen in the next series but my point is that we don't have much to speculate on besides making wild guesses. Anything can happen in the next series, and there is a chance that none of the characters you mentioned will come back besides Moenghus Jr and Crabhand. 

I thnk this is the general feel currently, go ahead and speculate though...

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

Didn't Bakker go on about how real life doesn't have closure when asked about those things? And then said that people should come up with their own meaning for those storylines? Didn't he also say that this was supposed to be the end of the series at first? And that he doesn't have a grand plan for the next series besides writing about crabhand? (right, didn't he also say way back that TUC ends all the character arcs introduced in PoN?) 

I know a lot of things can happen in the next series but my point is that we don't have much to speculate on besides making wild guesses. Anything can happen in the next series, and there is a chance that none of the characters you mentioned will come back besides Moenghus Jr and Crabhand. 

I thnk this is the general feel currently, go ahead and speculate though...

No, he said the main part of the series will pick up a couple weeks after TUC. With those characters alive being part of the story. How can't Akka, Esme and Mimara not be part of it? 

I have little to speculate on myself, I admit, but there's room for speculation. Especially concerning Mimara. 

You know what @Hello World, I will. I'm not a fair weather fan. I'm not one who uses some contrite statements from the AMA to ruin these great books for me. Ill just do my speculation at another place were people are interested. A shame, this was a bastion of Bakker for so long. Only to be reduced to petty arguments, name calling and such. A shame really. Hope there wasn't any spelling errors wouldn't want to be a accused of being drunk again. Which I should be reported you for. Why, I could say the same of many of you with your half baked theories. At least, I read between the lines, and was proven correct in mine. Does it hurt your feelings? Is that why you resort to calling me a drunk? Yea, these threads are but a shadow of themselves. And, I will laugh to the heavens when Bakker proves everyone of you wrong in TNG. Because, in my heart, I know he will. Best fantasy writer of our age, hands down. You all have just given up and the story is incomplete. Oh, as to the drunk statement by you, I never received an apology. Karma, it will hunt you down.

[Hello World]

Sigh... I actually did apologize. I assumed that you saw it. 

Quote

With those characters alive being part of the story. How can't Akka, Esme and Mimara not be part of it? 

I don't know, ask Bakker, he's the one who said TUC ends all the arcs started in PoN. He's also the one who made the point about how we shouldn't expect those character arcs to have closure because real life doesn't have it either. 

It's funny that you mention Mimara since there were so many elaborate theories about what she might do in TUC, including by you, and she did almost nothing. 

And please drop the you're all salty that you were wrong and I was right, it's childish and not what anybody is talking about. But if you insist there were a lot things you were wrong about and others, including me, were right on, like the Axlotl tanks for example. I actually don't even know what big prediction of yours you are talking about, but it's definitely besides the point. What I do remember is you predicting that Mimara would play the major role in TUC...