larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

394 posts in this topic

[mod] If you can't keep commentary from becoming personal, you're not going to be posting here at all. Capisce? Thank you. [/mod]

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3 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And that he loved Esme..., and not everyone thought Kellhus was trying to save the world. 

Do we even know for sure that he was trying to? From the text I mean, not the AMA? Stopping the NG from being born and handing the world over to Ajokli to become his personal hell isn't exactly saving it. 

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Hmm I don't remember it ever being stated explicity either in the text or in any interview that he loved Esmi, is there some links for that?

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20 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hmm I don't remember it ever being stated explicity either in the text or in any interview that he loved Esmi, is there some links for that?

In the text there's him going back to retrieve her from the empire, I think he calls her his darkness, but you could also make the case that the darkness is actually Ajokli and he leaves to separate himself from Proyas going super cannibal.

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13 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

In the text there's him going back to retrieve her from the empire, I think he calls her his darkness, but you could also make the case that the darkness is actually Ajokli and he leaves to separate himself from Proyas going super cannibal.

Almost positive(although all this back and forth here has me second guessing myself) Bakker said Kel's darkness was Ajolki, but theres been so many Q&A's it all gets muddled.

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The MEAT has affected this board, resist! Or the mods will need to cleanse us all! 

 

I wonder how the books could be improved. I for one would have loved more maithanet, maybe give him a role in TNG. Didn't really understand what Esmis whole plot was about honestly... way worse that the cannibal holocaust. 

 

As a side note, could the WLW function in the Ark ? Could yatwer "give a command" to follow kellhus and kill him ? (To sorweel) Since ajokli manifested there, curious how he percieved the ark...

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43 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Almost positive(although all this back and forth here has me second guessing myself) Bakker said Kel's darkness was Ajolki, but theres been so many Q&A's it all gets muddled.

According to the reddit AMA, Bakker claimed that she was basically an anomaly of "some consequence" and nothing more. 

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43 minutes ago, Dora Vee said:

According to the reddit AMA, Bakker claimed that she was basically an anomaly of "some consequence" and nothing more. 

OK, that's what I thought. I'm confused as to where this Kel loving Esmi thing comes from then. Anyone want to elaborate?

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1 hour ago, larrytheimp said:

In the text there's him going back to retrieve her from the empire, I think he calls her his darkness, but you could also make the case that the darkness is actually Ajokli and he leaves to separate himself from Proyas going super cannibal.

So Ajokli is what made him bring Esmenet with him? Or did Kellhus just confuse Ajokli taking over him for  Esmenet, which in itself needs some explanation as to why it would happen. 

10 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

OK, that's what I thought. I'm confused as to where this Kel loving Esmi thing comes from then. Anyone want to elaborate?

Didn't he say something like that in the beginning when he first takes Esmenet and Kelmomas out of Momemn? 

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4 minutes ago, Hello World said:

So Ajokli is what made him bring Esmenet with him? Or did Kellhus just confuse Ajokli taking over him for  Esmenet, which in itself needs some explanation as to why it would happen. 

Didn't he say something like that in the beginning when he first takes Esmenet and Kelmomas out of Momemn? 

Well sure, but he says a lot of things that re, you know, lies.

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Yea, Kellhus will say pretty much anything to have the desired effect. 

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6 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And that he loved Esme..., and not everyone thought Kellhus was trying to save the world.

Granted, some of these beefs go back a lot farther than I've been reading these threads. But if you're talking about those immediately preceeding TUC, I seem to recall that you weren't just getting shit for the claim that Kellhus "loved" Esme. Rather, the argument seemed to be with your classification of the story (specifically the relationship between Kellhus and Esmenet) as having strong romantic overtones.

So yeah, he may have loved Esmenet, but it's also pretty clear that she despised him. If that was a romance than Requiem for a Dream was a rags to riches story.

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2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hmm I don't remember it ever being stated explicity either in the text or in any interview that he loved Esmi, is there some links for that?

Did the text ever offer an alternate explanation as to why he wouldn't kill Kelmomas?

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4 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Did the text ever offer an alternate explanation as to why he wouldn't kill Kelmomas?

Hmm, I don't remember it offering ANY explanation. It actually was kind of skipped over I thought. A lot of people asked the same question if I remember right. My impression was that he was just too busy with other shit at the time.

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17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well sure, but he says a lot of things that re, you know, lies.

It could have been a lie, I'm just saying that's where it came from. There is a bit in the first trilogy about Kellhus supposedly choosing Esmenet for her intellect which was just as confusing for some. 

10 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Granted, some of these beefs go back a lot farther than I've been reading these threads. But if you're talking about those immediately preceeding TUC, I seem to recall that you weren't just getting shit for the claim that Kellhus "loved" Esme. Rather, the argument seemed to be with your classification of the story (specifically the relationship between Kellhus and Esmenet) as having strong romantic overtones.

So yeah, he may have loved Esmenet, but it's also pretty clear that she despised him. If that was a romance than Requiem for a Dream was a rags to riches story.

I only remember this being brought up in these threads after an excerpt from TUC was released and there was a lot of confusion as to why Kellhus would love Esmenet. 

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18 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

So yeah, he may have loved Esmenet, but it's also pretty clear that she despised him.

Can't say I blame her. 

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8 minutes ago, Hello World said:

It could have been a lie, I'm just saying that's where it came from. There is a bit in the first trilogy about Kellhus supposedly choosing Esmenet for her intellect which was just as confusing for some. 

I only remember this being brought up in these threads after an excerpt from TUC was released and there was a lot of confusion as to why Kellhus would love Esmenet. 

I recall something of that nature being brought up back when there were still TGO spoiler threads. It might have been more about Achamian, but roughly the same talking points IIRC. I was reading TJE and posted about the line where Achamian refers to himself and Mimara as both being "victims of Esmenet."

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But she CHEATED ON HIM! Surely that's worse than years of enslavment and rape and such! 

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22 hours ago, Hello World said:

It could have been a lie, I'm just saying that's where it came from. There is a bit in the first trilogy about Kellhus supposedly choosing Esmenet for her intellect which was just as confusing for some. 

I only remember this being brought up in these threads after an excerpt from TUC was released and there was a lot of confusion as to why Kellhus would love Esmenet. 

No it came up after TGO with the passage about Kelhus’s heart crashing into ruin. That was the TGO evidence of Kel loving Esmi. There’s more in TUC. You can debate whether it’s just the Ajokli effect, but at the end of the day it still results in Kel believing he loves Esmi. So it seems odd to argue that Kel thinks he loves Esmi and acts as if he loves Esmi, but really he doesn’t love Esmi because Ajokli effect. *shrug*

Likewise, Kel wanting to save the world to me wasn’t apparent from the text but is what Bakker said in the AMA.

Edited by Stubby
Personal comments removed.

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My point wasn't that Kellhus can't feel something for Esmenet or even actually love her, it was that he goes back for her because he needs to be away from the ordeal for his Proyas / cannibal Gambit to work.  

Kellhus also references the growing darkness and speculates about whether or not Esmenet is part of that but it seems odd that all of a sudden she'd be a growing weakness when it's pretty clear it was Ajokli.  

 

 

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