larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

394 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, Callan S. said:

This is your brain.

This is your brain on Ajokli.

Not even once!

Another reason why Bakker should have kept Kellhus's PoV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Did you reread it? I think there is a case to be made. I've made it before. He tries to will her back to life. There is plenty there that the death effected him. And, he must've had feelings for it to effect him.

There's a difference between "a case to be made" and "clear as day." I was responding to the bold part. I don't think anything from that scene is so clear as to be obvious.

Side question I'll throw out to anyone. Is there any kind of consensus as to what happened with the heart at the end? Do we ever find out what the deal was there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lutarez said:

Twisted love is still love

If anything I'd say it's more like the love one has for a favorite pet, if anything. But as @Dora Vee says upthread I think shock is a great term for what I actually think happened. Honestly we're never going to agree on this, it seemed like a useless discussion at this point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think that on the circumfix Kellhus was closer to another person's soul than he has been at any point in his life, and that was the only time that he remotely had gone past his sense of self and become one with the Soul of the world, like Koringhus did. I don't think that's love; I think it's being aware that all are one, and she was him and he was her and they are all connected.

Kellhus has been trained since birth to believe that he is a singular piece, separate entirely from everything else, and that the optimal thing in the universe is to be the most singular thing you can be, even defeating the things that you don't understand that push you away from that. As far as I can tell from Earwan metaphysics, this is almost precisely the most wrong thing ever. When he was on the circumfix, all of that training and thinking and control went away, and he went to atavistic values - and there, he found connection. He might have considered that love in what passes for his soul, but he doesn't understand love any more than he understands the concept of metaphysics in the world. He has no word for the notion that he is not just himself, and so perhaps considers it love - but it's not that.

Later, he encounters something that makes him feel...he doesn't know what. Longing for things? Desire to save? Desire to make bad choices? And he again associates it with love, not knowing that once again it's not that, it's something else - in this case, it's Ajokli, manipulating his weak spirit and frail soul for his gain. His hubris is believing that he is beyond this, and that any feelings like this must be his own - because all feelings must be his own, and he cannot comprehend feeling what another is feeling as they do. 

But that's just what Ajokli does. Because Ajokli is part of the system, part of all of us, and their slipping into another person is just it being the god of deceit that lies in all of us.

In both cases of 'love' by Kellhus, we have Kellhus experiencing feelings that are beyond his personal soul, and he has no other word for it. But that doesn't mean it is love, nor does it mean that it is accurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so?

Edited by Ser Drizztos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Ser Drizztos said:

I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so?

Nah, it doesn't suck. For some people it's by far the bestest thing ever. And it has good beats, too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

Later, he encounters something that makes him feel...he doesn't know what. Longing for things? Desire to save? Desire to make bad choices? And he again associates it with love, not knowing that once again it's not that, it's something else - in this case, it's Ajokli, manipulating his weak spirit and frail soul for his gain. His hubris is believing that he is beyond this, and that any feelings like this must be his own - because all feelings must be his own, and he cannot comprehend feeling what another is feeling as they do. 

But that's just what Ajokli does. Because Ajokli is part of the system, part of all of us, and their slipping into another person is just it being the god of deceit that lies in all of us.

 

I think Bakker missed out by not making this clearer to most readers. If Kellhus was merely deluded and not actively communicating any plans with Ajokli what was the point of hiding his PoV? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Hello World said:

I think Bakker missed out by not making this clearer to most readers. If Kellhus was merely deluded and not actively communicating any plans with Ajokli what was the point of hiding his PoV? 

I think this is more Bakker being too clever for his own good. Hiding Kellhus makes us think that his plan has to be something monumental and must be the major focus of the story entirely. It allows for the Ajokli reveal at the end to hit hard, hit us like it hit the DunSult. It allows us to supposedly be 'surprised' when the Kellhus hologram descends and the No-God arises. 

But it also completely undercuts the idea that both Kellhus and the Dunsult's souls are weak and prone to corruption and possession, especially as we have basically no hint of this prior to the story, no reason to think this. And again we're left at the point where textually what Bakker said happened isn't particularly well-supported, so...do we believe Bakker? Or do we believe the text?

Is the goal to make your own meaning here, draw your own conclusion on not just a theme but a massive plot point? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ser Drizztos said:

I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so?

Haha oh dear. that is one loaded question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ser Drizztos said:

I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so?

It really depends on who you ask. You either liked it or you didn't. It also depends on how many characters you were attached to.

Edited by Dora Vee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/2/2017 at 0:47 PM, Hello World said:

I feel like he could have cut out Kellhus raping Proyas and the rest of his arc upto his death and no one would have missed anything. Maybe that's a different story but with Bakker leaving other, more important, character arcs unresolved it makes me wonder why he spent so much on Proyas. I mentioned when I first read the book that the first couple hundred pages made it seem like Proyas was by far the main character in TUC. 

(a little late here, I know). Anyway, I would have missed something, but that's just me. As for why some much time was spent on Proyas, I think it was to basically set people up into believing that certain things would happen only to have them dashed and then to draw it out for him be killed in a way that no one would have seen coming. Like I said before, subversive for the sake of being subversive. Proyas could have been scapegoated without having to die. If Kellhus really needed to him to bear witness, then he would have done whatever it took to keep him alive even if it meant getting the Malowabi treatment.

How hard was it to hand Proyas over to Achamian? It's not like anyone had to know and really, to mutiny over something like that when Proyas was already punished would have been galatically stupid. 

I am STILL angry over this. Brrr...I have to say that Bakker is quite effective. 

As for the other character arcs, well, if they're still alive, then they'll be dealt with in the No God. The only problem is that, at this point, Achamian is the only one who matters now. 

Edited by Dora Vee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ser Drizztos said:

I have heard the grave news that TUC pretty much sucks. Is it true? How could the messiah fail us so?

The prose was way better than in TGO, and there are some really great moments.  There are also a few moments where it's like 'Bakker wtf are doing?'.

 

Ihave a lot of issues (a real lot!) with it but enjoyed it and will read it again.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Dora Vee said:

How hard was it to have Proyas over to Achamian? It's not like anyone had to know and really, to mutiny over something like that when Proyas was already punished would have galatically stupid. 

I am STILL angry over this. Brrr...I have to say that Bakker is quite effective. 

That's interesting because I was never emotionally invested in Proyas or his quest to please Kellhus, but I could say the same about almost all other characters in TAE. The only exceptions are maybe Sorweel and Serwa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was not happy with what happened to Sorweel, but at least he's with Yatwer. As for Serwa, I'm pretty sure she's still alive and will be alright. You have that going for you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

Proyas could have been scapegoated without having to die.

[spoiler warning for those asking about TUC]

Kellhus didn't kill him? He was literally hung out in a way where he'd just hang but live - sure, it sucked and was slowly killing him, but it wouldn't kill him. Then Cnaiur turned up, apparently unexpectedly - that was Proyas's end.

Kellhus has done this before - he went to kill Cnaiur once...then decided to use him instead. He goes to kill Proyas...but then basically just sit him on the shelf in case he can use him (also there's some sub routine of optimal time spent alive so as to avoid damnation torture)

Quote

How hard was it to hand Proyas over to Achamian?

It would not be the shortest path.

Edited by Callan S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Dora Vee said:

I was not happy with what happened to Sorweel, but at least he's with Yatwer. As for Serwa, I'm pretty sure she's still alive and will be alright. You have that going for you. 

I think that was confirmed. I'm not sure though so don't take me to court over it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It had great set-pieces and some interesting revelations, but overall it didn't leave me with much desire to read the next one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think that was confirmed. I'm not sure though so don't take me to court over it.

IIRC Bakker said in the AMA that he was surprised that people assume Serwa is dead, but also went out of his way to say that this doesn't necessarily mean she's alive.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now