larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

353 posts in this topic

13 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

The critiques of it always seem to treat it as if the dragons words have no grounding in the actual setting, as if it was all very meta. Even if its words are grounded in the setting, no one has to like the dragon. But I think the lack of grounding is a bad way of looking at it - there's fair reason to think what it said is drawn from the setting. Whether anyone likes the dragon even when they see it's words are grounded, that's up to them. To me it seems a bad critique to treat the words as meta rather than derived from the setting.

Because up until then the Consult gave off such a slut-shaming vibe?

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Whoever up therad said it sounds like a little kid who just learned a new swear word is spot on. He might as well have been saying "EVERYTHING SMELLS LIKE POOPIES", and it would have had the same effect(laughter).

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So I had a dream last night where I was being chased by killbots.  And some dude in my dream was like "Hey, the killbots can't see people, you can actually stand next to them and be safe."  And i was like wat.  When I woke up, I was like, that's some Bakker-y shit.  An AI that's programmed not to harm humans cripples itself in a manner where it literally can't see humans - can't distinguish them from the background or whatever - and can't even infer their existence or presence.  

So the Killbots just go around burning crops and demolishing buildings because they're no longer necessary and humanity just dies as an after-effect.

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8 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

Because up until then the Consult gave off such a slut-shaming vibe?

It was slut shaming? It was trying to out talk something it just couldn't out talk. It resorted to witless crass statements in the end.

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4 hours ago, Ajûrbkli said:

So the Killbots just go around burning crops and demolishing buildings because they're no longer necessary and humanity just dies as an after-effect.

Yeah, that seems to fit the genre pretty well!

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8 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

It was slut shaming? It was trying to out talk something it just couldn't out talk. It resorted to witless crass statements in the end.

You....you think it was trying to OUT TALK? Did you read a different book?

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7 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

You....you think it was trying to OUT TALK? Did you read a different book?

Perhaps I did. Mine has a sentence saying Serwa was talking to it in order to distract it and keep it's mind off her assault. She was giving it shit and it tried to give her shit back - becoming distracted in doing so.

I mean, sometimes people resort to theatrics as a way of talking over someone.

 

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12 hours ago, Callan S. said:

 

I mean, sometimes people resort to theatrics as a way of talking over someone.

 

On that we agree; I find myself doing this almost constantly on this forum.

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On 12/7/2017 at 1:48 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

Because up until then the Consult gave off such a slut-shaming vibe?

Well yea...

What would you call the scene in TDTCB when Aurang appeared to Esme as a glamour? Slit shaming at it finest.

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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On 12/7/2017 at 10:49 PM, Darth Richard II said:

You....you think it was trying to OUT TALK? Did you read a different book?

Why is it so hard for some people around here to not accept that other readers have different views and take different things away from each and every book? Is your interpretation more correct than @Callan S.

He's offered way more in the way of interpretation than you and others have.

I might not agree with him entirely on it All, but doesn't mean that his interpretation is wrong.

ETA: His....that is HIS interpretation. Correct. 

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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41 minutes ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Why is it so hard for some people around here to not accept that other readers have different views and take different things away from each and every book? Is your interpretation more correct than @Callan S.

He's offered way more in the way of interpretation than you and others have.

I might not agree with him entirely on it All, but doesn't mean that his interpretation is wrong.

ETA: His....that is HIS interpretation. Correct. 

I dunno, why is it so hard for you?

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I did a little bit of rereading last night and really only did the whole scene in the golden room.  I still love the Dunsult reveal and think that scene was pretty great overall and had the potential to be a great penultimate scene.  I think even the Kellhus/Ajokli "Becuase this place, more than any other, is my place" (paraphrase) is a great line.  It's just that then how Kellhus goes down but then especially the unsatisfying and ambiguous the explanations of what the fuck actually happened turned out to be...killed the momentum.  For me at least though this was a good little reminder of why I've loved this series in the past and what could have been.

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Honestly I loved that scene. It was for me an example of a fantastic twist. I didn't see it coming at all, and yet it made all the sense in the world looking back. It elevated everything. And it was followed up by another huge twist - Ajokli possessing Kellhus - which again, never saw coming, and while it might not have been foreshadowed as well as it should have been, honestly still made sense with the information we had and just clicked everything into place.

How could Kellhus overcome five Dunyain sorcerers with Consult knowledge? How could he perform sorcery without a mark? What was his plan to avoid damnation? He's made a pact with Ajokli. It even fit in with the true Dunyain model - the desire to manipulate everything, and so master circumstances - what could yield greater power than Hell itself? And it gave a horrifying, chilling answer to the series long question - is Kellhus a good guy? I think tons of us were suspecting, even knowing he did terrible things, that he had some grand plan to both defeat the Consult and end damnation at the same time for the good of humanity. And this reveal goes NOPE - he's got a plan, and it makes him a greater monster than even the Consult. 

But then Bakker had to do that AMA and honestly I'm left stunned. Like, how is it genuinely possible for a text to make complete and utter sense and answer every question (virtually) when read on it's own, but make zero sense when given author intent? I honestly don't get it and it's why I assume Bakker has to be lying or being misinterpreted. I honestly just don't see how it call all read so clearly a certain way, with lines and evidence supporting it, only to discover that all that evidence was happenstance and the author meant everything a different way that goes counter to how the scene plays out? Like literally the lines about striking treaties with the pit and seeing Hell as a well of bottomless power to conquer...they make no sense as said by anyone other than Kellhus. 

Honestly the only interpretation (other than Bakker lying) that makes sense to me is that he was misread when he said Kellhus didn't intend the Ajokli thing to go down. That he DID make a knowing pact, that he intended to use that power to overcome the Consult, and either be Ajokli's bitch or had some other method of tricking him. But Ajokli ended up being too powerful and took over completely, which left Kellhus blind and wasn't what he intended. The only read that makes sense for me. 

Edited by IllusiveMan

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