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larrytheimp

Bakker LII: Ol' Golgotterath Blues

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22 hours ago, Callan S. said:

Really? I don't remember that?

I didn't remember that either.

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@Callan S. @Triskele

Quote

The Judging Eye comes to her knees amid the char and wet skin--looks up... Sees a slender Ciphrang hanging as high as the future, showering the earth with death--a witch, wet with the fires of damnation, burns heaped upon her burns.

At the top of page 360 in the U.S. Hardcover.

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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On 11/1/2017 at 0:06 AM, Lutarez said:

Will we ever get an adaptation that not only does the series justice but it polishes the rough edges ? 

 

If yes, how would you do it ? What would you cut/add ?

Everyone here would love to see an adaptation of it, but I doubt it can happen. It is a very harsh world when even the most unimaginable things happen, and when the No God will most likely win. A TV show like that is doomed too fail, IMO.

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15 hours ago, Let's Get Kraken said:

@Callan S. @Triskele

At the top of page 360 in the U.S. Hardcover.

What's interesting to me in that is how the only word italicized is 'witch', which implies to me that this is the reason she's a ciphrang - because she is a woman practicing sorcery, which is really really bad in the grand good place / bad place scoring. 

(an aside: The Good Place has a more nuanced and more reasonable system for afterlife than Bakker's books, which makes it really good. Y'all should watch it.)

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I think becoming a Ciphrang relates to the size of the soul.  Mimara comments that Cnaiur literally has a larger soul than regular people, he's a shard not a sliver.  The Consult members, despite their tenacity, either apparently possess small souls and so can't get prevent getting eaten - or becoming a Ciphrang is still unpleasant enough to want to avoid damnation.

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Doubt an adaptation would be successful, GoT is successful because it has characters that people are deeply emotional about (the Starks/Lannisters) and the political intrigue. Bakker doesn't have either (unless you count Cnaiur as a character to identify with).

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3 minutes ago, Hello World said:

Doubt an adaptation would be successful, GoT is successful because it has characters that people are deeply emotional about (the Starks/Lannisters) and the political intrigue. Bakker doesn't have either (unless you count Cnaiur as a character to identify with).

One of the reasons adaptations can work is the same reason film properties crave them - they have a built-in audience of fans that will likely see it. GOT had that, and early on they were a big reason that the show continued. The books have never hit the numbers that the show does but it's still a couple million around the world. Same with WoT, Last Kingdom, Shannarra, etc.

For Bakker they have to basically hope that the story itself is compelling enough to pick up. And honestly, if Amazon is picking up LotR fanfic, they're gonna give Bakker a hard pass. 

The good news is that the entertainment industry is in the throes of a massive backlash against sexism, so I'm sure the very anti-sexist Earwa stories will do well somewhere else

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7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

What's interesting to me in that is how the only word italicized is 'witch', which implies to me that this is the reason she's a ciphrang - because she is a woman practicing sorcery, which is really really bad in the grand good place / bad place scoring. 

(an aside: The Good Place has a more nuanced and more reasonable system for afterlife than Bakker's books, which makes it really good. Y'all should watch it.)

Get out of my brain, dvd of season 1 just arrived in the mail like...10 mins ago.

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7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Get out of my brain, dvd of season 1 just arrived in the mail like...10 mins ago.

And who do you think sent it to you?

 

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15 hours ago, Hello World said:

Doubt an adaptation would be successful, GoT is successful because it has characters that people are deeply emotional about (the Starks/Lannisters) and the political intrigue. Bakker doesn't have either (unless you count Cnaiur as a character to identify with).

PoN has a fair amount of political intrigue, particularly with Conphas and Xerius.  That was one of the biggest things I missed in Aspect Emperor.  And even what little politics there was ended up being mostly irrelevant (for example, the Maithanet/Esmenet power struggle, the Fanayal uprising).

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Well, I find it laughable when people said that adaption on TSA couldn't be done right was a budget, it have to be animation. When Amazon just shelled out 250 mil for the rights to LotR. They could have paid a penance of that for the rights to TSA and done the series justice with a huge budget. Even if its not Bakker, give me something new. I don't care about elves in the Simillarion. Boring shit if you ask me.

Edited by Michael Seswatha Jordan

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LotR is slightly more popular.

Edit: I'm having trouble even making sense of this. Yes Amazon paid a lot for LotR? BEcause its fucking Lord of the Rings.

Why would they spend that much on something that a mere fraction of people have heard of, budget wise?

Edited by Darth Richard II

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The idea is spend far less on an up and comer and use the saved money for a bigger production budget for it. Instead of buying an old idea for a large amount then spend even more for production. Whether it'd sell is speculation - harry potter and game of thrones were at one point just speculative efforts.

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7 hours ago, Maithanet said:

PoN has a fair amount of political intrigue, particularly with Conphas and Xerius.  That was one of the biggest things I missed in Aspect Emperor.  And even what little politics there was ended up being mostly irrelevant (for example, the Maithanet/Esmenet power struggle, the Fanayal uprising).

It really doesn't have that much intrigue past part of the first book. Once you get into TWP, there's basically nothing at all; it all gets subsumed by Kellhus and his amazing ability to convince anyone to do anything. I suspect there's actually a bit more of it in TAE than PON if you take it by word count. 

The problem is that the political intrigue in PON is largely a sideshow with characters that are deeply horrible, and the result is nothing anyone particularly cares about. It maps well to the first crusade, so it's got that going for it, but beyond that it's not really that relevant to the overall story. Compare this to GOT, where the political intrigue directly causes a massive war, and it's really not a fair comparison. 

But that wasn't the point; the point was not about the political intrigue, it was about the actual characters. Especially when doing an adaptation characters really matter. And there just aren't that many really compelling ones in PON. There really aren't that many characters, period, in PON. 

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2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

The idea is spend far less on an up and comer and use the saved money for a bigger production budget for it. Instead of buying an old idea for a large amount then spend even more for production. Whether it'd sell is speculation - harry potter and game of thrones were at one point just speculative efforts.

Yes but by that logic they're not going to throw much at the budget since it's not as popular.

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Harry Potter (as a movie) wasn't remotely ever 'just speculative efforts'. Game of Thrones was, but it still was a much safer bet given how well it had sold and how many fans it actually had and how much of a community (such as Ran) it had built up. Plus GRRM working on hollywood work and understanding scripting helped as well. 

I'll put it another way: there are a LOT more spec fic properties out there that have significantly more fans, more buzz, are easier properties to film and are less problematic in the cultural values of today. 

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LotR is a safe bet. They re going to get back what they paid in doubles, as sure as the sun is going to set tomorrow. That is not the case with Bakker ( Or any other fantasy author ) .

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Honestly, I don't think an adaptation necessarily needs political intrigue and likable characters. Trying to do the Game of Thrones thing would be a mistake, IMO. Game of Thrones already did the Game of Thrones thing, and audiences are going to be sick of it by the time any hypothetical adaptation of TPoN would be ready to air. Remember how many fantasy movies tried to imitate Lord of the Rings in the early and mid-2000s? Because I don't. They were all as forgettable as they were interchangeable, but I know that none of them recaptured any of what made Jackson's trilogy what it was.

If you're going to adapt TPoN, then let it be TPoN. Change what needs to be changed to make it work, but don't try to make it into something that it's not. I think introspective nihilism would actually play pretty well with audiences these days anyway. It doesn't have to be Game of Thrones, and if it tries to be, it will suffer for the comparison.

EDIT:

Really? We're bringing up Lord of the Rings as having a comparable financial risk with The Second Apocalypse now?

Edited by Let's Get Kraken

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