Sansa/Arya and Lyanna Parallels

[LiveFirstDieLater]

6 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Well. It was sort of the point that Sansa is sometimes accused of a lack of Starkiness, which is not an accusation I've ever seen aimed at Dany.

But I have to thank you for the quotes. That one about arms to keep her warm was very good, excellent in fact, and when I read about Daario bringing her flowers every day, I laughed out loud (see earlier post).

Cheers! Glad you enjoyed...

I feel like people are always trying to tell me Dany isn't a Stark... when in fact I think she fits Lyanna's themes better than either Arya or Sansa. 

It's one of those things which once I saw I couldn't unsee...

R+L=J&D

[Springwatch]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lol, why? Males can be flowers, too!

That's definitely a new thing to me, and it's good to know.

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

There are a lot of parallels between AGOT Jon VII and VIII and the HOTU chapter and I think they're companion chapters. Jon's battle with blue/black Othor strongly mirrors Dany's fight with the blue/black Undying. Both are violated. Both are saved by their animal(s) and fire.

Very interesting! Will definitely have a look. Feels like time to have another go at the HOTU anyway.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That's definitely a new thing to me, and it's good to know.

Very interesting! Will definitely have a look. Feels like time to have another go at the HOTU anyway.

I think Bloodravens lair is the parallel you are looking for with the House of the Undying...

After all, those Ebony blue leaf trees that make the Shade of the Evening appear to be Weirwoods of a different color.

[Springwatch]

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cheers! Glad you enjoyed...

I feel like people are always trying to tell me Dany isn't a Stark... when in fact I think she fits Lyanna's themes better than either Arya or Sansa. 

It's one of those things which once I saw I couldn't unsee...

R+L=J&D

I could think about this for days. And probably will, because it puts me in the zone of my personal Grand Unified Theory of Everything (all walls are the Wall, all nights are the Long Night, all maidens are the Maiden etc). It's a black hole of a theory that just swallows time and never gives back anything, but I can't resist it all the same. See you later...

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

That's definitely a new thing to me, and it's good to know.

With regards to the blue rose it isn't the gender but the role that is the subject. A flower is for plucking, and generally it is the male that pursues/steals/wins the female, thus they're the one plucking the female, and the female is the flower plucked.

Jon is the blue flower, he is the one for being plucked. And we see it in the series, Ygritte had to aggressively pursue him before she won him. Alys Karstark scratches the surface to see what might be behind, Mel straight puts it out there and Val's playing the wildling game of waiting to be stolen. All to no avail. He's a fair flower, he must be pursued and he must be won, or stolen.

Ygritte tells it straight.

Quote

"Then I'd push him in a stream or throw a bucket o' water on him. Anyhow, men shouldn't smell sweet like flowers."

"What's wrong with flowers?" 

"Nothing, for a bee. For bed I want one o' these." Ygritte made to grab the front of his breeches.

Enter Dany, the one who gets the vision. He is the blue flower and it is for her to pluck. She is to play the role of the pursuer. As Rhaegar 'stole' Lyanna, and Dany sees herself as Rhaegar, the last dragon. As Bael the Bard plucked the blue flower.

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"Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider."

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean." 

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said.

As Dancy the whore tries aggressively to win her wager.

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As the black-skinned girl led him up the stairs, she said, "Poor Dancy. She has a fortnight to get my lord to choose her. Elsewise she loses her black pearls to Marei."

. . . 

"Stop it." The way she was acting reminded him of Dancy, who had tried so hard to win her wager.

. . .

A few of the other patrons were giving him sideways looks. The last time he ventured out, a man had spit on him . . . well, had tried to. Instead he'd spit on Bronn, and in future would do his spitting without teeth.

"Is milord feeling unloved?" Dancy slid into his lap and nibbled at his ear. "I have a cure for that." 

Smiling, Tyrion shook his head. "You are too beautiful for words, sweetling, but I've grown fond of Alayaya's remedy."

"You've never tried mine. Milord never chooses anyone but 'Yaya. She's good but I'm better, don't you want to see?"

"Next time, perhaps." Tyrion had no doubt that Dancy would be a lively handful. She was pug-nosed and bouncy, with freckles and a mane of thick red hair that tumbled down past her waist. But he had Shae waiting for him at the manse. 

Giggling, she put her hand between his thighs and squeezed him through his breeches. "I don't think he wants to wait till next time," she announced. "He wants to come out and count all my freckles, I think."

It is a role reversal at the wall, Jon the precious flower, the shy moon maid, being sought by Dany the raider and conqueror.

A role reversal like Danny Flint.

Quote

It is not their fathers who concern me. "Did Mance ever sing of Brave Danny Flint?" 

"Not as I recall. Who was he?"

"A girl who dressed up like a boy to take the black. Her song is sad and pretty. What happened to her wasn't."

Danny for Dany, Flint for fire, Targaryen.

The story is in how does one pluck a flower that doesn't want plucking? Or more has already been plucked and now belongs to the dead?

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

With regards to the blue rose it isn't the gender but the role that is the subject. A flower is for plucking, and generally it is the male that pursues/steals/wins the female, thus they're the one plucking the female, and the female is the flower plucked.

Jon is the blue flower, he is the one for being plucked. And we see it in the series, Ygritte had to aggressively pursue him before she won him. Alys Karstark scratches the surface to see what might be behind, Mel straight puts it out there and Val's playing the wildling game of waiting to be stolen. All to no avail. He's a fair flower, he must be pursued and he must be won, or stolen.

Ygritte tells it straight.

Enter Dany, the one who gets the vision. He is the blue flower and it is for her to pluck. She is to play the role of the pursuer. As Rhaegar 'stole' Lyanna, and Dany sees herself as Rhaegar, the last dragon. As Bael the Bard plucked the blue flower.

As Dancy the whore tries aggressively to win her wager.

It is a role reversal at the wall, Jon the precious flower, the shy moon maid, being sought by Dany the raider and conqueror.

A role reversal like Danny Flint.

Danny for Dany, Flint for fire, Targaryen.

The story is in how does one pluck a flower that doesn't want plucking? Or more has already been plucked and now belongs to the dead?

Jon has "masculine" symbolisms too: sun, thief, etc.

"And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman." Ygritte insisted. 

— A Storm of Swords, Jon III

"Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.  "Thief," the raven agreed.

—  A Dance with Dragons, Jon VIII

"You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

— A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI

The blue rose represents the union of his parents but he's a Targaryen, not a winter rose. 

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

snip

On 4/11/2017 at 9:09 AM, Horse of Kent said:

snip

Great additions!

Thanks for the comments. 

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

14 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

I'm pretty sure Rhaegar planned on making Lyanna Visenya's mother since Harrenhall, also Lyanna doesn't have the power or authority to plan an escape it was all down to Rhaegar and his Kingsguard. 

Now that I think about it, why was Lyanna traveling alone?

Anyway, You can probably tell that I'm strongly against this idea. Mostly because it makes the romantic framework that GRRM sets around R and L quite pointless if his motivation for everything is just !prophecy!, but also because he can't have been trying to recreate the original three headed dragon when he had Rhaenys, having thought himself as TPTWP. There are things, like how there's no reason Lyanna had to be the mother of the 3rd head of the dragon as opposed to some random Northern chick, but this isn't the right thread to get into it.

[chrisdaw]

41 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Jon has "masculine" symbolisms too: sun, thief, etc.

"And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman." Ygritte insisted. 

— A Storm of Swords, Jon III

"Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.  "Thief," the raven agreed.

—  A Dance with Dragons, Jon VIII

"You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

— A Dance with Dragons, Jon VI

The blue rose represents the union of his parents but he's a Targaryen, not a winter rose. 

Great additions!

Thanks for the comments. 

 

He's the sun to Dany's moon but that's not symbolism repeated outside of Dany's side as far as I'm aware. Jon's not the Thief, he's the Moonmaid.

Quote

the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief.

Red wanderer is Dany as she wandered the Red Wastes as she is therefor the Thief, they're the same thing (and will eventually play the part of the Smith as per the AA story). And she'll be the one wandering her way to Jon, at the wall. The blue flower needs to be plucked, needs to be stolen, as Bael did. The thief come to the Moonmaid.

Moon and Moonmaid different things, yes Dany is the moon.

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The moon was a graceful crescent, and it seemed as though he had never seen so many stars. The King's Crown was at the zenith, and he could see the Stallion rearing, and there the Swan. The Moonmaid, shy as ever, was half-hidden behind a pine tree. How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me?

The stars her followers, as per the Dothraki Khalassar beliefs, she just got her Unsullied. Moonmaid shy as ever, Jon still hiding.

The Thief will get the Moonmaid, the Moon and the Sun will kiss, and then you'll get a pregnant moon.

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Only the brightest stars were visible, all to the west. A dull red glow lit the sky to the northeast, the color of a blood bruise. Tyrion had never seen a bigger moon. Monstrous, swollen, it looked as if it had swallowed the sun and woken with a fever.

And at some point the moon is going to crown the moonmaid.

Quote

The moon had crowned the Moonmaid

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The story is in how does one pluck a flower that doesn't want plucking?

Dany could tell him she'll commit all her resources, armies, dragons, food and gold to help him fight the Others and defend the Wall. I imagine Jon would willingly sleep with just about anyone if it would give mankind a chance of surviving winter.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I imagine Jon would willingly sleep with just about anyone if it would give mankind a chance of surviving winter.

Close his eyes and think of Westeros ;-)

 

[Pikachu101]

9 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Mostly because it makes the romantic framework that GRRM sets around R and L quite pointless

What romantic framework? George had characters romanticise Rhaegar and Lyanna but that doesn't mean his intention for R+L=J was to be romantic. Nothing about the relationship screams romance if anything he took the traditional romance trope and turned it on its head; the not so honourable prince was married with kids, the lady was trapped in a tower instead of being saved from one, the Starks fought the Targaryens etc. George has taken an unconventional approach to asoiaf and R+L is one of them.

9 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

Lyanna had to be the mother of the 3rd head of the dragon as opposed to some random Northern chick

 Because she's a Stark the ice to Rhaegar's fire, also I think it wasn't until he realised she was the KotLT that he decided she had to be warrior Visenya's mother.

But this isn't the thread for this. 

Back to OP's question; the truth is we don't know enough about Lyanna to make a decision of which niece she takes after maybe both? She had Arya's wolf blood but also Sansa's naivety and romanticism. Guess we won't know until TWoW or ADoS 

[elipride]

2 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

the truth is we don't know enough about Lyanna to make a decision of which niece she takes after maybe both? She had Arya's wolf blood but also Sansa's naivety and romanticism. Guess we won't know until TWoW or ADoS 

But we do know, the text clearly compares her to Arya in both appeareance and personality. Not saying they're the same or that things can't change in the future or that Lyanna doesn't have similarities with other characters, but for now Arya is the most relevant comparison. When you say that Lyanna was too naive to be like Arya, are you taking into account that Arya was very naive too but had to go though some very different life experiences that hardened her?  And unlike Lyanna, Arya is still a child, how do you know that they are so different when it comes to romantic interests? And who knows if Lyanna even was in love with Rhaegar. Lyanna was betrothed to someone, realized he wasn't very good and probably tried to look for a way out. Sansa was bethrothed to someone, ignored his flaws and went along with it. Very different things.

[Springwatch]

9 hours ago, elipride said:

 Lyanna was betrothed to someone, realized he wasn't very good and probably tried to look for a way out. Sansa was bethrothed to someone, ignored his flaws and went along with it. Very different things.

I think Lyanna might have made a mistake here. Turns out she was in fact the love of Robert's life and that love never died. He could be faithful to her. He wanted adventure and laughter, so did she. So he slept around before marriage - who's going to blame him for that? But she couldn't love him, and that's just one of life's tragedies. If only Cersei had married Rhaegar, and Lyanna had loved and married Robert, all four could have lived as the best possible version of themselves, without getting twisted out of shape (as they do...)

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Cheers! Glad you enjoyed...

I feel like people are always trying to tell me Dany isn't a Stark... when in fact I think she fits Lyanna's themes better than either Arya or Sansa. 

It's one of those things which once I saw I couldn't unsee...

R+L=J&D

You know, I've never even questioned R+L=J, because I was so certain the central mysteries of the book would be kept simple enough for the average reader to pick up on at first read: it seemed the only sensible plan the author could make. But that sort of thinking only applies pre-internet; nowadays anyone can get up to speed with subtle theories at the click of a button. So I shouldn't take anything for granted really...

21 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Jon is the blue flower, he is the one for being plucked. And we see it in the series, Ygritte had to aggressively pursue him before she won him. Alys Karstark scratches the surface to see what might be behind, Mel straight puts it out there and Val's playing the wildling game of waiting to be stolen. All to no avail. He's a fair flower, he must be pursued and he must be won, or stolen.

 

Love Jon as the fair flower , but I won't have him as the moonmaid; I've been working on a different scheme entirely.

Quote

Danny for Dany, Flint for fire, Targaryen.

This is good. You can't stop there though. It's not just Danny Flint and Dancy, there's plenty of other names in that sort of range from Dany/Daenerys. There's Daeryssa and Naerys (favourites of Sansa), Daena, Daenerys v1, Danelle ... probably more than that - Nissa Nissa perhaps? I'm even considering Daario Naharis - each has a bit of Dany's name, and perhaps each has a bit of Dany's story. Some definitely do, others might later on.

Finally. I've been reading this thread - it has some good thoughts on our topic (before moving on to knights). Recommended.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136858-from-death-to-dawn-3-sansa-lyanna-jaime-rhaegar-and-the-search-for-one-true-knight/

[LiveFirstDieLater]

36 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

You know, I've never even questioned R+L=J, because I was so certain the central mysteries of the book would be kept simple enough for the average reader to pick up on at first read: it seemed the only sensible plan the author could make. But that sort of thinking only applies pre-internet; nowadays anyone can get up to speed with subtle theories at the click of a button. So I shouldn't take anything for granted really...

And I'm not saying Jon isn't the firstborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar's second (after all, all the Male GoT PoVs are second sons)... but of course it's all speculation until we get a conclusion!

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Love Jon as the fair flower , but I won't have him as the moonmaid; I've been working on a different scheme entirely.

Love doesn't have to be romantic love... maybe what Dany has been searching for is family and not a husband...

Quote

This is good. You can't stop there though. It's not just Danny Flint and Dancy, there's plenty of other names in that sort of range from Dany/Daenerys. There's Daeryssa and Naerys (favourites of Sansa), Daena, Daenerys v1, Danelle ... probably more than that - Nissa Nissa perhaps? I'm even considering Daario Naharis - each has a bit of Dany's name, and perhaps each has a bit of Dany's story. Some definitely do, others might later on.

The Northern nickname out of one of their old tales, where the girl isn't who she appears to be?

Brave Danny Flint (as far as I can tell nobody else ever uses the nickname Dany). Flint is frozen fire like obsidian, in fact maybe an even better metaphor, given that Dany is the mother of dragons and sparks fly from flint.

Danny Flint was a woman who disguised herself as a man...

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"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess."

Dany is the Prince that was Promised, except she's a woman... but she did wake fire(dragons) from stone... like flint!

Of course the Brave Danny Flint story all ends in tears, as these sorts of arrangements usually do... Danny gets raped and murdered by her "brothers".

 

[Ygrain]

40 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think Lyanna might have made a mistake here. Turns out she was in fact the love of Robert's life and that love never died. He could be faithful to her. He wanted adventure and laughter, so did she. So he slept around before marriage - who's going to blame him for that? But she couldn't love him, and that's just one of life's tragedies. If only Cersei had married Rhaegar, and Lyanna had loved and married Robert, all four could have lived as the best possible version of themselves, without getting twisted out of shape (as they do...)

I think you're being overly optimistic here. Robert saw Lyanna's beauty, not the iron beneath - he never really knew her. His "love" fourteen years later is a desire for something he never had, an unattainable ideal enhanced by his fucked up life. For someone like Robert, sex is on the same level as food and drink: a bodily need to be sated without much thought. He probably wouldn't be cheating on Lyanna during the first months of their marriage but as the initial sexual interest would be sated, he would return to his old ways, and wouldn't think he was doing anything wrong because for him, the partners for casual sex were totally unimportant. IMHO, his marriage with Lyanna would have the potential to go even sourer than with Cersei, for whom he never care in the first place. However, being rejected by the woman he "loved"... Robert was not one to admit his own mistakes, so he would perceive the fault with Lyanna, just like he did with Cersei - but Lyanna probably wouldn't put up with being raped like Cersei did, so things could get really, really ugly there.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think you're being overly optimistic here. Robert saw Lyanna's beauty, not the iron beneath - he never really knew her. His "love" fourteen years later is a desire for something he never had, an unattainable ideal enhanced by his fucked up life. For someone like Robert, sex is on the same level as food and drink: a bodily need to be sated without much thought. He probably wouldn't be cheating on Lyanna during the first months of their marriage but as the initial sexual interest would be sated, he would return to his old ways, and wouldn't think he was doing anything wrong because for him, the partners for casual sex were totally unimportant. IMHO, his marriage with Lyanna would have the potential to go even sourer than with Cersei, for whom he never care in the first place. However, being rejected by the woman he "loved"... Robert was not one to admit his own mistakes, so he would perceive the fault with Lyanna, just like he did with Cersei - but Lyanna probably wouldn't put up with being raped like Cersei did, so things could get really, really ugly there.

I don't know, it's certainly tragic...

And while Robert definitely sleeps around, I don't think there were other examples of names he's whispering drunk while on top of another woman... perhaps he did really love Lyanna, we'll never know, and we'll never know if he'd have been faithful, Lyanna didn't seem to think he would be, but, well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

This is good. You can't stop there though.

There's many a Dany parallel, symbol and foreshadowing, I'm working with those that demonstrate the point that Jon is the prize as Dany is the pursuer, and as such he is the flower and she the plucker. They're shorthand for the swathes of narrative organised to usher in this dynamic.

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't know, it's certainly tragic...

And while Robert definitely sleeps around, I don't think there were other examples of names he's whispering drunk while on top of another woman... perhaps he did really love Lyanna, we'll never know, and we'll never know if he'd have been faithful, Lyanna didn't seem to think he would be, but, well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken.

Because Lyanna is special for him - the one he never had. Her death placed her on a pedestal. While she was still alive, Robert had no problem finding sexual outlets, even though she was presumably being held by Rhaegar.

To be clear: I don't think Robert was incapable of love. Only, that love and sex were not necessarily connected in his mind. He wouldn't be cheating on Lyanna because he didn't love her, but simply because he saw nothing wrong with satisfying an urge with some common wench, just like he would eat and drink when hungry or thirsty.

[elipride]

14 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I think Lyanna might have made a mistake here. Turns out she was in fact the love of Robert's life and that love never died. He could be faithful to her. He wanted adventure and laughter, so did she. So he slept around before marriage - who's going to blame him for that? But she couldn't love him, and that's just one of life's tragedies. If only Cersei had married Rhaegar, and Lyanna had loved and married Robert, all four could have lived as the best possible version of themselves, without getting twisted out of shape (as they do...)

Seems to me that sleeping around was just part of his nature, and it's socially accepted for men to do that so I don't think it Robert would even register this as a problem. And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Gendry conceived around the time Lyanna was missing? He goes rescue the love of his life and kills the time with other women?

I personally don't think he was truly in love with Lyanna, more like he was "in love" with an idealized version of her that was sweet, gentle and perfect. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that he was not the kind of man who would like a woman who was headstrong and stood up to him, so I think that their marriage would be at least as miserable as the one with Cersei. Obsession is not the same as love.

 

[Pikachu101]

On 06/11/2017 at 9:29 PM, Springwatch said:

Well. It was sort of the point that Sansa is sometimes accused of a lack of Starkiness

Which is odd considering from all her siblings she's most like Ned