Sansa/Arya and Lyanna Parallels

[Pikachu101]

9 minutes ago, elipride said:

I personally don't think he was truly in love with Lyanna, more like he was "in love" with an idealized version of her that was sweet, gentle and perfect. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that he was not the kind of man who would like a woman who was headstrong and stood up to him, so I think that their marriage would be at least as miserable as the one with Cersei. Obsession is not the same as love.

 

Robert would have hated Lyanna

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Which is odd considering from all her siblings she's most like Ned 

No

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Pikachu101 said:

Robert would have hated Lyanna

What does that even mean? It's not like they never met...

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, elipride said:

Seems to me that sleeping around was just part of his nature, and it's socially accepted for men to do that so I don't think it Robert would even register this as a problem. And correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Gendry conceived around the time Lyanna was missing? He goes rescue the love of his life and kills the time with other women?

Gendry would have been conceived after King's Landing was taken.

Bella from the Peach is another matter, however. And what he was up to at Stoney Sept while he was hiding there speaks a lot to his character. I don't think Jaime was wrong in his assessment about Robert, when he said that the main reason he went to war was for his pride.

1 hour ago, elipride said:

I personally don't think he was truly in love with Lyanna, more like he was "in love" with an idealized version of her that was sweet, gentle and perfect. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that he was not the kind of man who would like a woman who was headstrong and stood up to him, so I think that their marriage would be at least as miserable as the one with Cersei. Obsession is not the same as love.

I don't think he was in love with her either. If the way he treated Cersei is any indication, I doubt Lyanna would have fared any better in the long term. Lyanna seems to have been pragmatic enough to understand that Robert wasn't a man who would change for her or anyone. Ned chose to see what he wanted to see when it came to Robert, so who knows about all the things he may have ignored when it came to his sister.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

56 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Gendry would have been conceived after King's Landing was taken.

Bella from the Peach is another matter, however. And what he was up to at Stoney Sept while he was hiding there speaks a lot to his character. I don't think Jaime was wrong in his assessment about Robert, when he said that the main reason he went to war was for his pride.

I don't think he was in love with her either. If the way he treated Cersei is any indication, I doubt Lyanna would have fared any better in the long term. Lyanna seems to have been pragmatic enough to understand that Robert wasn't a man who would change for her or anyone. Ned chose to see what he wanted to see when it came to Robert, so who knows about all the things he may have ignored when it came to his sister.

I'm not going to pretend to dictate what "real love" is... but Robert wasn't the oblivious dumb drunk some people make him out to be. He recognized his own failings and lack of desire to govern. And even after all the years and other women he still seemed to really believe Lyanna was his one true love. We'll never know if it would have worked out better for him, but fidelity is not the defining feature of love.

Also, it's not totally clear if he would have been so permiscuous if he'd had a functional relationship, we never saw what Robert would have been like. Lyanna doesn't think love can change a man's nature, I'm not sure I'm convinced, after all, if not love, then what can change a man's nature?

As for hitting Cersei, I'm against domestic violence, but I'm against lying and telling a husband your bastards are his children while plotting his murder... so I'm not going to say anything about the situation was just, but it hardly ranks among evil deeds in the family. I judge Robert more harshly for his blind hate of Dragonspawn.

[Pikachu101]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No

 

Care to elaborate. 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What does that even mean? It's not like they never met...

 

Meeting someone isn’t the same as actually knowing them, Robert romanticised Lyanna turning her into something she wasn’t. She would have hated his womanising as much as Cersei and from what we can see she isn’t exactly submissive. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

45 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

Care to elaborate. 

Not really, Lady's dead... and Sansa isn't honest, dutiful, honorable, or loyal, Ned's most defining characteristics. Saying she's the most like him of his children is preposterous.

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Meeting someone isn’t the same as actually knowing them, Robert romanticised Lyanna turning her into something she wasn’t. She would have hated his womanising as much as Cersei and from what we can see she isn’t exactly submissive. 

No way to know if he would have been as permiscuous if his wife slept with him... and no way to know how their relationship would have gone.

But Rheagar had a wife already, so permiscuity wasn't a deal breaker for her anyway... and not even Lyanna denied Robert loved her.

Anyway, Lyanna was a child and not some purveyor of ancient wisdom... if love can't change a man's nature then what can?

Hint: Ned's love for Lyanna makes him lie, against his nature...

[Springwatch]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Gendry would have been conceived after King's Landing was taken.

Bella from the Peach is another matter, however. And what he was up to at Stoney Sept while he was hiding there speaks a lot to his character. I don't think Jaime was wrong in his assessment about Robert, when he said that the main reason he went to war was for his pride.

I don't think he was in love with her either. If the way he treated Cersei is any indication, I doubt Lyanna would have fared any better in the long term. Lyanna seems to have been pragmatic enough to understand that Robert wasn't a man who would change for her or anyone. Ned chose to see what he wanted to see when it came to Robert, so who knows about all the things he may have ignored when it came to his sister.

Much as I love Cersei, it has to be said she is pretty much toxic nearly all the time. And always was. So Robert got lumbered with this demon wife at the same time as a lifelong 24/7 job that he hated and was wholly unsuited for. I consider myself a nice person, but in his position I'd take all the consolation going and I hope I'd have the courage to push Cersei off the highest tower in King's Landing as well.

The marriage made each of them worse, as I said. Maybe, maybe if Cersei had got her heart's desire with Rhaegar, she'd be happy, he'd be faithful, and the world would be saved by a trio of silver-maned lions.

Robert too - he had the potential to be a great husband. He behaved like any young man would who was extremely handsome, rich and charismatic. He wasn't hurting Lyanna's feelings by sleeping around - she didn't have any feelings for him. The relationship begins with the marriage - there's no expectation of celibacy beforehand.

This all makes Lyanna's excuse that Robert couldn't be faithful in marriage sound really weak, especially as Rhaegar wasn't faithful either. I really wonder if she wasn't already in love with Rhaegar when she said it.

[Ygrain]

38 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This all makes Lyanna's excuse that Robert couldn't be faithful in marriage sound really weak, especially as Rhaegar wasn't faithful either. I really wonder if she wasn't already in love with Rhaegar when she said it.

I believe Lyanna is applying a bit of a double standard here - the point is not fidelity in marriage in general but fidelity to her, and in that respect, she had no reason to doubt Rhaegar.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

44 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Much as I love Cersei, it has to be said she is pretty much toxic nearly all the time. And always was. So Robert got lumbered with this demon wife at the same time as a lifelong 24/7 job that he hated and was wholly unsuited for. I consider myself a nice person, but in his position I'd take all the consolation going and I hope I'd have the courage to push Cersei off the highest tower in King's Landing as well.

The marriage made each of them worse, as I said. Maybe, maybe if Cersei had got her heart's desire with Rhaegar, she'd be happy, he'd be faithful, and the world would be saved by a trio of silver-maned lions.

Robert too - he had the potential to be a great husband. He behaved like any young man would who was extremely handsome, rich and charismatic. He wasn't hurting Lyanna's feelings by sleeping around - she didn't have any feelings for him. The relationship begins with the marriage - there's no expectation of celibacy beforehand.

This all makes Lyanna's excuse that Robert couldn't be faithful in marriage sound really weak, especially as Rhaegar wasn't faithful either. I really wonder if she wasn't already in love with Rhaegar when she said it.

Or if Robert had loved her, that is his fault too, on their wedding night, he whispered another woman's name. 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not really, Lady's dead... and Sansa isn't honest, dutiful, honorable, or loyal, Ned's most defining characteristics. Saying she's the most like him of his children is preposterous.

No way to know if he would have been as permiscuous if his wife slept with him... and no way to know how their relationship would have gone.

But Rheagar had a wife already, so permiscuity wasn't a deal breaker for her anyway... and not even Lyanna denied Robert loved her.

Anyway, Lyanna was a child and not some purveyor of ancient wisdom... if love can't change a man's nature then what can?

Hint: Ned's love for Lyanna makes him lie, against his nature...

Romantic love is different from familial love but if Harry and Robert are similar, then I don't blame Lyanna for not believing in him.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

35 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Much as I love Cersei, it has to be said she is pretty much toxic nearly all the time. And always was. So Robert got lumbered with this demon wife at the same time as a lifelong 24/7 job that he hated and was wholly unsuited for. I consider myself a nice person, but in his position I'd take all the consolation going and I hope I'd have the courage to push Cersei off the highest tower in King's Landing as well.

Cersei is her own brand of crazy and I'm not saying that the thing she did were excusable. She slept with Jaime on the morning of her wedding. She and Robert were toxic together. I know there was an instance when Robert asked Cersei to go ride with him and she refused him which seemed to deflate him.

There are people who put it in their heads that they can change someone if they love them enough or because someone loves them enough then they will be able to change. Lyanna just didn't seem to have any kind of expectations towards any of that.  

38 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

This all makes Lyanna's excuse that Robert couldn't be faithful in marriage sound really weak, especially as Rhaegar wasn't faithful either. I really wonder if she wasn't already in love with Rhaegar when she said it

I have been coming around more and more to the idea that they may have known each other before Harrenhal ever happened. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

28 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Or if Robert had loved her, that is his fault too, on their wedding night, he whispered another woman's name. 

Robert's fault he loved Lyanna? Ok...

Cersei and Roberts relationship was messed up on both sides though for sure.

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Romantic love is different from familial love but if Harry and Robert are similar, then I don't blame Lyanna for not believing in him.

Tell that to the Lannisters, or the Targaryens...

Also, I don't see the Harry/Robert parallel except that (like sooooo many lords) they have bastards... and I don't blame Lyanna for "not believing him" I blame her for saying fidelity is a deal breaker, saying love can't change a man' so nature, and then running off with a married man.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Robert's fault he loved Lyanna? Ok...

Cersei and Roberts relationship was messed up on both sides though for sure.

I'm talking about the situation itself, not his feelings. 

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Tell that to the Lannisters, or the Targaryens..

That's romantic and familial love, ex. Jaime is her brother and her lover. 

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Also, I don't see the Harry/Robert parallel except that (like sooooo many lords) they have bastards... and I don't blame Lyanna for "not believing him" I blame her for saying fidelity is a deal breaker, saying love can't change a man' so nature, and then running off with a married man.

Rhaegar was faithful to her, he left his wife for her, that's the difference. It's selfish, yes.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I believe Lyanna is applying a bit of a double standard here - the point is not fidelity in marriage in general but fidelity to her, and in that respect, she had no reason to doubt Rhaegar.

Exactly. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Rhaegar was faithful to her, he left his wife for her, that's the difference. It's selfish, yes.

Exactly. 

Was he?

Rhaegar left Lyanna and returned to Kings Landing, his wife, and his children... then raised an army to fight her brother.

Love is sweet, but come the fuck on

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That's romantic and familial love, ex. Jaime is her brother and her lover. 

Why do you draw a distinction? Is it something in the text? Lust and love are different, but types of love? Not so sure

But either way, I still don't think there is anything more likely to change a man's nature

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

15 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Was he?

Rhaegar left Lyanna and returned to Kings Landing, his wife, and his children... then raised an army to fight her brother.

Love is sweet, but come the fuck on

He returned to his children, not his wife (or ex-wife) and we don't know how she felt about it, there's not enough material. 

19 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Why do you draw a distinction? Is it something in the text? Lust and love are different, but types of love? Not so sure

But either way, I still don't think there is anything more likely to change a man's nature

Of course there are different types of loves? Romantic love is always paired with sexual attraction.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

He returned to his children, not his wife (or ex-wife) and we don't know how she felt about it, there's not enough material. 

What? Are you saying Elia wasn't in King's Landing? What ex-wife? Is there any evidence that divorce even exists in Westeros? What does how Elia felt about it have anything to do with this conversation... but why would she be ok with it?

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Of course there are different types of loves? Romantic love is always paired with sexual attraction.

This is just you making assumptions.

And you can have romance without sexual attraction... 

You have a very antiquated view of love

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What? Are you saying Elia wasn't in King's Landing? What ex-wife? Is there any evidence that divorce even exists in Westeros? What does how Elia felt about it have anything to do with this conversation... but why would she be ok with it?

This is just you making assumptions.

Lyanna, not Elia.

Yes, divorce exists in Westeros, GRRM has mentioned it before, it's rare but it happens. 

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And you can have romance without sexual attraction... 

You have a very antiquated view of love

In our world? Yes, there are asexual people but most people are sexually attracted to their partners. You really think there's no difference between the love you feel for a boyfriend/girlfriend and the love you feel for a sister/brother? There is no proof of asexual romantic attraction in the books. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Lyanna, not Elia.

 I'm going to overlook what I can only assume you are remembering from the tv show, and has no basis in the books at least yet, about any R/L wedding or Elia annulment... 

 Rhaegar left Lyanna (presumably at the ToJ) and returned to Elia and his children in King's Landing... fact... I don't know why you would think he was "faithful" to Lyanna... 

2 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Yes, divorce exists in Westeros, GRRM has mentioned it before, it's rare but it happens. 

Divorce has never been mentioned in ASoIaF... I'm not sure what you are referring to.

2 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

In our world? Yes, there are asexual people but most people are sexually attracted to their partners. 

In our world? Lol funny 

 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

13 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 I'm going to overlook what I can only assume you are remembering from the tv show, and has no basis in the books at least yet, about any R/L wedding or Elia annulment... 

 Rhaegar left Lyanna (presumably at the ToJ) and returned to Elia and his children in King's Landing... fact... I don't know why you would think he was "faithful" to Lyanna... 

Divorce has never been mentioned in ASoIaF... I'm not sure what you are referring to.

In our world? Lol funny 

 

You're the one making assumptions: unfaithful Rhaegar, asexual romantic attraction between the characters.

I said: OR ex-wife, it's always been a possibility, a popular theory, I can link you to some threads if you want. 

You said I have a very antiquated view of love, that's a personal observation, you're obviously not referring to the books. 

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar was "fond" of his wife who either couldn't conceive at all now or the next childbirth would most likely kill her, given that Aegon's nearly did. I don't think Lyanna had much to worry about in regard to Elia during Rhaegar's stay in KL.