Sansa/Arya and Lyanna Parallels

[Pikachu101]

15 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

I said: OR ex-wife, it's always been a possibility, a popular theory, I can link you to some threads if you want. 

It really isn't the annulment/divorce senario only came up because of that godawful tv show, the popular theory is that Rhaegar made Lyanna his second wife his reasoning for it however is up for debate. Personally I don't think he married her. 

We're getting off track; the thread is about which niece takes after Lyanna and I'm going with Arya, that being said depending on what George writes in TWoW and ADoS we might start seeing parallels between her and Sansa. 

[Springwatch]

On 08/11/2017 at 0:17 PM, Pikachu101 said:

Robert would have hated Lyanna

I just don't think so - any dating app would have given the match top marks. Look at their sense of humour! He starts a food fight with rotten oranges. She pours wine over Benjen's head. So, they are on the same wavelength already, it's a good start.

The problem is Rhaegar was just so magnetic, so incredibly, irresistably good looking - everyone went crazy over him: Cersei, Lyanna, JonCon. Being the chosen one must have been a dizzying experience.

On 08/11/2017 at 5:12 PM, Ygrain said:

I believe Lyanna is applying a bit of a double standard here - the point is not fidelity in marriage in general but fidelity to her, and in that respect, she had no reason to doubt Rhaegar.

I agree. The irony being that no matter how much he loved her, if she had been unable to give him a baby, he would have gone looking for wifelet number three.

4 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

We're getting off track; the thread is about which niece takes after Lyanna and I'm going with Arya, that being said depending on what George writes in TWoW and ADoS we might start seeing parallels between her and Sansa. 

Oops, yes. The thread has come full circle.

Really then, what does it mean to be a parallel? The Knight of the Laughing Tree fought for justice. Then she died. In the next generation, Arya is the one fighting for justice. Is she the Knight of the Laughing Tree? And doomed to the same fate?

I get the feeling that there is a 'right' version of every story, and we keep getting the wrong one. There was a second attempt to marry a Barratheon son to a Stark daughter when Joff & Sansa were betrothed. That failed. There's a third chance with Gendry and Arya. I think that's significant, but I don't know how much she is bound by Lyanna's story.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

5 hours ago, Pikachu101 said:

It really isn't the annulment/divorce senario only came up because of that godawful tv show, the popular theory is that Rhaegar made Lyanna his second wife his reasoning for it however is up for debate. Personally I don't think he married her. 

We're getting off track; the thread is about which niece takes after Lyanna and I'm going with Arya, that being said depending on what George writes in TWoW and ADoS we might start seeing parallels between her and Sansa. 

It's a popular theory, but not the most accepted.

"Date: April 14, this has probably been discussed before."

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

It's a popular theory, but not the most accepted. 

I've seen the tv show too... but there is no evidence for what you are saying in the books... divorce is never mentioned at all, nobody ever suggests the marriage to Elia was annulled (they had two kids, it doesn't even make sense unless you think they weren't Rhaegar's kids, and I've never heard that even proposed), there is perhaps some circumstantial evidence of Lyanna and Rhaegar being married (Kingsguard at the ToJ, Lyanna wearing a white dress at the feast of the dead, etc.).

But we should return to the topic I suppose! Though I enjoyed the weeds

 

When the raven came, bearing a letter marked with Father's own seal and written in Sansa's hand, the cruel truth seemed no less incredible. Bran would never forget the look on Robb's face as he stared at their sister's words. "She says Father conspired at treason with the king's brothers," he read. "King Robert is dead, and Mother and I are summoned to the Red Keep to swear fealty to Joffrey. She says we must be loyal, and when she marries Joffrey she will plead with him to spare our lord father's life." His fingers closed into a fist, crushing Sansa's letter between them. "And she says nothing of Arya, nothing, not so much as a word. Damn her! What's wrong with the girl?"

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones.

 

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

3 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

there is no evidence for what you are saying in the books...

Um, you think Dany is Lyanna's daughter, which is fine, but there is no evidence for what you're saying in the books.

4 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

When the raven came, bearing a letter marked with Father's own seal and written in Sansa's hand, the cruel truth seemed no less incredible. Bran would never forget the look on Robb's face as he stared at their sister's words. "She says Father conspired at treason with the king's brothers," he read. "King Robert is dead, and Mother and I are summoned to the Red Keep to swear fealty to Joffrey. She says we must be loyal, and when she marries Joffrey she will plead with him to spare our lord father's life." His fingers closed into a fist, crushing Sansa's letter between them. "And she says nothing of Arya, nothing, not so much as a word. Damn her! What's wrong with the girl?"

Bran felt all cold inside. "She lost her wolf," he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father's guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady's bones.

What exactly are you implying with this quote? This is not a parallel. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

16 minutes ago, TRILOGY said:

Um, you think Dany is Lyanna's daughter, which is fine, but there is no evidence for what you're saying in the books.

Hold that thought, it'll get its own thread here at some point (clearly there are many already, almost anything to do with a lemon tree in fact, I just meant my own thread)... but long story short, you're wrong. More importantly however, even if you disagree, at least I use textual evidence.

Quote

What exactly are you implying with this quote? This is not a parallel. 

Lyanna went south and only her bones came back... and that's, at bare minimum, a parallel. 

More importantly though, it's pointing out that even Bran regonizes Sansa abandoned her family's interest.

In fact, Sansa betrays her father on behalf of her own love interest... and now her brother is going to rush south to his own death... sound familiar?

[Springwatch]

23 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

When the raven came...

The letter's a good one - there's not a word wrong with it. Nothing true about Arya would have made it past the censors anyway.

The lost wolf is an issue though. I'm sure Sansa never had the wolf blood. Lady helped her grow in confidence and power - clearing the crowds, facing off Ilyn and the Hound. Now Lady's gone, Sansa just has little bits of courage and defiance left, and it's hard to tell if she's growing in strength or losing it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The letter's a good one - there's not a word wrong with it. Nothing true about Arya would have made it past the censors anyway.

But the point is she wrote lies to her family for her own interest. I know she's a child, I know she was a captive under duress... but how many other Starks do you think would just lay down and let themselves get used like that? I'm not saying it's not understandable, it's just not very Stark.

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

The lost wolf is an issue though. I'm sure Sansa never had the wolf blood. Lady helped her grow in confidence and power - clearing the crowds, facing off Ilyn and the Hound. Now Lady's gone, Sansa just has little bits of courage and defiance left, and it's hard to tell if she's growing in strength or losing it.

Sansa betrayed the wolfblood, that's why she lost the wolf...

[Springwatch]

30 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But the point is she wrote lies to her family for her own interest.

Did she? Ned conspired at treason, Rob was summoned, the Starks must be loyal (doesn't say to whom), Sansa will plead for mercy for Ned (not a bad plan actually - get Joff to publicly commit himself to mercy. It might have done some good - Ned didn't get flayed at least.)

Quote

Sansa betrayed the wolfblood, that's why she lost the wolf...

That's your conclusion, not an argument. I think there's a little bit of Lady left in Sansa's head and heart. She acts in ways she doesn't understand herself - she calls it madness, but it's actually a moment of courage - she acts like Lyanna would have done.

Quote

AGOT: A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say,"Maybe my brother will give me your head."

ACOK: Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn't meant to say anything ... Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm.

Note: Sansa has a significant justice arc to get though - always ending up in court rooms, always looking at severed heads. Not exactly how Lyanna and Arya do justice, but still.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Did she? Ned conspired at treason, Rob was summoned, the Starks must be loyal (doesn't say to whom), Sansa will plead for mercy for Ned (not a bad plan actually - get Joff to publicly commit himself to mercy. It might have done some good - Ned didn't get flayed at least.)

Yes, Ned didn't conspire at treason. But that wasn't really the point.

The point is that she is acting on behalf of the enemy. She is willingly writing a letter in service to those who just threw her dad in the black cells... 

Again, I understand, even sympathize with the position she was left in, alone and as a child. 

But I can't see Arya agreeing to write that letter, or Robb, or Bran, or any of the Starks. It is a form of surrender uncharacteristic of them.

Cat on the other hand, seems like just her type of move.

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

That's your conclusion, not an argument.

True! But she only gets the wolf because she is Ned Stark's daughter, part of the pack. When she betrays the trust of the pack, Ned Stark executes her wolf.

Cause and Effect isn't really something I can prove in a fictional tale, but it sure seems correlated.

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I think there's a little bit of Lady left in Sansa's head and heart. She acts in ways she doesn't understand herself - she calls it madness, but it's actually a moment of courage - she acts like Lyanna would have done.

(Looking for quotes)

I'm not going to rule the idea out, I'm interested to see the quotes! Cheers

[Springwatch]

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But I can't see Arya agreeing to write that letter, or Robb, or Bran, or any of the Starks. It is a form of surrender uncharacteristic of them.

Cat on the other hand, seems like just her type of move.

Actually I agree! Sansa and Cat are both born politicians, the others are mostly hero types. I think the message might be that it takes all types to make a pack.

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

True! But she only gets the wolf because she is Ned Stark's daughter, part of the pack. When she betrays the trust of the pack, Ned Stark executes her wolf.

And then Ned got executed himself. Divine justice or what?

5 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm not going to rule the idea out, I'm interested to see the quotes! Cheers

Quotes in - inserted into the post above. I think you'll like them.

[Springwatch]

Back to parallels. So, after dealing with justice, our heroine goes to her tower.

Lyanna chooses a Tower of Joy. Sansa chooses a castle of snow. There must be a tower that has meaning for Arya. I'll try the wiki.

[Lollygag]

2 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Back to parallels. So, after dealing with justice, our heroine goes to her tower.

Lyanna chooses a Tower of Joy. Sansa chooses a castle of snow. There must be a tower that has meaning for Arya. I'll try the wiki.

The Titan of Braavos qualifies as a tower as it's hollowed out and used as a building.

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

And then Ned got executed himself. Divine justice or what?

Yup and Ned confessed to treason to save Sansa's life after she made herself Cersei's hostage. Maybe she's more like Brandon instead of Lyanna.

[ravenous reader]

21 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Back to parallels. So, after dealing with justice, our heroine goes to her tower.

Lyanna chooses a Tower of Joy. Sansa chooses a castle of snow. There must be a tower that has meaning for Arya. I'll try the wiki.

I'm not sure if your parallel holds all the way:  Lyanna and Sansa had their respective towers chosen for them by Rhaegar and Littlefinger, respectively.  In contrast, of the three only Arya can be said to have truly 'chosen' her own fate.  Nevertheless, all three 'towers' are prisons of sorts.

Arya's 'hollow hill' (shout-out @Wizz-The-Smith):

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Arya I

Yorko grunted. They went around a bend and beneath another bridge. On their left appeared a rocky knoll with a windowless temple of dark grey stone at its top. A flight of stone steps led from its doors down to a covered dock.

Yorko backed the oars, and the boat bumped gently against stone pilings. He grasped an iron ring set to hold them for a moment. "Here I leave you."

The dock was shadowed, the steps steep. The temple's black tile roof came to a sharp peak, like the houses along the canals. Arya chewed her lip. Syrio came from Braavos. He might have visited this temple. He might have climbed those steps. She grabbed a ring and pulled herself up onto the dock.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Actually I agree! Sansa and Cat are both born politicians, the others are mostly hero types. I think the message might be that it takes all types to make a pack.

So I'm not sure "politicking" is an admirable quality... effective in manipulation, sure... but I'm not sure it's a positive trait.

And I certainly don't think that they are part of the pack... especially Cat.

48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

And then Ned got executed himself. Divine justice or what?

It seems to me it was Sansa who got Ned executed... and maybe less important but still noteworthy it was for Sansa that Ned gives up his honor and "admits" to treason on her behalf... giving false testimony not to save himself (not worth sacrificing his honor) but to save Sansa. Just like with Lyanna, Ned sacrifices his own honor for his loved ones.

Meanwhile, honor doesn't seem to mean much Sansa... 

48 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Quotes in - inserted into the post above. I think you'll like them.

Nice ones! It's possible she has a little wolf in her still, though Cat had her own sort of madness...

Quote

 What would you say if you knew my crime, Father? she wondered. Would you have done as I did, if it were Lysa and me in the hands of our enemies? Or would you condemn me too, and call it mother's madness?

I would argue that this is more like Cat's motherly madness then it is like the wolfblood... which I associate with a more violent unrelenting rage. 

But, as you also pointed out, it's possible Sansa will change down the line and end up showing more or less wolfblood by the end...

Also, it's worth pointing out that it's Rob who losses his head.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

25 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Back to parallels. So, after dealing with justice, our heroine goes to her tower.

Lyanna chooses a Tower of Joy. Sansa chooses a castle of snow. There must be a tower that has meaning for Arya. I'll try the wiki.

Arya has pretty strong (and wonderful) opinions on princesses and towers...

Quote

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall.