“For the watch”

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Oh?  Are you saying Jon was going to return Arya back to Ramsay?  Any other course of action is treason and an act of war.  Either way that idiot Jon was wrong to interfere with Bolton affairs

Not at all. I'm saying exactly what I said. That Jon made no attempt to steal Arya from Ramsay. That is not the same thing as not returning her to Ramsay once she has escaped. I think you would be hard pressed to prove treason & an act of war for Jon not returning Arya but since he doesn't have Arya anyway it's a moot point. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Look, Jon chose Mance because the wildling has already proven he can get in and out of Winterfell.  Why all the trouble of getting the women from Mole's Town?  Why the elaborate disguise?  Because Jon knew full well that his underlings may have to sneak Arya out of Winterfell.  Do you really think Jon would stop at the thought of sending wildlings to Winterfell?  It's obvious from reading his own thoughts in those chapters that Jon would have stopped at nothing to get Arya.   Mance killed members of the Bolton household.  That's a violation of the ancient tradition of guest rights.  Jon sent Mance so Jon takes the blame for that too.

I never know if you people are trolling or not when you get like this but on the off chance you aren't:

- Show me one quote proving Jon chose Mance for anything 

- What textual evidence do you have to suggest Jon would stop at nothing to get Arya? It's actually very obvious that his main concern is not Arya. 

- Give me some textual evidence Jon sent Mance anywhere

Seriously, this is silly. I imagine you will ignore my post much the same as anyone else I've asked for evidence to Jon's supposed crimes but just in case you don't I'll politely wait for those quotes 

[Bowen Marsh]

2 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not at all. I'm saying exactly what I said. That Jon made no attempt to steal Arya from Ramsay. That is not the same thing as not returning her to Ramsay once she has escaped. I think you would be hard pressed to prove treason & an act of war for Jon not returning Arya but since he doesn't have Arya anyway it's a moot point. 

Good God!  Jon is guilty of treason.  Even if I give Jon a benefit of the doubt the size of the Wall and say he only sent Mance to rescue Arya from the snow.  Was Mance instructed to take Arya back to Winterfell?  No, he was not.  He was to take Arya to Jon.  That  is treason.  We both know Jon's intentions were more egregious than that.  He meant to take Arya away from Ramsay, no matter the consequences and get her away from her husband.  Now, mind you, all that business should not even concern him at this point.  He should forget about Arya and leave her be to whatever fate may happen to her.  He has bigger concerns and to stick his nose in Roose and Ramsay Bolton's affairs is forbidden and illegal for a Night Watch member to engage in.  Jon was wrong and you know it.

[Bowen Marsh]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not at all. I'm saying exactly what I said. That Jon made no attempt to steal Arya from Ramsay. That is not the same thing as not returning her to Ramsay once she has escaped. I think you would be hard pressed to prove treason & an act of war for Jon not returning Arya but since he doesn't have Arya anyway it's a moot point. 

 

I never know if you people are trolling or not when you get like this but on the off chance you aren't:

- Show me one quote proving Jon chose Mance for anything 

- What textual evidence do you have to suggest Jon would stop at nothing to get Arya? It's actually very obvious that his main concern is not Arya. 

- Give me some textual evidence Jon sent Mance anywhere

Seriously, this is silly. I imagine you will ignore my post much the same as anyone else I've asked for evidence to Jon's supposed crimes but just in case you don't I'll politely wait for those quotes 

Oh so did Jon execute Mance?  No he didn't.  Why? Because he needed the man's expert skills to fetch his sister.  Did Dolorous Edd just took it upon himself out of boredom to fetch the girls out of Mole's Town?  No he didn't.  He did it because Jon told him to.  There you have it.  Mance Rayder and those women were acting under Jon's orders. 

 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 12/1/2017 at 6:28 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well no. He didn't spare Mance, He didn't steal his sister from Ramsay, and being "about to" do something can't be a treason until he actually does it. 

Whether they plotted before hand or not assassinating your chief commander is a treason. Period. There is no way around it. Whether or not Jon committed a treason does not change the fact that Bowen Marsh & Co committed one. 

I agree. 

 

Yes. I never know if they are trolling or serious lol 

He didn't spare Mance!  Then why is Mance's head still on his shoulders.  Ofcourse he spared Mance.  Jon executed a sworn brother for a minor offense and not long after, he gives Mance the pass.  Mance served Jon's personal interests so Jon spared him.  Unethical behavior.  

Jon made his speech during the meeting.  Basically he admitted to treason.   Those wildlings were acting for Jon, serving Jon.  Their mission:  get Arya away from Ramsay.  That's an act of war.  It's an attack on House Bolton by Jon Snow.  Jon put Bowen Marsh into a terrible situation.  Jon had to be stopped and Bowen did what needed to be done.  Jon created this awful situation.

[Bowen Marsh]

Mance Rayder and the women with him put themselves in a lot of danger to get fArya out of Winterfell just because they wanted to be the story's version of good samaritans.  Not.  They did it because that was their orders from Jon.  Jon sent them on the mission to take Arya away from her husband. 

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Mance Rayder and the women with him put themselves in a lot of danger to get fArya out of Winterfell just because they wanted to be the story's version of good samaritans.  Not.  They did it because that was their orders from Jon.  Jon sent them on the mission to take Arya away from her husband. 

Really?  I thought this was something that Melisandre cooked up with Mance.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

"Your sister." Melisandre put her hand on his arm. "You cannot help her, but he can."

Snow wrenched his arm away. "I think not. You do not know this creature. Rattleshirt could wash his hands a hundred times a day and he'd still have blood beneath his nails. He'd be more like to rape and murder Arya than to save her. No. If this was what you have seen in your fires, my lady, you must have ashes in your eyes. If he tries to leave Castle Black without my leave, I'll take his head off myself."

He leaves me no choice. So be it. "Devan, leave us," she said, and the squire slipped away and closed the door behind him.

[The Commentator]

10 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Not at all. I'm saying exactly what I said. That Jon made no attempt to steal Arya from Ramsay. That is not the same thing as not returning her to Ramsay once she has escaped. I think you would be hard pressed to prove treason & an act of war for Jon not returning Arya but since he doesn't have Arya anyway it's a moot point. 

 

I never know if you people are trolling or not when you get like this but on the off chance you aren't:

- Show me one quote proving Jon chose Mance for anything 

- What textual evidence do you have to suggest Jon would stop at nothing to get Arya? It's actually very obvious that his main concern is not Arya. 

- Give me some textual evidence Jon sent Mance anywhere

Seriously, this is silly. I imagine you will ignore my post much the same as anyone else I've asked for evidence to Jon's supposed crimes but just in case you don't I'll politely wait for those quotes 

What do you think Jon was trying to do, borrow Arya from Ramsay and return her later?  Absolutely clear Jon wanted to take Arya from the Boltons.  That was his intent all along and that's what he sent the slick operator Mance to do.  And by the way, Jon knows the story of Bael the Bard and it is likely that Jon was part of the planning for the infiltration of the Bolton household.  Jon was in the wrong.  There's no defense for Jon.  

[The Commentator]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Really?  I thought this was something that Melisandre cooked up with Mance.

The idea came from Mel but the decision was Jon's.  Jon decided to let a known criminal like Mance to live and sent him to go bring his sister to him.  Jon could have said "No, this is illegal. Mance should be executed.  Arya is no longer my concern.  What happens to her doesn't matter".  Jon didn't.  He took ownership of the plan and sent the wildlings to do his dirty work for him.  The plan had Jon's full support and that is being kind.  Actually, Jon was the mission commander.  The wildlings were acting under his command.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Good God!  Jon is guilty of treason.  Even if I give Jon a benefit of the doubt the size of the Wall and say he only sent Mance to rescue Arya from the snow.  Was Mance instructed to take Arya back to Winterfell?  No, he was not.  He was to take Arya to Jon.  That  is treason.  We both know Jon's intentions were more egregious than that.  He meant to take Arya away from Ramsay, no matter the consequences and get her away from her husband.  Now, mind you, all that business should not even concern him at this point.  He should forget about Arya and leave her be to whatever fate may happen to her.  He has bigger concerns and to stick his nose in Roose and Ramsay Bolton's affairs is forbidden and illegal for a Night Watch member to engage in.  Jon was wrong and you know it.

Jon didn't send Mance, Mel did as you are well aware. Jon is under no obligation to return Ramsay's lost wife to him so how in the world could it be treason not to? That is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. Listen to how that sounds: I, Jon Snow, Lord Commander of the Nights Watch, am going to send a man to capture my fleeing sister & return her to her murderous husband because...." I can't even think of a reason to make up that doesn't sound ridiculous.

Does Jon care about the well being of Arya? Sure. Does he even remotely think about sending someone to steal Arya from Ramsay upon hearing she was married to him? Or ever? Even one time? Nope. He doesn't. Your accusations are unfounded & unreasonable. He has been focused on what he should be focused on: The long night gathering. 

12 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Oh so did Jon execute Mance?  No he didn't.  Why? Because he needed the man's expert skills to fetch his sister.  Did Dolorous Edd just took it upon himself out of boredom to fetch the girls out of Mole's Town?  No he didn't.  He did it because Jon told him to.  There you have it.  Mance Rayder and those women were acting under Jon's orders. 

 

 

LMAO! Still no quotes proving your nonsense. Actually Jon did execute Mance Rayder when it was in his power to do so. If he so needed Mance's expert skills to infiltrate WF why put an arrow through him? By the time Jon figures out Mance is actually alive he has no power to execute Stan's prisoner. If Mance was acting under Jon's orders give me just one little quote of Jon giving him orders to do what he did. I'll wait. Shouldn't be hard since orchestrated & commanded the whole operation right? 

 

2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

What do you think Jon was trying to do, borrow Arya from Ramsay and return her later?  Absolutely clear Jon wanted to take Arya from the Boltons.  That was his intent all along and that's what he sent the slick operator Mance to do.  And by the way, Jon knows the story of Bael the Bard and it is likely that Jon was part of the planning for the infiltration of the Bolton household.  Jon was in the wrong.  There's no defense for Jon.  

I'm not sure what plans Jon had for Arya. I would assume he had no plans for her considering we have his POV & he never thinks of any plans for Arya. I would guarantee he didn't plan on sending her back to Ramsay & why should he? He is not duty bound to collect Ramsay's lost things & return them. If it is so abundantly clear Jon wanted to take Arya from the Bolton's show me a quote where he commands Arya be taken from the Bolton's or where he plans to take Arya from the Bolton's or where he has any one damn thing to do with Arya leaving the Bolton's. If it was his intent all along why did he not start intending it when Arya was married to Ramsay? I'll tell you why: because it was not his intent. He does not behead the people going to rescue his sister from the snow but that is it.

Oh ok because Jon knew the story of Bael it was likely he was part of the planning to infiltrate WF all along huh? That's a rather hard thing to prove considering we have Jon's POV and KNOW BEYOND A SHADOW OF ANY DOUBT HE WAS NOT. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He didn't spare Mance!  Then why is Mance's head still on his shoulders.  Ofcourse he spared Mance.  Jon executed a sworn brother for a minor offense and not long after, he gives Mance the pass.  Mance served Jon's personal interests so Jon spared him.  Unethical behavior.  

Jon made his speech during the meeting.  Basically he admitted to treason.   Those wildlings were acting for Jon, serving Jon.  Their mission:  get Arya away from Ramsay.  That's an act of war.  It's an attack on House Bolton by Jon Snow.  Jon put Bowen Marsh into a terrible situation.  Jon had to be stopped and Bowen did what needed to be done.  Jon created this awful situation.

Jon killed who he thought to be Mance. When he figures out it wasn't Mance, he has no power to execute him. He is the Kings prisoner. Melisandre with or without the approval of Stannis spared Mance. That's absolutely clear in the text. 

How & why in the world would Jon make a speech to the wildlings persuading them to get Arya away from Ramsay when Jon & every one who heard the contents of the RL know ARYA IS NO LONGER WITH RAMSAY!!!!

Also how does Jon persuade said wildlings to get Arya from Ramsay in his rallying speech without ever mentioning to the wildlings to get Arya from Ramsay?? 

What awful situation did Jon create please tell me? The awful situation of surviving the wildling attack? Or the awful situation of having the wall manned better than it has been in years? Or the awful situation of bringing the wildlings over to their cause & thus making a friend of an enemy? I know! It's the awful situation of stealing poor Ramsay Bolton's wife & thus ruining the NW right? You people are absurd. 

[Clegane'sPup]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar  All a person can do is keep pointing out that fArya is not at WF and that LC Snow does not have her.       The rest of the post is not directed to you. It’s merely me yapping about the overall discussion.

 

There is probably a chunk of information that the reader has not yet been privy to yet. An example would be the Theon chapter that was moved from DwD to WoW. The Theon chapter reveals that Stannis has Theon & fArya in his procession.

Yes, LC Snow should have taken Mance into custody as a deserter when Mel revealed the Mance Rattleshirt glamor. Except Martin decided that Mance would go to WF.

If LC Snow committed an act of treason it would for aiding Stannis. The seat of power in Westeros is the person sitting the Iron Throne in Kings Landing. Stannis is an enemy of the Throne which is under control of the Lannister’s under the guise that Robert’s children are his true children, his blood.

Yes, Jon spared Mance. Jon broke a rule not a decree. Jon did not send Mance and the women to WF. He sent them to intercept a girl on a horse fleeing from her marriage.  Meaning that the girl was on the run.

Remember that the wedding invitation stated the wedding was to take place at Barrowton. Roose decided to move the wedding to WF. Mance and the women showed up at WF after the Bolton entourage had settled in.

Throw the pink/bastard letter into the mix and my mind explodes. Or is that implodes?

LC Snow broke a rule by not taking Mance into custody.

Treason would his assisting Stannis.

The letter told Jon that Arya was not at WF. Jon did not decide to go to WF for Arya. My opinion is that Jon decided to ride to WF with the wildlings to protect what is left of the NW. The wildlings decided to help Jon because the Bolton’s are holding Mance. Surprise, their leader is alive and now being held in a cage at WF.

That letter says Stannis is dead. Arya is missing, therefore she is not at WF. Jon’s plan was to fight the Warden of the North who was appointed by the Crown (Lannister’s) which could be considered treason. BUT, because LC Snow decided to move the fight to WF without the help of the NW it would leave the NW out of harms way should Bolton indeed carry through on their threat to attack him and the Watch.

I firmly believe Marsh is not the brains behind the mutiny and assassination attempt of LC Snow.

Jon made the decision to ride to WF after reading the pink/bastard letter. He could not meet the demands. He does not have Ramsey’s wife (a fraud set in place by Lannister) nor does he have Reek. He may not even know Reek is Theon.

The mutiny and assassination attempt have nothing to do with Arya/Jeyne.  It has to do with a group of men thinking that LC Snow is committing an act of treason against the Iron Throne by involving the NW in the matters of the realm. Firstly by granting Stannis sanctuary, then by allowing the wildlings through the Wall and then his intent to fight the Warden of the North.

I don’t know how Martin is going to resolve this part of the story.

Stannis was the only one who showed up when the NW sent letters that they were under attack by the wildlings. Stannis showed up before Jon was elected LC. The NW needed a new lord commander because Mormont was killed by his men.

Stannis plans on purging WF if Bolton’s & Freys. After that he plans on returning to the Wall to set up his seat at the Nightfort. If that happens it will be the northmen, Stannis, the wildlings and what is left of the NW that try to protect the realm from the Others, the wights and this mysterious Great Other.

Depending on the outcome of the many variables it looks like there are going to be three leaders --- LC Snow, Mance and Stannis, or not ---- facing off with the Others.

 

 

[Tagganaro]

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

What do you think Jon was trying to do, borrow Arya from Ramsay and return her later?  Absolutely clear Jon wanted to take Arya from the Boltons.  That was his intent all along and that's what he sent the slick operator Mance to do.  And by the way, Jon knows the story of Bael the Bard and it is likely that Jon was part of the planning for the infiltration of the Bolton household.  Jon was in the wrong.  There's no defense for Jon.  

I know you're just trolling but you should probably read the books before talking.  We have Jon's POV- he knows nothing about the plot in WF and wonders numerous times where Mance is and what Melisandre is up to.  When Alys Karstark shows up, Jon thinks to himself:

Quote

A grey girl on a dying horse.  Melisandre's fires had not lied, it would seem.  But what had become of Mance Rayder and his spearwives...What game are you playing priestess?  Did you have some other task for Mance.

Later on Jon thinks:

Quote

Mance Rayder and his spearwives had not returned, and Jon could not help but wonder whether the red woman had lied of a purpose.  Is she playing her own game?

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar  All a person can do is keep pointing out that fArya is not at WF and that LC Snow does not have her.       The rest of the post is not directed to you. It’s merely me yapping about the overall discussion

 

Agreed. I find myself sounding as if I believe Jon to be a perfect person & LC who never made any questionable or wrong decisions & I don't believe that at all. I don't understand why the things he actually did that were questionable &/or wrong either morally or legally don't get discussed & all the craziness does. 

I do agree the right thing according to the NW would have been to take Mance into custody & execute him for desertion among his other crimes against the NW but I understand why he didn't. Doesn't make it right but I get it & from a moral standpoint I think it was the right decision. From a legal/duty standpoint it was not. 

The treason was assisting Stannis like you said. It was a slippery slope Jon started on because of Stannis helping the NW & he slides down it quickly. 

And yes! Damn that PL. It is mind boggling. Out of curiosity who do you think wrote it? I've seen quite a few good theories & it seems there are so many likely candidates. 

[Tagganaro]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. I find myself sounding as if I believe Jon to be a perfect person & LC who never made any questionable or wrong decisions & I don't believe that at all. I don't understand why the things he actually did that were questionable &/or wrong either morally or legally don't get discussed & all the craziness does. 

I do agree the right thing according to the NW would have been to take Mance into custody & execute him for desertion among his other crimes against the NW but I understand why he didn't. Doesn't make it right but I get it & from a moral standpoint I think it was the right decision. From a legal/duty standpoint it was not. 

Jon himself regrets not taking Mance into custody or killing him there.  It was clearly a mistake to loose him on the North and it's somewhat unclear what exactly Jon was expecting Mance would do with the spearwives.  It's intimated that he allows Mance to take the spearwives because he believes that they will help Mance gain Arya's trust.  I suppose that makes sense if you really think about it- Mance on his own trying to "pick up" Arya and return her to her brother would at the very least be borderline creepy if you're Arya.  

That being said, Mance openly says in front of Jon that he needs the spearwives to carry out a "certain ploy." I find the exchange very interesting:

Quote

 

The wildling turned to Melisandre.  "I will need horses.  Half a dozen good ones.  And this is nothing I can do alone.  Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve.  Women would be best for this.  The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind."

"What is he talking about?" Lord Snow asked her.

"Your sister." Melisandre put her hand on his arm.  "You cannot help her but he can."

 

There is absolutely no follow up ever from Jon.  Mel reveals Mance right after this when Jon refuses because he believes Mel is sending Rattleshirt.  I'm not sure Jon ever thinks back to Mance openly admitting he has a ploy in mind, and I'm not sure we as readers think about this facet of the story enough...That is to say that Mance is openly telling us the readers, before he has any idea that Arya isn't at Long Lake, that he intends to use the spearwives to some purpose that is unrelated to rescuing Arya.  As has been speculated multiple times, I do think Mance wants something inside the crypts.

Quote

 

The treason was assisting Stannis like you said. It was a slippery slope Jon started on because of Stannis helping the NW & he slides down it quickly. 

And yes! Damn that PL. It is mind boggling. Out of curiosity who do you think wrote it? I've seen quite a few good theories & it seems there are so many likely candidates. 

 

Personally, I think Jon helping Stannis is not remotely treasonous as it relates to the NW's purpose.  On the one hand, Jon has Stannis, the guy who saved the NW from the wildlings, and understands and is committed to defeating the threat of the Others.  On the other, Jon has the Boltons, stooges of the Lannisters and a crown that could care less about the NW and the threat of the Others.  I think it would be malpractice for Jon to not help Stannis as much as he can.

I love speculating on who wrote the PL.  I'm definitely partial to the idea that Mance is somewhat involved- the language used of calling the NW "crows" and continuing to needle Jon over his status as a bastard is pure Mance.  Plus, the inclusion of asking for Val and Monster in the PL is somewhat suspicious as far as Ramsay wanting them goes...Ramsay really doesn't have any use for them, but Mance certainly does.  Perhaps the PL is the "ploy" Mance had in mind?  To take away Mel and Stannis's leverage over him?

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I love speculating on who wrote the PL.  I'm definitely partial to the idea that Mance is somewhat involved- the language used of calling the NW "crows" and continuing to needle Jon over his status as a bastard is pure Mance.  Plus, the inclusion of asking for Val and Monster in the PL is somewhat suspicious as far as Ramsay wanting them goes...Ramsay really doesn't have any use for them, but Mance certainly does.  Perhaps the PL is the "ploy" Mance had in mind?  To take away Mel and Stannis's leverage over him?

Oh I agree.  The PL is fascinating speculation especially the 'ploy' Mance has in mind and I wonder if this isn't akin to Jon's ploy of 'joining the enemy camp'.   I have no trouble thinking that Mance had a hand in the PL because of the language used.  Or that the the ploy involves bringing the wildlings to Winterfell giving Mance the upper hand over Ramsey.  That would certainly put Stannis in Mance's debt.  

[The Fattest Leech]

 

10 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I love speculating on who wrote the PL.  I'm definitely partial to the idea that Mance is somewhat involved- the language used of calling the NW "crows" and continuing to needle Jon over his status as a bastard is pure Mance.  Plus, the inclusion of asking for Val and Monster in the PL is somewhat suspicious as far as Ramsay wanting them goes...Ramsay really doesn't have any use for them, but Mance certainly does.  Perhaps the PL is the "ploy" Mance had in mind?  To take away Mel and Stannis's leverage over him?

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh I agree.  The PL is fascinating speculation especially the 'ploy' Mance has in mind and I wonder if this isn't akin to Jon's ploy of 'joining the enemy camp'.   I have no trouble thinking that Mance had a hand in the PL because of the language used.  Or that the the ploy involves bringing the wildlings to Winterfell giving Mance the upper hand over Ramsey.  That would certainly put Stannis in Mance's debt.  

Ooooh, the pink letter

There is a lot to be taken into consideration when it comes to the mutiny at Castle Black. This pink letter, its author, the apparent tampering with before hand, the intent, all of it is nothing to be overlooked. So juicy! Between this and Melisandre's intentions with Jon, I think what we have at the end of ADWD is just a third of the story.

[Clegane'sPup]

14 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

And yes! Damn that PL. It is mind boggling. Out of curiosity who do you think wrote it? I've seen quite a few good theories & it seems there are so many likely candidates. 

The last re-read I did was back in 2015. I read the entire five books cover to cover in preparation for a hopeful WoW release in 2016. I say that to let you know that sometimes my memory needs to be jogged. There are a lot of interwoven story lines in this saga.

The only thing I can comfortably say about that dastardly pink/bastard letter is that I think it was tampered with in some way. The major thing that sticks out in my mind is the line toward the end of the letter.     DwD Jon XIII    “Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.”   I can’t put my finger on why that bothers me except that to my way of thinking it is something a wildling would say.

Back in 2014 a poster brought all four letters together. I’ll leave the link below. The poster put the letters in individual reveal tags and then gave a short synopsis after each letter. I found it to be an interesting read and discussion. Well worth my time.

 

@Tagganaro just wanted to say I enjoyed reading your perspective.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Back in 2014 a poster brought all four letters together. I’ll leave the link below. The poster put the letters in individual reveal tags and then gave a short synopsis after each letter. I found it to be an interesting read and discussion. Well worth my time.

Thanks for the link. The OP makes some interesting observations & leaves much to be discussed. I haven't read all of the discussion yet but I do wish we were discussing it rather than reading others discussing it lol

[Clegane'sPup]

35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Thanks for the link. The OP makes some interesting observations & leaves much to be discussed. I haven't read all of the discussion yet but I do wish we were discussing it rather than reading others discussing it lol

How does a person bring back a poster‘s 2014 work and give them the credit for a job well done?

 

[the trees have eyes]

On 05/12/2017 at 7:11 PM, Tagganaro said:

I know you're just trolling but you should probably read the books before talking.  We have Jon's POV- he knows nothing about the plot in WF and wonders numerous times where Mance is and what Melisandre is up to.  When Alys Karstark shows up, Jon thinks to himself:

Later on Jon thinks:

 

Indeed.  But fact checking is as welcome in a thread like this as after a Donald Trump twitterstorm.  Kudos for patiently relying on the books, reason and logic but that is no match for emotion and the obstinate desire to stand one's ground come what may.  I am curious as to whether these kind of threads will continue after TWOW.  The head says they shouldn't but the gut says they will.