Richard Hoffman

“For the watch”

401 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

First and foremost, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to all the people who come to this site to tangle with the colossus that is ASoIaF and want to especially thank this thread for stretching my understanding in so many ways. I honestly believe it has changed and expanded my efforts in ways that I never expected and appreciate the encouragement and affirmation for my efforts as well as the criticism and denials. I also feel like I should freely and unabashedly admit Jon Snow is my favorite character and will probably always be, up to and until the last page of ADoS passes before my eyes and into my heart and soul, gods willing. I love other characters wholeheartedly too, but Jon was my most immediate and visceral portal into the squalor and splendor that is Westeros. I was a 14 year old boy getting drunk with the other riff raff at the lower tables once too and more times than not woke up the next day with a headache and a dog eared copy of some sci fi or fantasy classic. Times change but men do not, unless they choose to do so. I mentioned on another thread I picked up a copy of AGoT on a whim one day while grocery shopping because there was buzz about the other version and I was curious. I hadn't read a fantasy novel in more years than I will admit and feel blessed that I returned to where I began. It sat on my table for a month. I picked it up a handful of times and thought, "What are wildlings? What is an Other? Why do they always mix real names with made up ones?" But after a few attempts, I was in the flow with really no other preconceived notions except I knew there were dragons and my brother told me the other version had lots of sex and nudity. Two things I happen to enjoy. That got me as far as AGoT, Bran 1 and as they say, the rest is history and mythology and mystery and magic and violence and hate and war and religion and politics and love and the promise of peace... well you've all read the books, but Jon was the one who I needed to seal to the deal for me. "Many roads lead to the same castle." I even went to my local bookstore for ADWD and was surprised when the clerk brought out a hardcover and even more surprised to find out the series wasn't even finished! All of this is to say, I feel I was fortunate to get my first full read without any real outside input except what GRRM put down on the pages, because I was able to transport myself back to that 14 year old sense of wonder and imagination and at this point in my life, trust me, that is a rare and precious thing. I won't experience the final two books in the same manner, except that I have faith GRRM will surprise and baffle and delight me in ways I haven't guessed. Now I came to this site and other sites because I wanted to learn what the group mind had to offer and be open to new ways of looking at the novels and have been astonished at times, how much it has increased my appreciation and awareness and sometimes it comes from unexpected places. But openness was my vow. It's not just an intellectual puzzle. If it upsets me, I try to ask myself why. Sometimes Patchface knows more than Tyrion, and Mully more than Jon, but always and I mean always, listen to your Direwolf!
I promised a few weeks ago to visit The Garden of Gethsemarsh and I meant it, but first I needed to take some time to reflect on what I should say and how and what the power of a moment of clarity holds. I also want to thank kissedbyfire for her graceful generosity and dedication to these books and this site as, I think, 10,000 plus posts and counting attests and her uncanny ability to drop nuggets of gold into the middle of any discussion and for dropping the perfect quote for me personally when I needed it, proving words matter and miracles happen. I bend a knee. I also want to thank Widowmaker 811 for "snarling in the midst of all" because he helped me look deeper and maybe I wouldn't have otherwise. I extend a hand. Mysteries great and small are what I believe the master is asking us to look at and he's given us clues great and small from his first word but: What is an Other?, I believe is the biggest of them all, followed by a number of others including: What do Dragons know? Why is the Sphinx the Riddle? Where do Whores go? GRRM is truly a master and I owe him a debt of gratitude I will never be able to pay directly, for the Song he has brought us, but even if I had the chance to kneel and pledge, I know beyond the Shadow of Asshai, he would snort like an Old Bear and tell me to put my sword on, because I'm going to need it.
So, all that being said, I would like to say a few things and drop a few quotes to hopefully further this discussion. I've been asserting the idea that Jon assumed a ruling authority when he became Lord Commander that was akin to a king within the boundaries of the Wall but maybe it's more helpful to think of it more like the authority that Doran holds in Dorne. We know the title of the Prince of Dorne is largely ceremonial and ruling authority similar to that of a Lord in any of the other Kingdoms but again I think GRRM purposefully leaves some of the legal distinctions vague and why he may have done so, was to set up a contrasting parallel between Doran in the South and Jon in the North, much the way I read somewhere that he wanted to do between Cersei and Daenarys. I don't have the SSM but believe it was one of the harder decisions for him when he split AFfC and ADwD to not be able to have us read them together and I think he wanted us to do the same with Jon and Doran. One of the reasons, I think, is about temperament and decision making in both cases and it's a really crafty one. Doran sits and thinks and broods and never seems to act, whereas Jon moves constantly, trains constantly and makes loads of decisions and commands as he deems necessary. One is plotting at a glacial pace and one is forging ahead and they are both worried about where those plans are headed, what might happen to foil them and especially worried about what has or may happen to someone they love; Quentyn and Arya. Someone up thread and I wish I could find it, mentioned the pacing of Jon's final chapter and how he felt it almost seemed rushed to the printing press and it reminded me of some of my feelings of frustration reading Jon's chapters, most notably the chapters revolving around his plans for letting the wildlings through the Wall and how dense Bowen and Yarwyck seem to be. I believe it's intentional on GRRM's part and a sublime use of the POV technique. I think a careful analysis of Jon's thoughts and his feelings throughout ASoIaF are very illuminating, but it seems to me it gets ramped up significantly by Jon Chapter 13. I think GRRM wants us to feel Jon's frustration and he wants us to look at why and what the reasons are for that frustration, but I think most importantly he wants us to feel it. I believe the same of Doran, but this is a thread for the Watch. I hope to find time in the future to do an AFfDwD reading because I wonder if it adds insight.


 This one in particular has stuck with me from my first reading and I'm glad it did because I picked up my book and looked to see what I could find and it helped me pick up on a few others that I think are crucial to a better glimpse into unraveling what happens in Jon Chapter 13.


 
Probably the hardest, coldest, but most prudent message Jon needs to hear, from one of the worst possible candidates to tell him and later it's reiterated by Melisandre. We know Hardhome is probably a lost cause because we have more information available to us than Jon does, but even without the full picture, the message is most likely true. He can't save them. He doesn't have the men or resources to do so and his mind seems to get more and more focused on it and in some ways, blind to the bigger picture around him. It's a noble and even practical desire to a certain extent, but probably in vain regardless. The thing that finally dawned on me though was his emotional state. He is worried he can't convince enough people and scared he might be wrong and then angry to the point of projecting what the answer will be and when he gets what he feared, the disappointment cuts even harder than he expected. The queen kisses her child and he judges the way she does it. Now I would suggest a reread and note that Selyse gives as good as she gets, but it's Jon's POV for a reason. I think this next passage is interesting too.


 
Sarcasm mixed a bit with scorn from Jon, he has little respect for her viewpoint, as he recognizes the ignorance contained in it and is, I believe, angry he has to defer to her in her rank as Queen. He also recognizes her scorn directed at him and his viewpoints.  When he persists despite all that, he  gets a brusque dismissal. Interestingly too, this exchange also comes on the heels of a joke from Patchface (which I believe hints at Jon's resurrection) and Jon is "less amused" than the assembled Queen's Men and I think he feels thay are mocking him and his efforts.
 

He leaves in a rush and encounters Melisandre. Again his thoughts are turn to sarcasm with the mention of "murderous wildlings" and anger at the Queen's ignorance, but then he adopts the Queen's dismissive tone with Melisandre. "I think not." "I have duties." The isolation of his command and the adoption of an imperious tone. He believes Mel has power and wants to believe it will help him, but he dismisses her as being below him in the ranking. They argue somewhat  about the validity and value of her help and I think as a result he misses her most crucial counsel, "Where is your direwolf?" Jon has isolated himself from his best friends and most ardent supporters but most critically has shut himself off from his most potent power, the direwolf, which I believe is a totemic connection to the will and power of the gods.


 
Melisandre admits she is imperfect and Jon concludes that only a fool would believe her, so even though he knows she has power, he almost seems to label himself a fool, as he is running out of hope and he rejects her counsel. The clincher for me in this passage too, is his thought "Where is my sister?" He is immersed in feelings of anger and frustration at what he believes to be the potential unraveling of his plans and his best work as LC, but his mind goes to his most personal  and perhaps, worst fear; Arya's death or maybe even fate worse than death.  After leaving Melisandre he engages Leathers in another discussion of the logistics of the Hardhome mission. Interpersed with the dialogue are Jon's thoughts and doubts. Leathers is a fine swordsman and able Master at Arms but he is probably not the wisest adviser. Then the pivotal confrontation with Ghost.

This passage always struck me because Ghost is oviously agitated but most tellingly he is angry with Jon too and I believe it's because Ghost is trying to tell Jon exactly what Jon tells Ghost: Easy. Stop running. Sit down. Think this through. Listen to your heart. Use the power the gods have given you! I also love that Mormon't raven, another totemic vessel is agitated as well and screaming his name, but Jon can't hear the warnings or doesn't know how to listen. He is locked into his frantically searching mind. Jon resolves to blame the boar ( who I believe plays a part in the overall tapestry of ASoIaF, as Robert was killed by a boar, but that's for another thread) and it echoes the same rationale he gave to Melisandre earlier when they discuss Ghost. I think it even reflects some of the same ignorance that Yarwyck displays in his observations of the boar army and his ignorance of skinchanging. Jon has the power but he resists using it out of fear of how he would be perceived and also because of a lack of knowledge. Then enter Bowen and Yarwyck. I won't pull a lot of quotes because I think we all have a good understanding of the conflicts and tensions between Jon and Marsh, in particular, but also with Jon and other members of the Watch. Jon believes what he is doing with regards to the wildlings is in everyones best interest and I think it is too, but  his hardest task is teaching and enlightening his Sworn Brothers. It is easier to convince the wildlings to trust him, even with the hostages, I believe, because Jon's truce gives them hope. The doubting brothers of the Watch, however, are less faithful. Many are riddled with fear and doubt and prejudice and some, like Bowen worry that Jon't methods will get them all killed. So, after the final argument with them we get another passage that I find pivotal.
 

Jon reiterates his desire for real help and real counsel but I think from the viewpoint that though, they both "were no lickspittles," the are "seldom any help either." He's beyond tired of fighting with their prejudices and fears and ignorance. He's reached a point of despair coupled with excessive pride. Jon has lost hope. He believes his worst fears will come true. Bowen for his part reminds Jon of his personal wounds but also his utter antipathy for Jon's refusal to listen to him and I think, maybe also a recognition that sometimes Jon wants approval more than counsel. He wants them to tell him what he wants to hear, rather than maybe what he needs to hear. I think that  the hard truth is that despite Jon's best intentions and courage and wisdom and compassion and strength and learning, he can't possibly solve his dilemma and he can't save everyone. In fact, the gods aren't calling him to save everyone. They are calling him to lead and even though he does it better than anyone else the watch has to offer, he doubts his abilities and he fears the fruit his endeavors will bear.  If Jon had been able to set aside his stubborn pride and surrender to his faith, he would unlock the fullness of his potential and realize the power that is right in front of him and has been guiding him since chapter 1 of AgoT, and the final line of the paragraph would have read "What it had instead was me," and the recognition the gods have placed him there to take those lessons of the former leaders, honor his oath and lead the NW toward the fulfillment of their vows. Jon has transferred his inner crisis of doubt and his failure to recognize his truest strengths to his brothers inability to recognize the value of his efforts. Quite simply stated, I believe, Jon wants to be the Warrior but the gods are telling him he is called to be the Father. He wants to be a Lord Commander but the gods are telling him he is called to be a Prince and that is what lead me to the Garden of Gethsemarsh.
After the meeting with Bowen and Yarwyck, Jon moves quickly towards his reckoning but the warnings don't cease. He finds some solace in Tormund's company and the last gathering in his apartments. . He reminds himself of his desire to learn more about the wights and what to do about Cregan. All things that he knows are important to learn about and understand, but he's unable to shake the worry and the obsessive need to solve the dilemma of Hardhome. Mormont's raven urges him to eat and that subtle "Corn? Corn? Corn?" warning of where he is headed. Then the bombshell of the Pink Letter with one of my favorite serious jokes.

The seriousness of the letter is evident in Clydas' demeanor. Tormund is almost silenced (Har! Fer Once Almost) by the implication of gravity but Jon again resorts to sarcasm in the face of another unwanted intrusion on his overwrought plans. Mully then offers Jon maybe the last best bit of wisdom he will get before the reading of the letter and the events of the  Shieldhall and he dismisses it out of hand. Winter has arrived. Melisandre warned him it was close and his efforst were in vain. She told him to look to the skies and he sees that as the "Dark wings, dark words," of the letter but just prior to his Ghost confrontation he had gotten another sign from his gods.
 A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII
"He glanced up past the King's Tower. The Wall was a dull white, the sky above it whiter. A snow sky. "Just pray we do not get another storm."

I think it's a call to him to stay his course and use his power to cement the bond between the wildlings and the Watch and also a call to pray and ask for guidance before the full storm arrives. It reminds me of Melisandre seeing Snow in her fires, but Jon lacks the full awareness of faith he needs to recognize the signs. He doesn't yet recognize it's his power. The Wall is his wall. Snow is his element. He is the snow sky and the white is the light of truth. The power to unlock the mystery of the Other. But the Pink Letter, even with him and Toregg realizing it contains half truths and impossible demands, breaks most of the last strands of Jon's hope. It inflames his worst fears and feelings of guilt and the utter shock and despair and hopelessness of believing he has lost all of the people he holds most dear in his heart, excep, perhap, for one. The faint glimmer that Arya, his beacon of innocence and love may be alive. He makes the choice I would make and I believe most people would. We know it's a "fool's hope", but Jon doesn't. He clings to it like it's a fading ember and all his other worries recede. He puts Hardhome and the potential for all the dangers around him aside and focuses on the most personal and poignant of his fears and I think resolves to take the power of the wildlings as his own and many of them readily agree to follow him. He chooses to be the Warrior, but again, I believe the gods want him for another purpose.

I have much and more to say on this but am still working on the Shieldhall and assassination scenes. I hope it speaks to some and hope my delay in getting this down hasn't atrophied this thread to the point of no return. It's a great topic.

This is wonderful sir. Very insightful & beautifully written. You seem to have picked the perfect screen name. Posts like these are my favorite thing about this forum. I look forward to reading whatever more you have to say. 

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Thanks for responding divica. I was afraid this thread was maybe lost. I'm happy someone took the time to read my thoughts, as I know it is a somewhat long post and I still have a part two in progress, dealing with the Bowen and company but I think you hit the nail on the head when you say

2 hours ago, divica said:

because of fear.

I think a lot of what happens in ASoIaF(and planet Earth, for that matter) is a result of how people respond to the world around them based on feelings of fear. It can overwhelm our judgement, our senses and our values. Some fears are immediate and very real and some are distant and vague, but fear is a feeling and feelings are the tools we use to inform our judgement, senses and values and indeed our choices and in some situations it's excruciatingly hard to discern what we feel from what we know, especially when we truly recognize we don't know everything and need each other to come to truth. Now, I don't believe Jon hates Melisandre but he definitely mistrusts her intentions, methods and interpretation of her visions. He's correct in this assessment, but he also recognizes the value of her power and the benefit it could offer him and his efforts. What I have come to really appreciate about the "girl on the grey horse" vision is that it was true in it's prediction but off in it's interpretation. Both Jon and Melisandre want it to be Arya, for two different reasons and therefore believe it because they want to believe it. However, it's outcome in the fact that it is Alys and not Arya directly results in what I believe is and will continue to be shown to be one of Jon's best achievements. It wasn't his will or Melisandre's will that brought Alys to the Wall, but it was Jon's ability as a leader and his keen judgement of the situation, that saved a girl, not unlike Arya, from a horrible fate at the hands of her Uncles, who see her chiefly as a pawn in their game. He also pragmatically sealed an alliance with one of the chief leaders of the wildlings in Sigorn, a man who had no love or respect for Jon at all, due to the death of his father, Styr. Sigorn was probably not Alys first choice as a husband (she was even a little sweet on Jon initially) but by the end of the marriage ceremony seems relieved and a little hopeful and Sigorn seems shyly elated to me in his bride and willing to let go of his hostility to Jon. Jon had conflicting feelings and concerns but they didn't overwhelm him. He made a wise and constructive use of a misinterpreted vision's reality and let go of some of his fear of what trouble Sigorn could potentially cause, which was a vague threat to Jon's leadership not a direct one.

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6 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Thanks for responding divica. I was afraid this thread was maybe lost. I'm happy someone took the time to read my thoughts, as I know it is a somewhat long post and I still have a part two in progress, dealing with the Bowen and company but I think you hit the nail on the head when you say

I think a lot of what happens in ASoIaF(and planet Earth, for that matter) is a result of how people respond to the world around them based on feelings of fear. It can overwhelm our judgement, our senses and our values. Some fears are immediate and very real and some are distant and vague, but fear is a feeling and feelings are the tools we use to inform our judgement, senses and values and indeed our choices and in some situations it's excruciatingly hard to discern what we feel from what we know, especially when we truly recognize we don't know everything and need each other to come to truth. Now, I don't believe Jon hates Melisandre but he definitely mistrusts her intentions, methods and interpretation of her visions. He's correct in this assessment, but he also recognizes the value of her power and the benefit it could offer him and his efforts. What I have come to really appreciate about the "girl on the grey horse" vision is that it was true in it's prediction but off in it's interpretation. Both Jon and Melisandre want it to be Arya, for two different reasons and therefore believe it because they want to believe it. However, it's outcome in the fact that it is Alys and not Arya directly results in what I believe is and will continue to be shown to be one of Jon's best achievements. It wasn't his will or Melisandre's will that brought Alys to the Wall, but it was Jon's ability as a leader and his keen judgement of the situation, that saved a girl, not unlike Arya, from a horrible fate at the hands of her Uncles, who see her chiefly as a pawn in their game. He also pragmatically sealed an alliance with one of the chief leaders of the wildlings in Sigorn, a man who had no love or respect for Jon at all, due to the death of his father, Styr. Sigorn was probably not Alys first choice as a husband (she was even a little sweet on Jon initially) but by the end of the marriage ceremony seems relieved and a little hopeful and Sigorn seems shyly elated to me in his bride and willing to let go of his hostility to Jon. Jon had conflicting feelings and concerns but they didn't overwhelm him. He made a wise and constructive use of a misinterpreted vision's reality and let go of some of his fear of what trouble Sigorn could potentially cause, which was a vague threat to Jon's leadership not a direct one.

It is very interesting that one of jon's best decisions is also one of the decisions that ned (as someone that puts honnor and duty above all else) would never have done. 

Did you notice that whole scenario was jon's biggest direct interference in the politics of the north? He basically aranged a marriage, decided who would be the new karstark lord (if her older brother dies), informed stannis of a conspiracy against him and imprisioned a lord. People like to say jon broke his oaths when he sent mance after arya (which I disagree) but this instance is much worse and no one in the NW argued against it. 

In regards to mel, do you remembre what jon thinks when he finds the wildlings and wun wun starving? It was that mel will pay for what she has done. Even if by the end of dance jon doesn t hate her I think he highly dislikes her and thinks she is unreliable. And I think he is right to do so based on his interactions with her. 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is wonderful sir. Very insightful & beautifully written. You seem to have picked the perfect screen name. Posts like these are my favorite thing about this forum. I look forward to reading whatever more you have to say. 

Thank you Lyanna<Rhaegar. I appreciate the encouragement. I actually had to take a break from the forum for a few weeks to work this out, because I've been wrestling with it for quite awhile and really felt I had to get as much of it down as I could. A brief stretch of anxious insomnia helped with the searching and some insights but I realized writing it down was the best way to work it out. My screen name I thought would be a fitting tribute to my love of the raven/crow motif but also the Old Bear. I love that man. Plus Edgar Allen would have loved wights!

1 hour ago, divica said:

It is very interesting that one of jon's best decisions is also one of the decisions that ned (as someone that puts honnor and duty above all else) would never have done. 

Did you notice that whole scenario was jon's biggest direct interference in the politics of the north? He basically aranged a marriage, decided who would be the new karstark lord (if her older brother dies), informed stannis of a conspiracy against him and imprisioned a lord. People like to say jon broke his oaths when he sent mance after arya (which I disagree) but this instance is much worse and no one in the NW argued against it. 

In regards to mel, do you remembre what jon thinks when he finds the wildlings and wun wun starving? It was that mel will pay for what she has done. Even if by the end of dance jon doesn t hate her I think he highly dislikes her and thinks she is unreliable. And I think he is right to do so based on his interactions with her. 

I find that contrast to what Ned would have done very interesting too, divica. I think one of Jon's biggest struggles is how he views Ned and hoe he feels he might never be good enough to measure up to the standard of the Ned, but he recognizes in a number of passages that Ned was a man too and had his shortcomings and made mistakes also. It's part of the maturation process. Many of us fear we will become like our parents! Jon fears he never can. I did notice the political ramifications and have asserted in other posts on this thread I believe Jon had the political authority to do so, within the boundary of the Wall and Gift, I believe he has that authority.I also maintain he broke no oath or pledge in doing so, but of course, we know the Wall isn't as isolated as it once was, so there are reverberations. I just believe it was done in accordance with the gods and will bear more good than harm. I also believe he broke no oath in regards to Mance. It may have been a political mistake, in a sense, but again I think the gods have further use of Mance too and while short term it may have been a mistake, I think long term it will prove to have been for the best too. I kind of view his relationship with Melisandre as almost equal amounts attraction (beauty, power) and repulsion (deplorable methods, untrustworthy counsel) but I think her end will come from somewhere and someone else, probably through some of her own manipulations too. I'm glad GRRM included the Melisandre POV chapter though, because it humanized her more for me. I see her less as a shadowy witch and more as a woman who rose from slavery and became very powerful in ability and faithful to her cause but think she is also riddled with doubt and has a very narrow worldview. I think her intentions are noble but her methods fail to recognize the trail of tears she is sowing in her wake. She also asserts her absolute faith in R'hllor, but if the Lord of Light is all powerful and she is his best prophetess than why does she need Stannis?

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3 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Thank you Lyanna<Rhaegar. I appreciate the encouragement. I actually had to take a break from the forum for a few weeks to work this out, because I've been wrestling with it for quite awhile and really felt I had to get as much of it down as I could. A brief stretch of anxious insomnia helped with the searching and some insights but I realized writing it down was the best way to work it out. My screen name I thought would be a fitting tribute to my love of the raven/crow motif but also the Old Bear. I love that man. Plus Edgar Allen would have loved wights!

I find that contrast to what Ned would have done very interesting too, divica. I think one of Jon's biggest struggles is how he views Ned and hoe he feels he might never be good enough to measure up to the standard of the Ned, but he recognizes in a number of passages that Ned was a man too and had his shortcomings and made mistakes also. It's part of the maturation process. Many of us fear we will become like our parents! Jon fears he never can. I did notice the political ramifications and have asserted in other posts on this thread I believe Jon had the political authority to do so, within the boundary of the Wall and Gift, I believe he has that authority.I also maintain he broke no oath or pledge in doing so, but of course, we know the Wall isn't as isolated as it once was, so there are reverberations. I just believe it was done in accordance with the gods and will bear more good than harm. I also believe he broke no oath in regards to Mance. It may have been a political mistake, in a sense, but again I think the gods have further use of Mance too and while short term it may have been a mistake, I think long term it will prove to have been for the best too. I kind of view his relationship with Melisandre as almost equal amounts attraction (beauty, power) and repulsion (deplorable methods, untrustworthy counsel) but I think her end will come from somewhere and someone else, probably through some of her own manipulations too. I'm glad GRRM included the Melisandre POV chapter though, because it humanized her more for me. I see her less as a shadowy witch and more as a woman who rose from slavery and became very powerful in ability and faithful to her cause but think she is also riddled with doubt and has a very narrow worldview. I think her intentions are noble but her methods fail to recognize the trail of tears she is sowing in her wake. She also asserts her absolute faith in R'hllor, but if the Lord of Light is all powerful and she is his best prophetess than why does she need Stannis?

I'm sorry I know this wasn't directed at me but this comment had sparked my interest. So I would like to share my thoughts to what you have said and give my interpetation to Melisandre's relationship with the red God. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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48 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I'm sorry I know this wasn't directed at me but this comment had sparked my interest. So I would like to share my thoughts to what you have said and give my interpetation to Melisandre's relationship with the red God. 

Please do. I'm hoping to revive this thread as much as possible and others will benefit from the input too. I'm heading to bed but will look forward to reading your thoughts tomorrow.

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On 11/3/2017 at 6:27 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon was getting ready to commit an act of extreme treason in attacking the Boltons.  Marsh and the men of the watch had no choice except to stop him.  They had a moral responsibility and a legal responsibility to stop their crazy as a loon commander in any way they can.  Someone had to stop Jon from doing something sooo stupid and sooo very illegal.  It's not only because Jon had already committed a treason so serious that he already deserved to die but he was about to do something more awful.  A responsible commander of the watch does not start a war with the most powerful military force in the north when the goal is to stop the white walkers.  You make peace with the Boltons even it it meant sacrificing Arya's safety and happiness.  You make peace with the Boltons even if it meant making an acknowledgement that they are now the wardens of the north and the lead house in the north.  Jon was killed because he has gone off the deep end and the only way to keep him from making even bigger mess of things is to kill him.  Jon was acting like a rabid dog.

Yes.  Somebody had to stop him from his madness.  His raiding party to attack the Boltons is treason. Jon became a huge liability to the Nw when he made the decision to take his sister away from her husband, who just happened to be the son of the Lord Paramount and the new Warden of the North.  Jon interfered with the Bolton family.  He had no cause to do that.  He is expected to leave all of that behind when he took his vows and joined the Nw. 

On 11/5/2017 at 0:13 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

Dear Mr. Hoffman,

It is very kind of you to show interests in these matters.  It will be my pleasure to talk about what happened on that day when we had to execute Jon Snow.  After all, I am the only member of this forum who was present when it happened.  I was there at the meeting and heard Snow's revelations and intentions.  I was there when the execution took place.  Know that these words are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

It was never my intentions to punish Jon for his treason though he deserved an execution for those crimes.  The assassination was a desperate act.  My brothers and myself had no choice.  It was our responsibility to prevent our mad commander from committing an act so unspeakably vile.  He put together an army of wildlings for the purpose of attacking Lord Ramsay Bolton, the heir to the warden of the North.  This is an unprecedented act of aggression.  At no point in our long history has a sitting lord commander ever did anything so illegal as to attack the citizens that we are supposed to be protecting.  This is a clear violation of our oaths and vows.   Even the ancient Night's King drew the line at attacking the people of the north.

What Jon has been doing to get his sister away from Lord Ramsay was already an act of war.  Wildlings acting under Jon's orders went to Winterfell under the guise of friendship and murdered the servants of Lord Roose.  A violation of guest rights by even liberal standards.  He deserved to be removed from his office for this act alone and given an appointment with the chopping block.

Jon planned to further aggravate an already tense situation by making a direct assault on Lord Ramsay and his men.  It was our duty to prevent this atrocity from happening.  Jon was beyond reason by this time and his behavior in the past is an indication that he never valued our counsel nor took our concerns to heart.  Execution was the only way to stop him.

Neither I nor the brave men who followed me were warged nor under the influence of another.  What we did we did of our own free will and out of love and loyalty to the kingdom of Westeros and the watch.  It was a hard decision and one that we did not take pleasure in.  Jon just put us in a difficult situation.  Any blame should rest on his shoulders.  This is all his fault. 

I am proud of the men who helped me take down Jon Snow.  They are all men of honor who risked their lives to prevent war between our former lord commander and the Boltons.  We should make common cause and build an alliance with the warden of the north instead of trying to steal away the bride of his son.  Killing people we are supposed to protect is conduct that is not acceptable for a lord commander of the night's watch.  Our lives are fair trade to stop someone like that and take him down.

I do not have an explanation for Jon's inability to pull his sword out from its scabbard.  Perhaps we took him by surprise and maybe the ice had something to do with it.  Water on the blade will freeze and turn to ice causing a bind between metal and leather.  Perhaps the Gods are punishing him for the unjust execution of our sworn brother, Janos Slynt, and they caused the blade to bind. 

 

For the Watch - Bowen Marsh

:D 

Great!

 

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4 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Yes.  Somebody had to stop him from his madness.  His raiding party to attack the Boltons is treason. Jon became a huge liability to the Nw when he made the decision to take his sister away from her husband, who just happened to be the son of the Lord Paramount and the new Warden of the North.  Jon interfered with the Bolton family.  He had no cause to do that.  He is expected to leave all of that behind when he took his vows and joined the Nw. 

You should really read the thread before you post. At any rate welcome to the forums & happy posting. 

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42 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Yes.  Somebody had to stop him from his madness.  His raiding party to attack the Boltons is treason. Jon became a huge liability to the Nw when he made the decision to take his sister away from her husband, who just happened to be the son of the Lord Paramount and the new Warden of the North.  Jon interfered with the Bolton family.  He had no cause to do that.  He is expected to leave all of that behind when he took his vows and joined the Nw. 

:D 

Great!

 

The hate is strong in you young padwan. There are plenty of replies explaining that he didn t do what you said. You could at least acuse him of things he did do so that we could have a discussion...

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5 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Yes.  Somebody had to stop him from his madness.  His raiding party to attack the Boltons is treason. Jon became a huge liability to the Nw when he made the decision to take his sister away from her husband, who just happened to be the son of the Lord Paramount and the new Warden of the North.  Jon interfered with the Bolton family.  He had no cause to do that.  He is expected to leave all of that behind when he took his vows and joined the Nw. 

:D 

Great!

 

And was going to lead a wildling horde to try and take WF-which was basically a glorified suicide mission that would have justified the Boltons wiping the watch clear off the map(along with the wildling refugees being held on NW land) and erase any chance of getting the north prepared for the others-if the Boltons were coming not much Jon could do other than kill himself (if offering up Shireen, Melisandre, and the queens' party fails) and show the ice-zombie they have kicking around and pray Ramsey relays his findings to his father. Jon sadly was acting selfishly and was going to doom the watch. 

I'm Sorry but you're wrong about Jon. Other posters on this thread have said so making you wrong by default-kidding. If you feel Jon had sent Mance with the aim of stealing Arya please try to make your case.  I found the arguements against to be-unsatisfactory

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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13 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

And was going to lead a wildling horde to try and take WF-which was basically a glorified suicide mission that would have justified the Boltons wiping the watch clear off the map(along with the wildling refugees being held on NW land) and erase any chance of getting the north prepared for the others-if the Boltons were coming not much Jon could do other than kill himself (if offering up Shireen, Melisandre, and the queens' party fails) and show the ice-zombie they have kicking around and pray Ramsey relays his findings to his father. Jon sadly was acting selfishly and was going to doom the watch. 

I'm Sorry but you're wrong about Jon. Other posters on this thread have said so making you wrong by default-kidding. If you feel Jon had sent Mance with the aim of stealing Arya please try to make your case.  I found the arguements against to be-unsatisfactory

I completly agree that bowen and co attacked jon because they thought that his attack was doomed and the boltons then would attack the watch.

But acting selfish? The NW doesn t take sides. He can t order his men to capture stannis familly and deliver them to the boltons. THAT is completly wrong in every possible way. In adition he doesn t have the other people ramsay wants. So, is the attack a good idea? NO! Does jon have any other choice? If he wants to keep the watch honest and unalligned to the boltons he can t do anything else... Then the book jon isn t suicidal... He probably had some plan!

But I am happy that you agree that Jon was attacked because bowen and co. were afraid to suffer an attack from the boltons instead of some honorable reason.

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5 minutes ago, divica said:

I completly agree that bowen and co attacked jon because they thought that his attack was doomed and the boltons then would attack the watch.

But acting selfish? The NW doesn t take sides. He can t order his men to capture stannis familly and deliver them to the boltons. THAT is completly wrong in every possible way. In adition he doesn t have the other people ramsay wants. So, is the attack a good idea? NO! Does jon have any other choice? If he wants to keep the watch honest and unalligned to the boltons he can t do anything else... Then the book jon isn t suicidal... He probably had some plan!

But I am happy that you agree that Jon was attacked because bowen and co. were afraid to suffer an attack from the boltons instead of some honorable reason.

Yes. Selfishly. His plan would have dragged the entire watch down with him. It was to lead a couple barbarians who've no experience in siege warfare, no real resources to launch a siege and a good part may have died just on their over half a thousand treck to WF. His plan was idiotic. It was down right suicidal. The  most noble course he could have taken would be to take his own life offer up the remaining rebels(they were on their territory and the crown had decreed them fugitives making it Jon's choice as a lord in the north to detain them), killed himself(hell he'd have a better chance of trying to off himself than pursuing his insane plan), and show Ramsey the walker they have since if Stannis is dead-the Boltons are going to be the only force in the north who can stop them. He already compromised the Watch's integerity by offering Stannis military advice and alerting him to a trap. And he would destroy any sense of the watch of being a neutral force by coming to WF with a horde of wildlings to attack the warden of the north. Selyse and her enterourge, Shireen and Melisandre may have very well been enough and if not Jon's own life will at least give the Boltons pause enough for the watch to show them ice-zombies are a thing.

Fuck honor. Jamie dis honored himself by not obeying Aery's and killing his father and allowing Aerys to kill hundreds of thousands. Bowen and co did what was right. 

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20 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yes. Selfishly. His plan would have dragged the entire watch down with him. It was to lead a couple barbarians who've no experience in siege warfare, no real resources to launch a siege and a good part may have died just on their over half a thousand treck to WF. His plan was idiotic. It was down right suicidal. The  most noble course he could have taken would be to take his own life offer up the remaining rebels(they were on their territory and the crown had decreed them fugitives making it Jon's choice as a lord in the north to detain them), killed himself(hell he'd have a better chance of trying to off himself than pursuing his insane plan), and show Ramsey the walker they have since if Stannis is dead-the Boltons are going to be the only force in the north who can stop them. He already compromised the Watch's integerity by offering Stannis military advice and alerting him to a trap. And he would destroy any sense of the watch of being a neutral force by coming to WF with a horde of wildlings to attack the warden of the north. Selyse and her enterourge, Shireen and Melisandre may have very well been enough and if not Jon's own life will at least give the Boltons pause enough for the watch to show them ice-zombies are a thing.

Fuck honor. Jamie dis honored himself by not obeying Aery's and killing his father and allowing Aerys to kill hundreds of thousands. Bowen and co did what was right. 

That is very interesting. So when an invading force stronger than the boltons invades the north and atacks the NW because of their actions what would you say? 

There is a diference in acting in a grey area and being completly alligned to the boltons. Jon giving advice to stannis is a grey area because he isn t involving the watch in the affairs of the realm, even alerting him to treason is a grey area because jon is simply giving information to stannis. 

However kidnapping your guests and giving them to the enemy of their familly is Red Wedding bad. It would make the NW a despicable organization hated by the gods and any righteous lord would strike them. Then jon isn t a lord in the north so what the IT declares is of no concern to him.

Another thing you always Forget is that it were the Bolton that threatned the NW. Jon is simply responding to the threat so they are neutral. Besides nobody said jon wanted to do a siege! You have no idea of what his plan was. As far as we know jon might know a secret entrance to winterfell... 

Bowen and co were simply stupid. They have no idea if the queen already escaped. They have no idea if the wildlings won t attack them. They have no idea if half the watch won t atack the other half. They have no idea if the boltons will belive them when they say the rest of the hostages weren t there. They have no idea if they won t attack anyway. What they did was not only wrong it was stupid.

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51 minutes ago, divica said:

That is very interesting. So when an invading force stronger than the boltons invades the north and atacks the NW because of their actions what would you say? 

If aliens came down and said they'd destroy' the others in tribute of what the NW did what would you say? Oh wait that wouldn't happen. An invading if it did conquer the North wouldn't go out of its way to attack the NW because what? They handed over some fugitives to the lawful govenore of the north rather than go to war to protect them?  Such a propision is ludicrous. 

51 minutes ago, divica said:

in acting in a grey area and being completly alligned to the boltons. Jon giving advice to stannis is a grey area because he isn t involving the watch in the affairs of the realm, even alerting him to treason is a grey area because jon is simply giving information to stannis. 

Information vital to the sucess of Stannis's war-effort. Him relaying that information as well as giving advice on how Stannis should conduct his war have destroyed any real notion of him being neutral. 

 

51 minutes ago, divica said:

However kidnapping your guests and giving them to the enemy of their familly is Red Wedding bad. It would make the NW a despicable organization hated by the gods and any righteous lord would strike them. Then jon isn t a lord in the north so what the IT declares is of no concern to him.

 

Detaining fugitives that have taken shelter at Castle black. The gods(with the exception of Rhl'or) have shown they are worthless. Fuck them and their feelings if they're real. The lords would hold Jon at a far and I do mean far lower level if he had merely detained fugitives who'd not come to CB to take the oath, could not take the until until the lawful govenore arrives to take them away to face the justice of the IT. The wildlings have been terrorizing the North for thousands of years. The type of hatred that the Northmen have of them will have for Jon to come to WF at a head of a wildling horde

 would far surpass any violation of social-decorum Jon would have committed. 

51 minutes ago, divica said:

Another thing you always Forget is that it were the Bolton that threatned the NW. Jon is simply responding to the threat so they are neutral. Besides nobody said jon wanted to do a siege! You have no idea of what his plan was. As far as we know jon might know a secret entrance to winterfell... 

 

In response to have found the mass murder and turn coat Mance to have "retrieved" Arya Stark and who is apparently pointing to Jon for why. There is nothing in his pov chapters that gives any indication of there being some "secret entrance" that he was planning to exploit nor when telling his brothers his plan did relay such a critical detail that may have made it looked a tad less like a suicide mission. And even if had some secret way to get in(which he never alluded to nor has Theon who'd spent nearlly his entire life there)after getting WF what next? What? Stay there? The north and the IT would place him under siege(and he'd quickly falter)and still head out to the NW with the notion it's too dangerous to continue.

 

Bowen and co were simply stupid. They have no idea if the queen already escaped. They have no idea if the wildlings won t attack them. 

 The queen's enterourge were kinda a hard thing to miss. Them trying to leave wouldn't be something that wouldn't be able to easily notice and stop. The wildlings to the immediate vicinity were mostly those who no interest in fighting, they merely want to live and no real state to wage war against the people who are the only thing keeping them from being crushed. They've a far greater chance at dealing with Tormund and his brutes they'd have a far greater chance of dealing than the Boltons.

 They have no idea if half the watch won t atack the other half.

 Jon was massively unpopular for his progressive policies concerning the wildlings(he was elected because he'd the backing of Aemon who got Jon the backing of major leaders in the watch) and sent away the few loyal hands he could have had. More likely his death would be greeted with applause from their brothers than pure scorn.

They have no idea if the boltons will belive them when they say the rest of the hostages weren t there.

 

They still have a far greater chance of hedging their bet on that than Jon's mad plan.

 They have no idea if they won t attack anyway. What they did was not only wrong it was stupid.

 

 

 They know for certian if they followed Jon's plan the Boltons would certianly attack them. And when offering the fugitives up, it'd be a prime time to again show that ice-zombies are a thing that all the stories of the others may be true that the north and the Boltons may be going to be the last stand defense between humanity and extinction. It was the right course based off their information. 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If . 

 

Information vital to the sucess of Stannis's war-effort. Him relaying that information as well as giving advice on how Stannis should conduct his war have destroyed any real notion of him being neutral. 

 

Detaining fugitives that have taken shelter at Castle black. The gods(with the exception of Rhl'or) have shown they are worthless. Fuck them and their feelings if they're real. The lords would hold Jon at a far and I do mean far lower level if he had merely detained fugitives who'd not come to CB to take the oath, could not take the until until the lawful govenore arrives to take them away to face the justice of the IT. The wildlings have been terrorizing the North for thousands of years. The type of hatred that the Northmen have of them will have for Jon to come to WF at a head of a wildling horde

jon would be alligning himself with the boltons. The boltons have an aweful reputation so it is expected that they will do awful things. So when the boltons piss someone off the watch would have to protect them ... It is a bad mid term plan!

And once again. It doesn t matter if they are fugitives for the watch. The laws of the IT don t apply at the Wall. You always forget that. So jon is betraying his guests to deliver them to their enemy. That is one of the possible crimes in the north and westeros! Who cares if they aren t taking the NW oath? They are guests!

 

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In response to have found the mass murder and turn coat Mance to have "retrieved" Arya Stark and who is apparently pointing to Jon for why. There is nothing in his pov chapters that gives any indication of there being some "secret entrance" that he was planning to exploit nor when telling his brothers his plan did relay such a critical detail that may have made it looked a tad less like a suicide mission. And even if had some secret way to get in(which he never alluded to nor has Theon who'd spent nearlly his entire life there)after getting WF what next? What? Stay there? The north and the IT would place him under siege(and he'd quickly falter)and still head out to the NW with the notion it's too dangerous to continue.

Commanders always tell their battle plans to every soldier. Specially before marching with the army and to the soldier who don t even participate in the war... Jon could be keeping his plans for himself until he got near winterfell... there is no reason to tell everyone about it. And theon was a hostage. Ned thought of Ned as his son so he would know things theon doesn t know.

Yeah, the boltons are atacking the NW on the word of a wildling that claims to be mance rayder that hundreds of people saw burning... Best evidence ever! But ok, I admit they have reasons to be mad at jon.

Then you assume jon would take control of the north... Why would he? He could take winterfell, give it to a northern lord he likes and go back to the Wall with the wildlings... Why do always insist in seeing bd outcomes? The future of the north would ne decided by the northern lord in charge. However people would know that they shouldn t mess with the NW lol...

21 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Bowen and co were simply stupid. They have no idea if the queen already escaped. They have no idea if the wildlings won t attack them. 

 The queen's enterourge were kinda a hard thing to miss. Them trying to leave wouldn't be something that wouldn't be able to easily notice and stop. The wildlings to the immediate vicinity were mostly those who no interest in fighting, they merely want to live and no real state to wage war against the people who are the only thing keeping them from being crushed. They've a far greater chance at dealing with Tormund and his brutes they'd have a far greater chance of dealing than the Boltons.

 They have no idea if half the watch won t atack the other half.

 Jon was massively unpopular for his progressive policies concerning the wildlings(he was elected because he'd the backing of Aemon who got Jon the backing of major leaders in the watch) and sent away the few loyal hands he could have had. More likely his death would be greeted with applause from their brothers than pure scorn.

They have no idea if the boltons will belive them when they say the rest of the hostages weren t there.

 

They still have a far greater chance of hedging their bet on that than Jon's mad plan.

 They have no idea if they won t attack anyway. What they did was not only wrong it was stupid.

 

 

 They know for certian if they followed Jon's plan the Boltons would certianly attack them. And when offering the fugitives up, it'd be a prime time to again show that ice-zombies are a thing that all the stories of the others may be true that the north and the Boltons may be going to be the last stand defense between humanity and extinction. It was the right course based off their information. 

 

Jon says that the NW is 50% against him and 50% with him. You are forgeting that there are thousands of wildlings in castle black at the time that surrendered to JON. JON is the one keeping the peace between the NW and wildlings. If the queen wanted to escape mel would make her be discrete. They never bothered to ask jon how he was going to deal with the boltons, they just assumed he would fail.

And the NW doesn t have zombies with them to shown. The bodies didn t reanimate! They have no proof!! 

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

And once again. It doesn t matter if they are fugitives for the watch. The laws of the IT don t apply at the Wall. You always forget that. So jon is betraying his guests to deliver them to their enemy. That is one of the possible crimes in the north and westeros! Who cares if they aren t taking the NW oath? They are guests!

The watch exists because IT allows them to exist, they're no sovereign state they very must conform and adhere to the laws of Westeroes as any other house. Guest doesn't mean people are allowed to hoard fugitives specificly those who have been shown to have committed treason. 

7 minutes ago, divica said:

jon would be alligning himself with the boltons. The boltons have an aweful reputation so it is expected that they will do awful things. So when the boltons piss someone off the watch would have to protect them ... It is a bad mid term plan

The wildlings have literaly been the mortal enemy for the north for thousands of years. The Boltons don't need NW protection. 

 

10 minutes ago, divica said:

Commanders always tell their battle plans to every soldier. Specially before marching with the army and to the soldier who don t even participate in the war... Jon could be keeping his plans for himself until he got near winterfell... there is no reason to tell everyone about it. And theon was a hostage. Ned thought of Ned as his son so he would know things theon doesn t kno

Only the details that they need to know. Which knowing there's some magical secret passage(that again Jon has never alluded knowing), would make his mission less like a group-suicide which will get the Boltons to come to Castle black with the intention of destroying it. Theon was treated as any regular noble ward and had a very close knit connection with Robb-who would have told Theon. 

 

18 minutes ago, divica said:

eah, the boltons are atacking the NW on the word of a wildling that claims to be mance rayder that hundreds of people saw burning... Best evidence ever! But ok, I admit they have reasons to be mad at jon.

They had possibly heard Stannis had burned him. For all they know that rumour was simply bullshit and he's the real deal and Jon's known friendly relationship with the free folk make the possibility of him using Mance to rescue his sister is a totally plausible idea. And they're still holding fugitives...

 

23 minutes ago, divica said:

hen you assume jon would take control of the north... Why would he? He could take winterfell, give it to a northern lord he likes and go back to the Wall with the wildlings..

I assume he and the rest of the men he brought dies. And how would he do that? After causing loads of deaths for every faction in WF after taking it? Say "here's winterfell hope you don't mind the killing of your men/or kin bye" and if the guy was really cool with Jon  likely launch the north into another war with south and set up the northern lords against each other when the north needs to be as United as it can

29 minutes ago, divica said:

Why do always insist in seeing bd outcomes? The future of the north would ne decided by the northern lord in charge. However people would know that they shouldn t mess with the NW lol...

Because that's all that's that's likely to happen if Jon follows through his plan?

 

34 minutes ago, divica said:

Jon says that the NW is 50% against him and 50% with him

And? I have to say it's obvious he grossly over estimated his popularity and his security as Lord commander.

 

36 minutes ago, divica said:

You are forgeting that there are thousands of wildlings in castle black at the time that surrendered to JON

Refugees. Mostly women and children.

 

36 minutes ago, divica said:

JON is the one keeping the peace between the NW and wildlings.

They like/respect Jon they're no more interested in dying to avenge him than they were to avenge Mance.

38 minutes ago, divica said:

If the queen wanted to escape mel would make her be discrete. They never bothered to ask jon how he was going to deal with the boltons, they just assumed he would fail.

The only things Jon felt the need to tell them gave him the  Certianty that they yes he would fail. Because his proposed plan was insane. 

 

40 minutes ago, divica said:

If the queen wanted to escape mel would make her be discrete.

Melisandre has never been shown to be able to teleport. She can tell the queen to cut out her tongue and glue her lips shut.  She still can't smuggle out a dozen knights a little girl a queen and fool at a time where all eyes are going to be on them.

And the NW doesn t have zombies with them to shown. The bodies didn t reanimate! They have no proof!! 

Pretty sure they've a zombie in the cellar Jon wanted to experiment on. And bodies could be made if needed likelyone of the Queens guard. Sad such s thing 

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I know the realities of this story's fandom and a large segment of the fandom is and has always been polarized and divided.  I don't expect to convince Jon's fandom because it seems to me they have made up their minds to defend his actions even if it means ignoring the story.  This is written for the neutrals who are willing to listen.  Jon's guilt is clear to me.  Let's look at the chain of events. 

  1. Jon chooses not to execute Mance Rayder.  This is a man who broke his oaths to the watch and under his leadership the wildlings attacked the wall and got many of his watch brothers killed.  If ever a man deserved to get executed, it is Mance Rayder.  Jon needed him so Jon twists justice and lets him get away with his crimes against the watch. 
  2. Jon sends Dolorous Edd to transport the wilding women back to the wall to help Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  It's obvious that Dolorous Edd didn't do this on his own volition.  The dullard didn't go to the whore town to get himself some action.  He did it under Jon's orders.  Why are the women needed if all that need be done is guide Arya to the wall?  Why the disguise and the subterfuge?  Even if that was all there was to it, it's still illegal because Jon had all the intentions in the world to take Arya away from Ramsay.  That is sticking his nose in the Bolton's business.  For that matter, if it wasn't illegal, Jon himself could have ridden out and guided Arya to the wall.  It's against the rules of the watch to interfere with the politics of the realm.  Jon knew it.  To Jon's excuse makers:  are you now going to claim that Jon was going to send Arya back to the Boltons?  That is the only way to excuse his behavior.  We both know that Jon had no such intentions; therefore, he was in the wrong.  Jon sent Mance Rayder loose in the north.  That encompass all the north to include Winterfell.  The Abel disguise was obviously needed so the wildlings can get Arya wherever she may be, be it on the road, the Dreadfort, Winterell, etc.  Mance and the wildling are not needed if the mission was legal.  They were needed because it had to be done in secret and it violated neutrality.
  3. Abel and his wildlings get to Winterfell and shelter under guest rights.  This is a high risk mission.  So why would Mance risk his own life and that of his wildlings to go to the most dangerous place they could possibly go to just so he could play at Bard?  The answer is, because he is in Jon's service.  He's there to get Arya out and take her to Jon, per Jon's order.  There is no way to  and no amount of excuse-making that will take this responsibility away from Jon.  Mance and his women didn't go to Winterfell for rest and relaxation.  They are there for Arya.  Or whoever they think is Arya.  Jon sent the wildlings on that mission and that is where the buck stops.  That is not different at all from Lord Tywin sending Gregor Clegane to menace the Riverlands.  Tywin is the man responsible for the destruction caused by Gregor and his men.  Jon is responsible for the murders, the breaking of guest rights, and the removal of Arya/Jeyne/Ramsay's wife from Winterfell.  Many neutral fans and yes I will admit, a few Jon's haters too, have already argued very capably and very effectively why Jon should be held guilty for these acts of atrocity. 
  4. Jon reacts to the pink letter.  He confers with Tormund and plots.  All the while in his own head he knows that what he's proposing is nothing less than treason.  Yet he does it anyway.  He makes a public speech.  The speech outs his clandestine activities to get his sister away from her husband.  We already know from an earlier pov that Jon knows this is wrong.  If any one of the brothers were to try this stunt Jon would tell him it is no longer his concern.  Arya was no longer Jon's concern.  Jon made her his concern and interfered with a Bolton domestic and a political matter.  Jon gathers wildlings for the purpose of attacking the Boltons and makes up lame reason for doing so when we all know he's doing this to get Arya.  His pov clearly proves that he can't get his mind away from thoughts of Arya. 

Jon's excuse makers can ignore the story all they want but enough has been written on this overly long thread topic to clearly prove that Jon is guilty of treason.  Whether you agree with what Bowen Marsh did to stop Jon is a different question.  But the question of whether Jon is guilty of committing treason against the Night's Watch has been answered and yes he is guilty of treason.  On the question of whether the men were warged to incite them to kill Jon.  There is no proof, either direct or indirect or even circumstantial, that they were under the influence of anyone except their own good common sense.  Jon violated laws of the watch.  Jon puts the watch in danger when he stuck his nose in the Bolton's business.  Jon tells the entire watch he's about to escalate his feud with the Boltons into all out war.  Those are the causes.  The Night's Watch kills him to stop him from escalating this feud to war.  Cause and effect. 

Edited by Quoth the raven,

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15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

know the realities of this story's fandom and a large segment of the fandom is and has always been polarized and divided.  I don't expect to convince Jon's fandom because it seems to me they have made up their minds to defend his actions even if it means ignoring the story.  This is written for the neutrals who are willing to listen.  Jon's guilt is clear to me.  Let's look at the chain of events. 

As a Jon 'defender' I would like to point out it is the Jon 'haters' that have ignored the story. Much as you have done your self. I take no issue with Jon being ridiculed for the decisions he made or condemned for the things he actually did. The issue I, & many others, take is with the blatant disregard to what was written attributing faults to Jon he was either not directly responsible for or didn't partake in at all. 

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon chooses not to execute Mance Rayder.  This is a man who broke his oaths to the watch and under his leadership the wildlings attacked the wall and got many of his watch brothers killed.  If ever a man deserved to get executed, it is Mance Rayder.  Jon needed him so Jon twists justice and lets him get away with his crimes against the watch. 

Yes, Mance Rayder is an enemy to the wall. He broke his oath & deserted his brothers, the penalty for this crime is death. However,  Jon didn't choose not to execute him so much as he allowed him to live. Maybe I'm splitting hairs here but Jon believed he did kill Mance Rayder & by the time he realizes he didn't Mance is not his prisoner. Maybe he should have cut him down where he stood but to imply he made a different choice solely to rescue his sister is erroneous & false. Think of the consequences Jon & the watch would likely have faced had he beheaded a prisoner of King Stannis. Is it not likely that these reasons played into his decision to allow Mance to live? 

 

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:
  • Jon sends Dolorous Edd to transport the wilding women back to the wall to help Mance Rayder on his mission to get Arya.  It's obvious that Dolorous Edd didn't do this on his own volition.  The dullard didn't go to the whore town to get himself some action.  He did it under Jon's orders.  Why are the women needed if all that need be done is guide Arya to the wall?  Why the disguise and the subterfuge?  Even if that was all there was to it, it's still illegal because Jon had all the intentions in the world to take Arya away from Ramsay.  That is sticking his nose in the Bolton's business.  For that matter, if it wasn't illegal, Jon himself could have ridden out and guided Arya to the wall.  It's against the rules of the watch to interfere with the politics of the realm.  Jon knew it.  To Jon's excuse makers:  are you now going to claim that Jon was going to send Arya back to the Boltons?  That is the only way to excuse his behavior.  We both know that Jon had no such intentions; therefore, he was in the wrong.  Jon sent Mance Rayder loose in the north.  That encompass all the north to include Winterfell.  The Abel disguise was obviously needed so the wildlings can get Arya wherever she may be, be it on the road, the Dreadfort, Winterell, etc.  Mance and the wildling are not needed if the mission was legal.  They were needed because it had to be done in secret and it violated neutrality

Yes Jon sends Edd to Mole's town to get women. I'm not entirely sure why this needs stated as the act is not oath breaking. Why are all the women needed? Mance says to get Arya to trust him. Now you can argue that is bs & maybe it is. You can also argue Jon should have known it was BS but you cannot argue Jon did know it was BS because we have Jon's POV & we know he didn't. We also know Mance had a plan of his own he may have needed the women for, one Jon is not privy to. Why the disguise? I imagine for whatever Mance's alternate plans were. 

Intentions aren't illegal. It just so happens though that we know very well what Jon's intentions were. To allow Mance & Co via Mel's command/request to rescue a fleeing Arya. I would ask you if Jon's intentions were to take Arya from Ramsay (something I would have done for my sister legal or not) why is it he doesn't do that when he first learns of her marriage to Ramsay? Secondly why does he never express those intentions out loud OR in his thoughts? The reason it isn't illegal is because Mance is no longer a member of the NW. He is not bound by any oath or law to take no part in matters of the realm. Jon himself would be well within the law to ride out to meet Arya as well but he is LC of the NW & cannot leave his post to go chasing after a fleeing girl. Rescuing a fleeing Arya is not interfering with any politics (I would argue that isn't the oath he has sworn anyway but I don't think that will matter to you) 

Jon absolutely would never have sent Arya back to Ramsay & he is not duty, honor, or oath bound to do so at any rate. 

The secrecy surrounded Mance's ulterior motive & I think you are misunderstanding secrecy & neutrality because one does not equate the other. Things can be done in secrecy & not be illegal. Besides as I've said Mance is not bound by the laws of the NW. He is a prisoner of King Stannis & is arguably bound by his rules & laws.

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Abel and his wildlings get to Winterfell and shelter under guest rights.  This is a high risk mission.  So why would Mance risk his own life and that of his wildlings to go to the most dangerous place they could possibly go to just so he could play at Bard?  The answer is, because he is in Jon's service.  He's there to get Arya out and take her to Jon, per Jon's order.  There is no way to  and no amount of excuse-making that will take this responsibility away from Jon.  Mance and his women didn't go to Winterfell for rest and relaxation.  They are there for Arya.  Or whoever they think is Arya.  Jon sent the wildlings on that mission and that is where the buck stops.  That is not different at all from Lord Tywin sending Gregor Clegane to menace the Riverlands.  Tywin is the man responsible for the destruction caused by Gregor and his men.  Jon is responsible for the murders, the breaking of guest rights, and the removal of Arya/Jeyne/Ramsay's wife from Winterfell.  Many neutral fans and yes I will admit, a few Jon's haters too, have already argued very capably and very effectively why Jon should be held guilty for these acts of atrocity. 

 WF is hardly the most dangerous place Mance & Co could possibly go. Why would Mance risk his life indeed. Because he is in Jon's service is an answer that falls flat. He has absolutely no reason to risk his life for Jon or Jon's sister. The answer to that question has not been answered yet. Mance agrees to risk his life to retrieve Arya because he has a mission he wants to carry out. It's explicitly stated in the text. We don't know what exactly that mission was as of yet. 

Here we are with more ignoring of the story. Jon did not send Mance anywhere. Melisandre did. I'll ask you the same question I asked the many other posters that said this: Can you provide me with one quote of Jon telling Mance to go get Arya from Ramsay or from anywhere else? It should be relatively easy if what you state is true.

I would be curious to see where all these posts are that "have already argued very capably and very effectively why Jon should be held guilty for these acts of atrocity" Furthermore I think we need more information on guest right to make a definitive answer but as far as we know guest right is only extended to the guest, not the host. 

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon reacts to the pink letter.  He confers with Tormund and plots.  All the while in his own head he knows that what he's proposing is nothing less than treason.  Yet he does it anyway.  He makes a public speech.  The speech outs his clandestine activities to get his sister away from her husband.  We already know from an earlier pov that Jon knows this is wrong.  If any one of the brothers were to try this stunt Jon would tell him it is no longer his concern.  Arya was no longer Jon's concern.  Jon made her his concern and interfered with a Bolton domestic and a political matter.  Jon gathers wildlings for the purpose of attacking the Boltons and makes up lame reason for doing so when we all know he's doing this to get Arya.  His pov clearly proves that he can't get his mind away from thoughts of Arya. 

 

IIRC the speech never mentions Arya at all but after I'm done posting I'll find the speech & post it.

The thing is "we all" don't know he can't keep his mind from Arya. Only the Jon haters seem to "know" that. Apparently you have some insight to the text the rest of us don't because while Jon does think of Arya from time to time (Not something a "neutral" would condemn him for IMO) he is hardly obsessed or having a hard time keeping his mind from her. 

The "lame" reason he makes up for attacking the Bolton's is the only reason he provides with his words OR his thoughts. How do you presume to know this reason is false when it seems even Jon himself believes it to be true? 

15 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

Jon's excuse makers can ignore the story all they want but enough has been written on this overly long thread topic to clearly prove that Jon is guilty of treason.  Whether you agree with what Bowen Marsh did to stop Jon is a different question.  But the question of whether Jon is guilty of committing treason against the Night's Watch has been answered and yes he is guilty of treason.  On the question of whether the men were warged to incite them to kill Jon.  There is no proof, either direct or indirect or even circumstantial, that they were under the influence of anyone except their own good common sense.  Jon violated laws of the watch.  Jon puts the watch in danger when he stuck his nose in the Bolton's business.  Jon tells the entire watch he's about to escalate his feud with the Boltons into all out war.  Those are the causes.  The Night's Watch kills him to stop him from escalating this feud to war.  Cause and effect. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Quoth the raven,

The thing is the "excuse makers" are not providing excuses but rather citing, in text facts. You are the one ignoring the story my friend. You have claimed things we know are false & have completely ignored the fact that you have no in text basis for you claims. 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar

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On January 12, 2018 at 6:45 PM, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Thank you Lyanna<Rhaegar. I appreciate the encouragement. I actually had to take a break from the forum for a few weeks to work this out, because I've been wrestling with it for quite awhile and really felt I had to get as much of it down as I could. A brief stretch of anxious insomnia helped with the searching and some insights but I realized writing it down was the best way to work it out. My screen name I thought would be a fitting tribute to my love of the raven/crow motif but also the Old Bear. I love that man. Plus Edgar Allen would have loved wights! 

.

I find that contrast to what Ned would have done very interesting too, divica. I think one of Jon's biggest struggles is how he views Ned and hoe he feels he might never be good enough to measure up to the standard of the Ned, but he recognizes in a number of passages that Ned was a man too and had his shortcomings and made mistakes also.  Eh, I don't know.  I think Eddard Stark would have compromised his honor if he had been put in Jon's position. I mean basiclly everytime there's a choice between doing what is "honorble" and what Ned finds morally right he's been shown often to go with the latter. Such as supporting Robert's Ascension to the throne, when Viserys was still the rightful heir to the throne, giving Cersi a heads up of having the intention of telling Robert and finally his confession just to save his daughters.

It's part of the maturation process. Many of us fear we will become like our parents! Jon fears he never can.  I did notice the political ramifications and have asserted in other posts on this thread I believe Jon had the political authority to do so, within the boundary of the Wall and Gift, I believe he has that authority.I also maintain he broke no oath or pledge in doing so, but of course, we know the Wall isn't as isolated as it once was, so there are reverberations. I just believe it was done in accordance with the gods and will bear more good than harm. I also believe he broke no oath in regards to Mance. It may have been a political mistake, in a sense, but again I think the gods have further use of Mance too and while short term it may have been a mistake, I think long term it will prove to have been for the best too.  

It was a massive insult to justice and it was wrong for him to do with his present information-if some good comes out of it I se

I kind of view his relationship with Melisandre as almost equal amounts attraction (beauty, power) and repulsion (deplorable methods, untrustworthy counsel) but I think her end will come from somewhere and someone else, probably through some of her own manipulations too.

 

I'm glad GRRM included the Melisandre POV chapter though, because it humanized her more for me. I see her less as a shadowy witch and more as a woman who rose from slavery and became very powerful in ability and faithful to her cause but think she is also riddled with doubt and has a very narrow worldview. I think her intentions are noble but her methods fail to recognize the trail of tears she is sowing in her wake. She also asserts her absolute faith in R'hllor, but if the Lord of Light is all powerful and she is his best prophetess than why does she need Stannis? 

God works in mysterious ways. Ok this sounds may sound cheesy but it is a idea many religiously  devout go to when they can't exactly make sense of something. Melisandre I don't feel is uber confident that what her interpetation  is of her visions is absolutely correct, nor does she think the power she's been blessed enabled her personally to save the world all by herself-just provide a part. She understands the pain her actions have caused and will cause(for she'd have to be made of stone to not know that if Stannis had burned Edric Storm it'd forever weigh on Stannis's heart), but she will not alter her course for any suffering that would be caused along the way is worth it if it is worth the greater good. I don't know if greatest sorcery has been a way she'd describe herself or has described herself. She does however play herself off as being "the greatest sorceress" whose absolutely certian in what she says because she needs to.

 

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