“For the watch”

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

35 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

He had a bad childhood okay? His mother is a rape victim and his best buddy always stinks so bad he is upset for them. He is a fine young gentleman that just needs to be rehabilitated so he can be a productive member of the society.

Haha poor Ramsay 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/10/2017 at 11:20 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Everything the trees have eyes said. 

Also the word "treason" is thrown around in here - I know you didn't say it but I've deduced from your post that you believe Jon a traitor & his actions treasonous. What do you believe planning an assassination on your commanding officer is? Treason. 

What in particular do you believe Jon's actions were to get Arya from Ramsay & how did those actions negatively affect the NW?

Jon's treason is a fact.  Sparing Mance, sending the wildlings to take his sister from Ramsay, and he was about to attack the Boltons.  All those are treasons. 

Plotting the assassination of the lord commander before that same lord commander revealed his illegal activities?  There is no proof of that.  Those good men only made a hasty decision to execute Jon after he announced his plans to leave Castle Black and lead the wildlings to attack the Boltons.  Marsh and his boys had no other means to stop their lunatic lord commander.  Jon is guilty of the worst treason that anybody can commit in the story.  Marsh and the men who executed him are not.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon's treason is a fact.  Sparing Mance, sending the wildlings to take his sister from Ramsay, and he was about to attack the Boltons.  All those are treasons. 

Plotting the assassination of the lord commander before that same lord commander revealed his illegal activities?  There is no proof of that.  Those good men only made a hasty decision to execute Jon after he announced his plans to leave Castle Black and lead the wildlings to attack the Boltons.  Marsh and his boys had no other means to stop their lunatic lord commander.  Jon is guilty of the worst treason that anybody can commit in the story.  Marsh and the men who executed him are not.

Treason is a point of view. Allowing the wildlings to cross the wall to safety and joining in a common cause is treason to someone who is conditioned to obedience, ignorance and bigotry.  Jon's actions are testimony to his humanity.  Jon has to determine which is right or wrong under the circumstances.  Ramsey is lawless and he has threatened the LC of the Watch and by extension the Watch itself.  That requires an answer.  It's not a question of interfering in the politics of the realm, it's a direct threat to the Watch.  There is also a question of Winterfell's relationship to the Watch and the Wall itself.  We still don't know what this is about.

Something like this has happened before when Joramun joined with the Stark of Winterfell to overthrow the Night's King.  I suspect we are seeing this story play out again in more detail.  Jon who is a son of Winterfell, in the role of Stark of Winterfell.

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Treason is a point of view. Allowing the wildlings to cross the wall to safety and joining in a common cause is treason to someone who is conditioned to obedience, ignorance and bigotry. Jon's actions are testimony to his humanity.  Jon has to determine which is right or wrong under the circumstances.  Ramsey is lawless and he has threatened the LC of the Watch and by extension the Watch itself.  That requires an answer.  It's not a question of interfering in the politics of the realm, it's a direct threat to the Watch.  There is also a question of Winterfell's relationship to the Watch and the Wall itself.  We still don't know what this is about.

Very well said, made me miss the "like" button. But I'm afraid it's rather futile to point these things out. Because it's impossible to have an interesting debate when people base their views on either totally flawed arguments or good old fan fiction, like Jon spared Mance, Jon sent Mance to Winterfell, Jon decided to steal Mrs Bolton from under Ramsay's nose, and so on. 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very well said, made me miss the "like" button. But I'm afraid it's rather futile to point these things out. Because it's impossible to have an interesting debate when people base their views on either totally flawed arguments or good old fan fiction, like Jon spared Mance, Jon sent Mance to Winterfell, Jon decided to steal Mrs Bolton from under Ramsey's nose, and so on. 

Cheers!  Well, you're listening.  That's enough for me.  LOL! 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon's treason is a fact.  Sparing Mance, sending the wildlings to take his sister from Ramsay, and he was about to attack the Boltons.  All those are treasons. 

Plotting the assassination of the lord commander before that same lord commander revealed his illegal activities?  There is no proof of that.  Those good men only made a hasty decision to execute Jon after he announced his plans to leave Castle Black and lead the wildlings to attack the Boltons.  Marsh and his boys had no other means to stop their lunatic lord commander.  Jon is guilty of the worst treason that anybody can commit in the story.  Marsh and the men who executed him are not.

Well no. He didn't spare Mance, He didn't steal his sister from Ramsay, and being "about to" do something can't be a treason until he actually does it. 

Whether they plotted before hand or not assassinating your chief commander is a treason. Period. There is no way around it. Whether or not Jon committed a treason does not change the fact that Bowen Marsh & Co committed one. 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Treason is a point of view. Allowing the wildlings to cross the wall to safety and joining in a common cause is treason to someone who is conditioned to obedience, ignorance and bigotry.  Jon's actions are testimony to his humanity.  Jon has to determine which is right or wrong under the circumstances.  Ramsey is lawless and he has threatened the LC of the Watch and by extension the Watch itself.  That requires an answer.  It's not a question of interfering in the politics of the realm, it's a direct threat to the Watch.  There is also a question of Winterfell's relationship to the Watch and the Wall itself.  We still don't know what this is about.

Something like this has happened before when Joramun joined with the Stark of Winterfell to overthrow the Night's King.  I suspect we are seeing this story play out again in more detail.  Jon who is a son of Winterfell, in the role of Stark of Winterfell.

I agree. 

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Very well said, made me miss the "like" button. But I'm afraid it's rather futile to point these things out. Because it's impossible to have an interesting debate when people base their views on either totally flawed arguments or good old fan fiction, like Jon spared Mance, Jon sent Mance to Winterfell, Jon decided to steal Mrs Bolton from under Ramsey's nose, and so on. 

Yes. I never know if they are trolling or serious lol 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Cheers!  Well, you're listening.  That's enough for me.  LOL! 

Always! 

 

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes. I never know if they are trolling or serious lol 

Same here. I like to think it's mostly trolling, b/c the alternative is even worse. But we probably won't be able to tell either way until TWoW is out. Trolls will keep on trolling, but there will be a lot of people who'll drop off the face of the earth forum.

 

[The Commentator]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Treason is a point of view. Allowing the wildlings to cross the wall to safety and joining in a common cause is treason to someone who is conditioned to obedience, ignorance and bigotry.  Jon's actions are testimony to his humanity.  Jon has to determine which is right or wrong under the circumstances.  Ramsey is lawless and he has threatened the LC of the Watch and by extension the Watch itself.  That requires an answer.  It's not a question of interfering in the politics of the realm, it's a direct threat to the Watch.  There is also a question of Winterfell's relationship to the Watch and the Wall itself.  We still don't know what this is about.

Something like this has happened before when Joramun joined with the Stark of Winterfell to overthrow the Night's King.  I suspect we are seeing this story play out again in more detail.  Jon who is a son of Winterfell, in the role of Stark of Winterfell.

Treason is treason.  It's not a matter of opinion.  Letting Mance Rayder off the hook for his crimes and sending him to rescue Arya out of her marriage is an act of treason for someone in Jon's position.  There is no excuse for it.  Ramsey only threatened Jon because Jon sent his agents to steal his wife!  What Jon did was an act of war.  

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Treason is treason.  It's not a matter of opinion.  Letting Mance Rayder off the hook for his crimes and sending him to rescue Arya out of her marriage is an act of treason for someone in Jon's position.  There is no excuse for it.  Ramsey only threatened Jon because Jon sent his agents to steal his wife!  What Jon did was an act of war.  

I’m assuming you are going with the “steal” Arya from Winterfell idea? How can Mance “steal” Arya from Ramsay out of Winterfell if Ramsay just stated he doesn’t have Arya? 

And Jon doesn’t have Arya to give. And Ramsay threatened the Watch. Do you see how dead end this debate is? As a reader you should be able to tell the truth in the book situation. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

53 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Treason is treason.  It's not a matter of opinion.  Letting Mance Rayder off the hook for his crimes and sending him to rescue Arya out of her marriage is an act of treason for someone in Jon's position.  There is no excuse for it.  Ramsey only threatened Jon because Jon sent his agents to steal his wife!  What Jon did was an act of war.  

Show me quotes from the book that say Jon let Mance off the hook. Mance wasn't Jon's prisoner so he did no such thing. 

Show me quotes from the books that state Jon sent Mance or anyone else to steal Arya from Ramsay. fArya escaped from Ramsay with the help of Theon & Mance but Mance was never sent to WF & was never sent anywhere by Jon. 

Also I disagree that treason isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of opinion that the laws of the NW were written meant to include defending your self & the watch against threats from the realm. It's a matter of opinion that the NW rules mean Jon has to command someone going out to help a girl fleeing from an abusive Lord, to not go because said girl may be his sister. The things Jon did do were not explicitly forbidden in the NW vows so if treason is not a matter of opinion it seems he could not have committed a treason. Show me in the book where the NW vows say Jon can't defend his self & the watch from an outside threat if the outside threat is a Lord & I'll agree with you. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Treason is treason.  It's not a matter of opinion.  Letting Mance Rayder off the hook for his crimes and sending him to rescue Arya out of her marriage is an act of treason for someone in Jon's position.  There is no excuse for it.  Ramsey only threatened Jon because Jon sent his agents to steal his wife!  What Jon did was an act of war.  

Treason is treason and the law is the law; except when the enforcers are knuckleheads.

[Tagganaro]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Treason is treason and the law is the law

And trolls are trolls. 

[LynnS]

41 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

And trolls are trolls. 

If everything is black and white; then assassinating your commanding officer is an act of treason and so is mutiny. 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tagganaro said:

And trolls are trolls. 

Yah, I don't understand this business of 'trolling'.  You better explain it to me since I don't follow the forums that closely anymore.

[Walda]

 

Just re-reading this thread from the OP, and these caught my attention as they did not before:

On 03/11/2017 at 0:54 AM, LynnS said:

Melisandre also claims to have some knowledge of Jon's enemies and I've wondered why she doesn't come out and tell him if his life is in danger. 

 

On 03/11/2017 at 3:48 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Wick able to only graze Jon's neck and when disarmed acting as if trying to say not me? Bowen Marsh attacking him with tears running down his cheeks and not able to pull his blade back from Jon's body? 

Gosh darn. There it is. Wick's blade barely touches Jon, and Wick finds himself thrown back, unable to approach Jon. Bowen Marsh is crying with the effort it takes him to resist the backward force and can't hold out against it when his blade enters its target. The blade between his shoulder blades was the last to touch him before Melisandre got her force-field up to full strength, deflecting the fourth knife (but not the cold).

Of course, she was there. The only Queens Men that came to the Shield Hall were the two guards Melisandre always had escort her:

Quote

Melisandre made it a point to keep a pair of guards about her everywhere she went. It sent a certain message. The trappings of power.

She knew the daggers were closing in on Jon. She had magic powers that could protect him - she had nearly burnt the ruby off her neck preserving Mance, so he could help make Jon trust her.

She attended the Sheildhall to protect him. She already knew about Hardhome, and had spent long hours reading her flames for Arya stuff, had come from her flames to the Shieldhall when she saw how close his doom had come.

But  Ser Narbert and Ser Benethon didn't know they were trappings. Their duty was to protect the Lady Melisandre. From threats like - an angry giant swinging Ser Patrek's headless corpse around. So before she could get to Jon (who was standing right next to said angry giant) she has to push through her guards and their steel. It doesn't take her too long, but it is a fatal delay.

What Melisandre is doing isn't shown in the point of view, because Jon was too busy with other stuff to notice her arrival, except in the way it affected his attackers. First, he was distracted by Wun Wun, and by the time she is there to be seen for the looking, his focus has narrowed right down to the distance between his neck and Wick Whittlestick.

So my answer to the OP is now this: Melisandre's attempts to protect Jon with magic would explain why the assassins are acting like they are being warged - why they are so distressed and can only bear to strike him once.

I still think Jon's smoking wound, and clumsy hand, are more probably signs that the Others have arrived on the South side of the wall. Which would mean that Melisandre and her fire magic is going toe to toe with the Others and their ice magic.

Great observation, @Richard Hoffman. Thank you for asking the question that made me look closer (eventually).

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Walda said:

What Melisandre is doing isn't shown in the point of view, because Jon was too busy with other stuff to notice her arrival, except in the way it affected his attackers. First, he was distracted by Wun Wun, and by the time she is there to be seen for the looking, his focus has narrowed right down to the distance between his neck and Wick Whittlestick.

I love what you have demonstrated here.  The ability to get right into the scene and look around; to see what is there and what is off-stage. You're right of course.  Melisandre was there and now I'm intrigued about her abilities; the stuff she doesn't show to anyone.

What a great post!

[Ninerings]

I'm skipping much for time constraints, but they couldn't capture him?

[Tagganaro]

14 hours ago, Walda said:

Gosh darn. There it is. Wick's blade barely touches Jon, and Wick finds himself thrown back, unable to approach Jon. Bowen Marsh is crying with the effort it takes him to resist the backward force and can't hold out against it when his blade enters its target. The blade between his shoulder blades was the last to touch him before Melisandre got her force-field up to full strength, deflecting the fourth knife (but not the cold).

Of course, she was there. The only Queens Men that came to the Shield Hall were the two guards Melisandre always had escort her:

She knew the daggers were closing in on Jon. She had magic powers that could protect him - she had nearly burnt the ruby off her neck preserving Mance, so he could help make Jon trust her.

She attended the Sheildhall to protect him. She already knew about Hardhome, and had spent long hours reading her flames for Arya stuff, had come from her flames to the Shieldhall when she saw how close his doom had come.

But  Ser Narbert and Ser Benethon didn't know they were trappings. Their duty was to protect the Lady Melisandre. From threats like - an angry giant swinging Ser Patrek's headless corpse around. So before she could get to Jon (who was standing right next to said angry giant) she has to push through her guards and their steel. It doesn't take her too long, but it is a fatal delay.

What Melisandre is doing isn't shown in the point of view, because Jon was too busy with other stuff to notice her arrival, except in the way it affected his attackers. First, he was distracted by Wun Wun, and by the time she is there to be seen for the looking, his focus has narrowed right down to the distance between his neck and Wick Whittlestick.

So my answer to the OP is now this: Melisandre's attempts to protect Jon with magic would explain why the assassins are acting like they are being warged - why they are so distressed and can only bear to strike him once.

I still think Jon's smoking wound, and clumsy hand, are more probably signs that the Others have arrived on the South side of the wall. Which would mean that Melisandre and her fire magic is going toe to toe with the Others and their ice magic.

Great observation, @Richard Hoffman. Thank you for asking the question that made me look closer (eventually).

I mean, I suppose all this is possible, but it seems like a pretty big power-up for Melisandre to essentially be able to warg human beings like that.  We've never seen a demonstration of anything remotely close to that, power-wise, from Melisandre.  Largely, as we have seen, she deals with illusions- she didn't actually really protect Mance from anything, the extent of her powers in terms of saving Mance was creating the illusion that Rattleshirt was Mance.  We know her powers are stronger at the Wall, but there is still no indication that her powers are anywhere near strong enough to do something like create a barrier around Jon.

I still just think that there are simpler explanations for Bowen and Wick's behavior, that until proven otherwise should be the consensus of what was happening.  We are privy to a lot of Bowen's characterization throughout ASOS-ADWD- he is from his own perspective loyal to the NW and also a little bit cowardly.  He is described as anxious and fretful numerous different times.  He is an old Northman, probably from the Neck, which generally makes him loyal to the institution of the NW, in his own way.  All that being said, I think it is evident he doesn't particularly want to attack Jon or kill Jon.  He feels it is necessary when Jon confirms his worst fears- leading an army of hated wildlings south of the Wall to attack the Boltons and antagonize the crown.  I think crying while he does it is largely consistent with that.

We don't know Wick nearly as well, but we can assume he's not a great fighter (he's a steward) who is only armed with a dagger against a good to great fighter in Jon who is in the middle of pulling out a Valyrian steel sword.  WIth his initial sneak attack foiled, I think it is within range of a logical reaction for Wick to back away like that.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I mean, I suppose all this is possible, but it seems like a pretty big power-up for Melisandre to essentially be able to warg human beings like that.  We've never seen a demonstration of anything remotely close to that, power-wise, from Melisandre.  Largely, as we have seen, she deals with illusions- she didn't actually really protect Mance from anything, the extent of her powers in terms of saving Mance was creating the illusion that Rattleshirt was Mance.  We know her powers are stronger at the Wall, but there is still no indication that her powers are anywhere near strong enough to do something like create a barrier around Jon.

I still just think that there are simpler explanations for Bowen and Wick's behavior, that until proven otherwise should be the consensus of what was happening.  We are privy to a lot of Bowen's characterization throughout ASOS-ADWD- he is from his own perspective loyal to the NW and also a little bit cowardly.  He is described as anxious and fretful numerous different times.  He is an old Northman, probably from the Neck, which generally makes him loyal to the institution of the NW, in his own way.  All that being said, I think it is evident he doesn't particularly want to attack Jon or kill Jon.  He feels it is necessary when Jon confirms his worst fears- leading an army of hated wildlings south of the Wall to attack the Boltons and antagonize the crown.  I think crying while he does it is largely consistent with that.

We don't know Wick nearly as well, but we can assume he's not a great fighter (he's a steward) who is only armed with a dagger against a good to great fighter in Jon who is in the middle of pulling out a Valyrian steel sword.  WIth his initial sneak attack foiled, I think it is within range of a logical reaction for Wick to back away like that.

There you go making perfectly logical arguments again.  LOL!  Yes, that is difficult to quibble over.  However consider that Mel's powers are growing at the Wall, including the power of her 'word':

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

We have a example of the power of her 'word':

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

 

If Melisandre was affecting the assassins in any way; I suspect that she used the power of her word to affect them.  I don't think we know what her capabilities are at this point; but they are changing.

I have wondered why Melisandre didn't name Jon's assassins when she had the chance.  I think the answer is that she planned to intervene to demonstrate her powers to Jon.  She has a purpose for him that depends on him turning to her; something that he avoids.  She knows who they are and has had a chance to 'prepare' them for the moment when she steps in and stops them with a word, a means to demonstrate the trappings of power. Except that she screws up and doesn't make it in time. 

[Sydney Mae]

On 12/1/2017 at 1:34 PM, LynnS said:

If everything is black and white; then assassinating your commanding officer is an act of treason and so is mutiny. 

 

Not when you consider the lord commander just owned up to treason during his public speech and then goes on to announce his intentions to do something so blatantly illegal like leading a wildling attack on the Warden of the North.