What if Jaime killed Robb Stark?

[UFT]

yes i know its probably show only, but jaime and robb almost had a duel. so what if jaime asks for single combat after the Whispering Wood, and robb, spurred on by his sense of honor and fairness, accepted? 

 how does the timeline play out? 

 

[Lion of the West]

I would think that Jaime then gets killed in a fit of rage by the Northmen and that the Northmen and Riverlanders are lacking a leader due to internal squabbles which means that their war effort is likely to fall appart.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

If Robb somehow wins what does he get? He already has Jaime captured and Jaime's forces defeated. What's in it for Robb? What would the outcome of the duel accomplish? If by some miracle Robb  wins does that mean Joffrey would grant the North and Riverlands independence and release their Stark hostages? Would Tywin withdraw his forces from the Riverlands? Jaime was in no position to offer any short of a deal like that in the first place. So if Robb got lucky and won he would really get nothing and if he lost then the North's cause would be over. Robb would have to be stupid to accept said challenge. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Jaime would have died in the Whispering Woods right after Robb .

[The Sunland Lord]

Both would probably be dead and the Northern army most likely would've went back home. This actually would've saved thousands of lives and catastrophic events such as the Ironborn invasion on the North, sack of Winterfell and the Red Wedding wouldn't have happened.

But would the story be what it is in that case?

With an early Jaime death, his POVs, which are arguably the best, would not exist. 

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Cersei executes Ned and Sansa - Jaime will undoubtedly be dead. 

 

The Tyrells never ally with the Lannisters (Bad PR). They go back

 

Hmm... 

 

 

[Lion of the West]

5 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Cersei executes Ned and Sansa - Jaime will undoubtedly be dead. 

 

The Tyrells never ally with the Lannisters (Bad PR). They go back

 

Hmm... 

 

 

Sorry but no. The Tyrells will ally with just about anyone that can keep Stannis from the Iron Throne, so the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells will still happen as they have common goals.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, LionoftheWest said:

Sorry but no. The Tyrells will ally with just about anyone that can keep Stannis from the Iron Throne, so the alliance between the Lannisters and Tyrells will still happen as they have common goals.

Mace would never allow his daughter near a regime that executed the 12 year old daughter of a Lord Paramount.

 

He is not that stupid.

[The Sunland Lord]

33 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Mace would never allow his daughter near a regime that executed the 12 year old daughter of a Lord Paramount.

 

He is not that stupid.

He might be, but not Olenna. In fact she saw through the little psycho anyhow.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He might be, but not Olenna. In fact she saw through the little psycho anyhow.

 

Had Olenna known the sheer depth of stupidity, malice, and depravity within the Lannisters household, she would have packed her bags home and wed Margaery off to one of the Reach's vassals.

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 hours ago, UFT said:

yes i know its probably show only, but jaime and robb almost had a duel. so what if jaime asks for single combat after the Whispering Wood, and robb, spurred on by his sense of honor and fairness, accepted? 

 how does the timeline play out? 

 

He gets un-robbed by a thoros and then everything is th4e same and everyone is killed at the red wedding 

 

[elder brother jonothor dar]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He gets un-robbed by a thoros and then everything is th4e same and everyone is killed at the red wedding 

 

I was going to say Robb would probably be dead, but now I'm not too sure

[James Steller]

Okay, so... you could have suggested that Jaime kills Robb in battle rather than Robb agreeing to fight him in a duel AFTER he's been captured. I'm going to go with the former scenario because the latter would never happen.

If Jaime succeeded in killing Robb, then the Stark cause is doomed. Admittedly, Jaime would probably be slain soon after he got Robb. But that also means that Tywin loses his ideal son, which means he'll be motivated to wipe out the Starks once and for all. Ned and Sansa are both killed by a vengeful Cersei when she finds out what happened to Jaime, and Catelyn and the other Northmen retreat back home to cut their losses.

Tywin turns and deals with Robert's brothers one way or another. It really depends on what happens. Assuming that Stannis still has Renly killed, Stannis probably won't hurry right into the Battle of the Blackwater given that Tywin would have arrived back in King's Landing. The Tyrells would ally with Tywin since they hate Stannis and Stannis, like the North, would be on the losing end of the war. It would just be a matter of time before Stannis dies, the Starks are wiped out, and the North is forced to choosea  new lord paramount.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

3 hours ago, James Steller said:

Okay, so... you could have suggested that Jaime kills Robb in battle rather than Robb agreeing to fight him in a duel AFTER he's been captured. I'm going to go with the former scenario because the latter would never happen.

If Jaime succeeded in killing Robb, then the Stark cause is doomed. Admittedly, Jaime would probably be slain soon after he got Robb. But that also means that Tywin loses his ideal son, which means he'll be motivated to wipe out the Starks once and for all. Ned and Sansa are both killed by a vengeful Cersei when she finds out what happened to Jaime, and Catelyn and the other Northmen retreat back home to cut their losses.

Tywin turns and deals with Robert's brothers one way or another. It really depends on what happens. Assuming that Stannis still has Renly killed, Stannis probably won't hurry right into the Battle of the Blackwater given that Tywin would have arrived back in King's Landing. The Tyrells would ally with Tywin since they hate Stannis and Stannis, like the North, would be on the losing end of the war. It would just be a matter of time before Stannis dies, the Starks are wiped out, and the North is forced to choosea  new lord paramount.

 

The problem is that you're not taking into account how others react.

 

The Tyrells will not join a family that executed theb12 year old daughter of a Lord Paramount because Jaime fell in battle.

 

The Tyrells retreat home.

 

The North should have no problem closing itself off from the rest of the kingdom if they decided to retreat, which I'm not convinced of.

 

 

[Lion of the West]

15 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Mace would never allow his daughter near a regime that executed the 12 year old daughter of a Lord Paramount.

 

He is not that stupid.

Thing is that you are wrong.

Mace would happily do a switch-Joffrey-for-Tommen on the Lannisters if it means his daughter gets to be queen and his enemy Stannis, with Florent in-laws, is not king on the Iron Throne. There are many reasons for the Tyrells to join with the Lannisters, both for reasons of power as well as reasons of securing their own positions against the Florents.

Margaery's personal happiness isn't the only thing that motivates Mace, protectingt their hold on the Reach is also important. Don't forget that either Mace hates Stannis or Mace thinks/is aware that Stannis hates him. The second Renly dies the Tyrells moves against Stannis and waste no time in eliminating potential friends of Stannis and then seek out the Lannisters. This is because Mace is aware that the Florents represent a lethal danger to the Tyrells if they would become part of the royal family, like they would if Stannis becomes king.

Mace and Loras going home to see Stannis as king with a Florent queen just isn't going to happen and until someone can figure out a way to eliminate the reasons for the Tyrells to think of Stannis as a hostile then the Tyrells will do whatever is needed in order to stop Stannis from becoming king.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

19 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

Thing is that you are wrong.

Mace would happily do a switch-Joffrey-for-Tommen on the Lannisters if it means his daughter gets to be queen and his enemy Stannis, with Florent in-laws, is not king on the Iron Throne. There are many reasons for the Tyrells to join with the Lannisters, both for reasons of power as well as reasons of securing their own positions against the Florents.

Margaery's personal happiness isn't the only thing that motivates Mace, protectingt their hold on the Reach is also important. Don't forget that either Mace hates Stannis or Mace thinks/is aware that Stannis hates him. The second Renly dies the Tyrells moves against Stannis and waste no time in eliminating potential friends of Stannis and then seek out the Lannisters. This is because Mace is aware that the Florents represent a lethal danger to the Tyrells if they would become part of the royal family, like they would if Stannis becomes king.

Mace and Loras going home to see Stannis as king with a Florent queen just isn't going to happen and until someone can figure out a way to eliminate the reasons for the Tyrells to think of Stannis as a hostile then the Tyrells will do whatever is needed in order to stop Stannis from becoming king.

The problem is that getting rid of Joffrey does not ensure the safety of Margaery, since the execution of Sansa would be the doing of the Lannisters.

 

It's not a coincidence that Mace sat on his ass during Robert's rebellion.

 

No point in putting much effort for a monarch that could sbit all over you without repercussions.

 

The Vale will oppose the Lannisters, no doubt. As will the North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Dorne, and Storms End.

 

 

[The Sunland Lord]

34 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The problem is that getting rid of Joffrey does not ensure the safety of Margaery, since the execution of Sansa would be the doing of the Lannisters.

 

It's not a coincidence that Mace sat on his ass during Robert's rebellion.

 

No point in putting much effort for a monarch that could sbit all over you without repercussions.

 

The Vale will oppose the Lannisters, no doubt. As will the North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Dorne, and Storms End.

 

 

The Vale ruled by Lysa wouldn't do anything. Her son must've been protected while having his milk. And the Greyjoys would probably do nothing, if we assume the northern army goes home after Robb's death. Storms end was against them already and Dorne didn't oppose them (military) even after they killed Elia's kids. Stannis vs. Mace is not to be underestimated. The Florents were the same for Tyrells as the Freys to Tullys and Boltons to Starks respectively. Waiting to stab their liege lords in their sleep when the time is right. So that's why Olenna couldn't undone the deal with the Lannisters but was easier for her to kill Joffrey. This deal was not out from love, but it was meant to be and was a political one.

[Lion of the West]

17 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The problem is that getting rid of Joffrey does not ensure the safety of Margaery, since the execution of Sansa would be the doing of the Lannisters.

 

It's not a coincidence that Mace sat on his ass during Robert's rebellion.

 

No point in putting much effort for a monarch that could sbit all over you without repercussions.

 

The Vale will oppose the Lannisters, no doubt. As will the North, Riverlands, Iron Islands, Dorne, and Storms End.

 

 

And the problem is that the Tyrells are not that scared of the Lannisters nor are they so concerned that something might happen to them. If they were so concerned they wouldn't have married off Margaerys to the grandson of the man who sacked King's Landing and who has the bannermen who killed the Targaryen princes and raped and murdered Queen Elia. But apparently the Tyrells were perfectly fine with joining forces with that man. And they were apparently perfectly happy to fight for King Aerys and Prince Rhaegar despite the terrible accusations made against them. That the Tyrells would run home due to a traitor's daughter being executed by the crown in retaliation for executing Jaime in cold blood is not going to happen.

Mace didn't sit on his ass during Robert's Rebellion. The Hightowers sat on their asses in regards to Renly and the Freys sat on their asses during Robert's Rebellion. Mace was fighting Robert and laying siege to Robert's home in an effort to do what Theon should have done when he captured Winterfell; demonstrate Robert's inability to defend his own home and capture valuable hostages to be used against the rebels. That's not sitting on your ass. That such a vast army was outside of Storm's End speaks more of the castle's strategic importance and more of how the Targaryens mismanaged their war effort.

Problem is that's not true. They were entirely happy to fight for for Aerys and his son Rhaegar, both who showed a distinct disregard for their bannermen's sensitivities, and then Reach ships were instrumental in putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion for the man who pardoned Tywin, Gregor and Amory for the Sack. Its obvious that the Tyrells don't lose any sleep over serving a king who is shitting, or might shit, on people who are not Tyrells,

The Vale will do nothing, as it does in the books, the North is on the weakest parts of the realm, the Riverlands have already been mauled by the Lannisters, the Iron Island are both fairly weak and crazy. Dorne will "plot" for eternity without causing any problem for anyone while the Stormlands are among the weaker parts of the realm. So that leaves us with three regions to oppose the Lannisters; two of the weaker parts and a Riverlands that's already taken a beating.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

5 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

And the problem is that the Tyrells are not that scared of the Lannisters nor are they so concerned that something might happen to them. If they were so concerned they wouldn't have married off Margaerys to the grandson of the man who sacked King's Landing and who has the bannermen who killed the Targaryen princes and raped and murdered Queen Elia. But apparently the Tyrells were perfectly fine with joining forces with that man. And they were apparently perfectly happy to fight for King Aerys and Prince Rhaegar despite the terrible accusations made against them. That the Tyrells would run home due to a traitor's daughter being executed by the crown in retaliation for executing Jaime in cold blood is not going to happen.

Mace didn't sit on his ass during Robert's Rebellion. The Hightowers sat on their asses in regards to Renly and the Freys sat on their asses during Robert's Rebellion. Mace was fighting Robert and laying siege to Robert's home in an effort to do what Theon should have done when he captured Winterfell; demonstrate Robert's inability to defend his own home and capture valuable hostages to be used against the rebels. That's not sitting on your ass. That such a vast army was outside of Storm's End speaks more of the castle's strategic importance and more of how the Targaryens mismanaged their war effort.

Problem is that's not true. They were entirely happy to fight for for Aerys and his son Rhaegar, both who showed a distinct disregard for their bannermen's sensitivities, and then Reach ships were instrumental in putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion for the man who pardoned Tywin, Gregor and Amory for the Sack. Its obvious that the Tyrells don't lose any sleep over serving a king who is shitting, or might shit, on people who are not Tyrells,

The Vale will do nothing, as it does in the books, the North is on the weakest parts of the realm, the Riverlands have already been mauled by the Lannisters, the Iron Island are both fairly weak and crazy. Dorne will "plot" for eternity without causing any problem for anyone while the Stormlands are among the weaker parts of the realm. So that leaves us with three regions to oppose the Lannisters; two of the weaker parts and a Riverlands that's already taken a beating.

 

I mean that they will not accept the Lannisters as overrulers.

 

Keep in mind that this divergence takes place only a month or so after the war begins.

 

The Vale already wanted to fight against the Lannisters because they believed that Jon was killed by them. The execution of Ned and Sansa would slice that bridge.

The North will return to its home and close themselves off, Dorne will not bow either.

 

The Riverlands will not bow.

 

And Mace dies of a hunting accident if Olenna can't get convince him to retreat.

 

The execution of Sansa would be political suicide to the highest degree, because of the senseless involved. 

If Renly does die, the Reach will retreat home. 

[Lion of the West]

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

I mean that they will not accept the Lannisters as overrulers.

There's no need for it. The Baratheon king will be the Tyrell's overlord. No Lannister overlord in sight.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Keep in mind that this divergence takes place only a month or so after the war begins.

And there's precious little reason to think that an increased animosity between the Houses Lannister and Stark will have any effect on the Tyrells, or anything else for that matter.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The Vale already wanted to fight against the Lannisters because they believed that Jon was killed by them. The execution of Ned and Sansa would slice that bridge.

No, not "the Vale". Some lords wanted to go to war and some lords by all accounts wanted to keep out of the war. The Lords of the Vale are not a hive mind with a singular will and with their liege lady saying "No" nothing is going to come of it.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The North will return to its home and close themselves off, Dorne will not bow either.

So they will abandon their allies and Lord Stark's maternal relatives to run away and hide in the North? That don't sound like Robb Stark.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The Riverlands will not bow

If the Northmen does what's suggested above the Riverlords will figure they're getting abandoned and left out to die, so they'll bend their knees fast enough after the Northmen betrays them. Otherwise the Riverlands are indefensible and will not resist a Lannister conquest any better than they resisted the Ironmen, the Stormlanders and so on.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

And Mace dies of a hunting accident if Olenna can't get convince him to retreat.

If you arguing that Lady Olenna will murder her own son they you're growing short of arguments. Not a chance that will happen as the Tyrells seems to be fairly functional in their family dynamics.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

The execution of Sansa would be political suicide to the highest degree, because of the senseless involved. 

No. It would be even more stupid than executing Eddard Stark, but if its done according to acceptable reason, like executing a hostage in relation for one of their own hostages getting killed, then odds are that it will be accepted as an acceptable response. The biggest loss will be that we readers lose on the best characters in the series.

6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

If Renly does die, the Reach will retreat home. 

No. For when Renly did die, as happened in the books, the Tyrells didn't retreat home but kept going. Odds are that they will do the same as they actually did. And you've yet to explain how the Tyrells will prevent a King Stannis with Florent in-laws from gaining the Iron Throne by going home.