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Proof that Bran can have an effect on a time that we readers or characters in the story would class as "the past".


Macgregor of the North

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After long time away for a much needed and enjoyed break from the forum I decided to have a quick look in after reading news about Winds and Fire and Blood to see if there was any good new posts worth opening up that wasn't just the same old stuff we were all always going over, and over and over and over... you get the idea.

I never got the chance to open up much new threads as I was tagged a couple times by renowned and distinguished ASOIAF books analyst @ravenous reader so automatically I open up and see what the Ravenous gal had to say of course. 

To my astonishment there are discussions still going on, with my name in amongst them, disputing a topic with some folks that I was very much a part of in the past when I was a forum addict on everyday and one I believe was settled quite confidently. Obviously certain parties believe otherwise and disagree with myself and RR but what can you do in the face of such stubborn headed behaviour?.

Lay the truth down again, that's what!. 

Ok I'll make this simple. 

The disputed belief.

Bran Stark, the super special young Greenseer can actually have an effect on such a time as us human readers, and human characters in the story would refer to as "THE PAST"!.

There are a handful of instances up for speculation and believe me I've discussed them all until I'm blue in the face but we need only one to show the truth of the matter here effectively. 

After Bran ingests the Weirwood seeds/blood paste he retires to his chambers where he watches the flames for a short time before he closes his eyes. This is the second time Bran sees his father through the Weirwood tree network, the first being earlier when he slipped from his own skin into the trees and saw Ned at Winterfell cleaning Ice.

We will focus on the second time. You will notice I mentioned above concerning the past that we as humans reading and also humans in the story would class the time in question as the past. It is not so for the Weirwood tree network. They do not understand the concept of time like that and don't view events happening as if they were in the "past, the "present", or even the "future". Everything is all one to them, there is no past present or future, it is all the same. Time is like space or something to them, it is just all there around them, eternally accessible. 

Humans however, for them time flows in one direction from past to present to future and due to this a certain event such as Roberts Rebellion or similar timed events are now confined to the past as of the timeframe of ADWD. 

With this in mind let's check the scene. Ned is praying to his Old Gods at a time soon after the war was won and he had returned to Winterfell. This is so far in the past in regards to Bran that he has not even been conceived or even born yet. He is just an itch in young Neds breeches. That folks, is the past.

"Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes. 

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Now that we have identified without doubt that this is in the past to Bran, us humans reading and human characters in the story, let's seal the deal and show how Brans actions effected that time. 

See in bold GRRM kindly spells it out for us that the whisper in the wind, and the rustling in the leaves was actually Brans voice. Yup you read it, Bran Starks voice was the whisper in the wind and the rustling in the leaves at the Winterfell Heart tree where Ned was praying when Robb and Jon were red faced squalling babies and Bran was not even born. 

The whisper in the wind and rustling of leaves is clearly at the tree where Ned is because Bran is underground in his chambers, he is not at a tree. These actions can only be happening where Ned is. 

I firmly believe that Ned looks up frowning due to this, while many (insanely) don't sadly. Check the reaction:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

It makes no matter, the fact still stands that Brans voice was the whisper in the wind and the rustling of the leaves at the Winterfell Heart tree at a time when he wasn't even born yet.

That friends, is Bran having an effect, albeit a small one, on the past. 

Thanks for your time. 

 

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Yes, it is a question of if it is closed loop like 12 Monkeys or branches like Terminator. Does anything Bran does in the past change the present? One would think 12 Monkeys. Though the Bridge of Dreams seems to give a rewind possibility.

Another question is to what degree Bloodraven is aware of what is possible. Is Bran just more powerful and can do things Bloodraven thought impossible or does he mean 'they'll never understand you' when he tells Bran 'they'll never hear you?'

Anyway, I think historic references to "Bran the Builder" will prove references to our current Bran screwing around back in time. For example, Bran will have contact, directly or indirectly, through his weirnet with a Durran, and that contact will (deliberately or otherwise) influence Durran's construction of Storm's End.

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13 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes, it is a question of if it is closed loop like 12 Monkeys or branches like Terminator. Does anything Bran does in the past change the present? One would think 12 Monkeys. Though the Bridge of Dreams seems to give a rewind possibility.

Another question is to what degree Bloodraven is aware of what is possible. Is Bran just more powerful and can do things Bloodraven thought impossible or does he mean 'they'll never understand you' when he tells Bran 'they'll never hear you?'

Anyway, I think historic references to "Bran the Builder" will prove references to our current Bran screwing around back in time. For example, Bran will have contact, directly or indirectly, through his weirnet with a Durran, and that contact will (deliberately or otherwise) influence Durran's construction of Storm's End.

Hey chrisdaw. Yup it's the closed loop thing or stable time loop. In Neds present both times at the Heart tree Bran was always the cause of the whispery wind and rustling leaves, even though the second time he hadn't even been born in Neds present. 

I think that when Bloodraven is telling Bran he can't "talk" to them he simply means he can't hold a full on conversation with who he sees and warn them of dangers and change the past etc. Things have happened and they only happen once in one timeline I believe. But they will hear the whispery wind and rustling leaves, however that won't change anything as Bran always caused that and made Ned turn to the tree and ask who's there and then look up at the tree frowning.

Im with you on the Bran the builder Durran thing and always have been on that point. I think we are supposed to figure out for ourselves that the little boy who would grow to be Bran the builder is Bran and that he possibly somehow taught a Durran the spells of the Cotf so that Storms End could be made with magical wards and used in current time as a refuge during the upcoming long night so Wights and Others may not enter when they match south. 

What I think is coming in the next books is a massive instance where Bran reaches through into the past and causes something huge that spooks him and changes his outlook on life and leaves him in a dark place. 

This instance is easy to guess. It's been a very long time since Ive been on here but last time I was around (adopts whispery voice) we weren't allowed to talk about it. 

You know of what I speak.

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1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes, it is a question of if it is closed loop like 12 Monkeys or branches like Terminator. Does anything Bran does in the past change the present? One would think 12 Monkeys. Though the Bridge of Dreams seems to give a rewind possibility.

Another question is to what degree Bloodraven is aware of what is possible. Is Bran just more powerful and can do things Bloodraven thought impossible or does he mean 'they'll never understand you' when he tells Bran 'they'll never hear you?'

Anyway, I think historic references to "Bran the Builder" will prove references to our current Bran screwing around back in time. For example, Bran will have contact, directly or indirectly, through his weirnet with a Durran, and that contact will (deliberately or otherwise) influence Durran's construction of Storm's End.

I think that is a matter of perspective. For normal people it is a closed loop, for some people with the ability of seeing possible futures they are branches that end collapsing into one reality:

Quote

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

For beings existing across time like Bran, fate might be malleable.

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13 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think that is a matter of perspective. For normal people it is a closed loop, for some people with the ability of seeing possible futures they are branches that end collapsing into one reality:

For beings existing across time like Bran, fate might be malleable.

Now that you mention seeing the future, since the past present and future are one to the trees and Bran is now wed to the trees I wonder if the books will touch on Bran Greenseeing the future much?.

If so and he ever seeked to act on changing it how he sees fit it would be similar to the outcome of if he tried to change the past I would imagine but instead of anything Bran did to prevent the past actually being the cause of the past event, in the instance of Bran trying to prevent an event in the future then anything he did to prevent that would eventually end up being the actual cause of the event. 

GRRM has stated he is interested in these types of things and plays around with it:

"Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us...
[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

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That is not proof. Bran and the reader get the impression that Bran's voice is a whisper in the wind, the rustle in the leaves. But that is not proof. Bran - and with him the readers - could be mistaken there.

I find it reasonably likely that they are not mistaken there, but we don't have prove as of yet.

I like the idea that our Bran might be Brandon the Builder, but we'll have to wait and see whether the story goes that way.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not proof. Bran and the reader get the impression that Bran's voice is a whisper in the wind, the rustle in the leaves. But that is not proof. Bran - and with him the readers - could be mistaken there.

I find it reasonably likely that they are not mistaken there, but we don't have prove as of yet.

I like the idea that our Bran might be Brandon the Builder, but we'll have to wait and see whether the story goes that way.

How is it not proof when GRRM himself inserts the words "Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves".

This is clearly explained to us that Brans voice is what made the whispery wind and rustling leaves, it is not Brans inner thoughts we are hearing as he would not refer to himself as "Bran". It's not Bloodraven clearly as he is not present in the sleeping chamber or in the scene. It is Bran alone so therefore it has to be an author insert to guide our understanding.

 What other possible way do you think we are supposed to read that?. 

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4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

After long time away for a much needed and enjoyed break from the forum I decided to have a quick look in after reading news about Winds and Fire and Blood to see if there was any good new posts worth opening up that wasn't just the same old stuff we were all always going over, and over and over and over... you get the idea.

I never got the chance to open up much new threads as I was tagged a couple times by renowned and distinguished ASOIAF books analyst @ravenous reader so automatically I open up and see what the Ravenous gal had to say of course. 

To my astonishment there are discussions still going on, with my name in amongst them, disputing a topic with some folks that I was very much a part of in the past when I was a forum addict on everyday and one I believe was settled quite confidently. Obviously certain parties believe otherwise and disagree with myself and RR but what can you do in the face of such stubborn headed behaviour?.

Lay the truth down again, that's what!. 

Ok I'll make this simple. 

The disputed belief.

Bran Stark, the super special young Greenseer can actually have an effect on such a time as us human readers, and human characters in the story would refer to as "THE PAST"!.

There are a handful of instances up for speculation and believe me I've discussed them all until I'm blue in the face but we need only one to show the truth of the matter here effectively. 

After Bran ingests the Weirwood seeds/blood paste he retires to his chambers where he watches the flames for a short time before he closes his eyes. This is the second time Bran sees his father through the Weirwood tree network, the first being earlier when he slipped from his own skin into the trees and saw Ned at Winterfell cleaning Ice.

We will focus on the second time. You will notice I mentioned above concerning the past that we as humans reading and also humans in the story would class the time in question as the past. It is not so for the Weirwood tree network. They do not understand the concept of time like that and don't view events happening as if they were in the "past, the "present", or even the "future". Everything is all one to them, there is no past present or future, it is all the same. Time is like space or something to them, it is just all there around them, eternally accessible. 

Humans however, for them time flows in one direction from past to present to future and due to this a certain event such as Roberts Rebellion or similar timed events are now confined to the past as of the timeframe of ADWD. 

With this in mind let's check the scene. Ned is praying to his Old Gods at a time soon after the war was won and he had returned to Winterfell. This is so far in the past in regards to Bran that he has not even been conceived or even born yet. He is just an itch in young Neds breeches. That folks, is the past.

"Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes. 

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Now that we have identified without doubt that this is in the past to Bran, us humans reading and human characters in the story, let's seal the deal and show how Brans actions effected that time. 

See in bold GRRM kindly spells it out for us that the whisper in the wind, and the rustling in the leaves was actually Brans voice. Yup you read it, Bran Starks voice was the whisper in the wind and the rustling in the leaves at the Winterfell Heart tree where Ned was praying when Robb and Jon were red faced squalling babies and Bran was not even born. 

The whisper in the wind and rustling of leaves is clearly at the tree where Ned is because Bran is underground in his chambers, he is not at a tree. These actions can only be happening where Ned is. 

I firmly believe that Ned looks up frowning due to this, while many (insanely) don't sadly. Check the reaction:

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak......"

It makes no matter, the fact still stands that Brans voice was the whisper in the wind and the rustling of the leaves at the Winterfell Heart tree at a time when he wasn't even born yet.

That friends, is Bran having an effect, albeit a small one, on the past. 

Thanks for your time. 

I agree with just about everything you say here. And I am sure that, as the show runners pretty much confirmed, 

Spoiler

a future Bran has already had an effect on Hodor in the past. 

For purposes of the tale begin told and the telling of it, I think this kind of thing is OK. It would get too bizarre,though, if a future Bran were to alter some event that we have already read. 

And here's the thing, if a future bran could alter anything, it would be Eddard's execution and the red wedding, no? (I suppose one could argue that the future Bran will be more concerned about the War for the Dawn than the petty internal affairs of men, even those of his family, but I don't buy that.) So if a future Bran were going to do more than a whisper or be shown to have influenced an event we already read, as we read it, then the very fabric of the entire story could change. I would find that very frustrating, wouldn't you? For that reason, I don't think we will see a future Bran alter anything that we have already read. 

ETA

I just read your reply to @chrisdaw. I think we see this the same way. 

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This topic always brings the Knight of the Laughing Tree to mind and Howland Reed's ability to talk to trees.  Specifically, the device on the shield: 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

Theon is the only other character who describes a weirwood with a red face; specifically the Winterfell heart tree:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once

We have seen someone actually talk to a tree:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

Jon has a very vivid conversation with Bran, mind to mind.  Bran appears as a three-eyed tree growing before Jon's eyes.  Bran is not confined by time or place.  Bran dreams of this encounter with Jon while in the crypts of winterfell before he has been wed to the tree or crossed the Wall.  

The Ghost of Winterfell also reaches down and touches Theon:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water. "I had to have two heads, else they would have mocked me … laughed at me … they …"

Theon seems poised on the precipice of full contact with Bran having pierced the vale in a lesser degree than Jon.  He perceives Bran as a weirwood with a red face like the device on KotLT shield.  The only time a wierwood is so described.

We don't know what the magics of the Crannogmen involve but it includes 'talking to trees' and it's not coincidence that Bran's heart tree has a red face while Howland's shield sports the same device. 

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21 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Now that you mention seeing the future, since the past present and future are one to the trees and Bran is now wed to the trees I wonder if the books will touch on Bran Greenseeing the future much?.

If so and he ever seeked to act on changing it how he sees fit it would be similar to the outcome of if he tried to change the past I would imagine but instead of anything Bran did to prevent the past actually being the cause of the past event, in the instance of Bran trying to prevent an event in the future then anything he did to prevent that would eventually end up being the actual cause of the event. 

GRRM has stated he is interested in these types of things and plays around with it:

"Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us...
[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

I assume that greenseer's powers are limited even for Bran. But I have to wonder if there are branches where Bran is killed by Reek as in Jojen's vision, Arya dies in Harrenhal, Jon never finds Mance in the Frostfangs or Mirri doesn't hear about the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World and doesn't trick Dany.

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34 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Now that you mention seeing the future, since the past present and future are one to the trees and Bran is now wed to the trees I wonder if the books will touch on Bran Greenseeing the future much?.

If so and he ever seeked to act on changing it how he sees fit it would be similar to the outcome of if he tried to change the past I would imagine but instead of anything Bran did to prevent the past actually being the cause of the past event, in the instance of Bran trying to prevent an event in the future then anything he did to prevent that would eventually end up being the actual cause of the event. 

GRRM has stated he is interested in these types of things and plays around with it:

"Surely the plot is very unpredictable despite all the prophecies you give to help us...
[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that."

The future hasn't happened yet, so how can the trees see it? They can see the past because they lived it, and they saw it, but nobody has seen the future yet. I think greenseers can see, in the words of the Undying, "the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made." 

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8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree with just about everything you say here. And I am sure that, as the show runners pretty much confirmed, 

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a future Bran has already had an effect on Hodor in the past. 

For purposes of the tale begin told and the telling of it, I think this kind of thing is OK. It would get too bizarre,though, if a future Bran were to alter some event that we have already read. 

And here's the thing, if a future bran could alter anything, it would be Eddard's execution and the red wedding, no? (I suppose one could argue that the future Bran will be more concerned about the War for the Dawn than the petty internal affairs of men, even those of his family, but I don't buy that.) So if a future Bran were going to do more than a whisper or be shown to have influenced an event we already read, as we read it, then the very fabric of the entire story could change. I would find that very frustrating, wouldn't you? For that reason, I don't think we will see a future Bran alter anything that we have already read. 

ETA

I just read your reply to @chrisdaw. I think we see this the same way. 

Agreed with all of you!

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Im at work and this thread is livening up so i cant touch on all replies in depth right now but on next break ill apply more thought and get back. Quickly though @Tucu

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But I have to wonder if there are branches where Bran is killed by Reek as in Jojen's vision,

Im quite sure there is no branch where Bran is actually killed. Jojen saw two boys in Winterfell Garb being flayed by Reek and just assumes one of those is Bran but infact it is one of the millers sons.

In instances where you may think there are other alternate reality branches i think they could possibly just be explained by misunderstanding the actual vision.

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This topic always brings the Knight of the Laughing Tree to mind and Howland Reed's ability to talk to trees.  Specifically, the device on the shield: 

Theon is the only other character who describes a weirwood with a red face; specifically the Winterfell heart tree:

We have seen someone actually talk to a tree:

Jon has a very vivid conversation with Bran, mind to mind.  Bran appears as a three-eyed tree growing before Jon's eyes.  Bran is not confined by time or place.  Bran dreams of this encounter with Jon while in the crypts of winterfell before he has been wed to the tree or crossed the Wall.  

The Ghost of Winterfell also reaches down and touches Theon:

Theon seems poised on the precipice of full contact with Bran having pierced the vale in a lesser degree than Jon.  He perceives Bran as a weirwood with a red face like the device on KotLT shield.  The only time a wierwood is so described.

We don't know what the magics of the Crannogmen involve but it includes 'talking to trees' and it's not coincidence that Bran's heart tree has a red face while Howland's shield sports the same device. 

Didn't Samwell talk to a tree too? 

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2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The future hasn't happened yet, so how can the trees see it? They can see the past because they lived it, and they saw it, but nobody has seen the future yet. I think greenseers can see, in the words of the Undying, "the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made." 

This stems from the fact that past present and future are all one to the tree. That has to mean something doesnt it or why would GRRM insert the notion?.

I see where you are coming from but if we look at Ned reacting to Bran in the tree in Neds present, twice, then technically he is reacting to something happening in a future "that hasnt happened yet" as you say. 

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8 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I assume that greenseer's powers are limited even for Bran. But I have to wonder if there are branches where Bran is killed by Reek as in Jojen's vision, Arya dies in Harrenhal, Jon never finds Mance in the Frostfangs or Mirri doesn't hear about the prophecy of the Stallion that Mounts the World and doesn't trick Dany.

Then it would be part of the Choose Your Own Adventure series. 

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2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

This stems from the fact that past present and future are all one to the tree. That has to mean something doesnt it or why would GRRM insert the notion?.

I see where you are coming from but if we look at Ned reacting to Bran in the tree in Neds present, twice, then technically he is reacting to something happening in a future "that hasnt happened yet" as you say. 

But it's not a future for us at the end of Dance--which is the present. 

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Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

But it's not a future for us at the end of Dance--which is the present. 

We are simply the reader and not part of the story. It was Neds present when he was cleaning Ice and when he was praying for Cat to accept Jon.

In the second instance Bran isnt even born so its technically a future influence. Its wonderfully messed up but i understand it in my own strange way. Bran is always wed to the trees and always present in "time" as far as the Weirwood tree network understands the world because to them the past, present and future are all one and the same.

Bran has always been around through the magic weirwood network. Its just his own physical self that had to catch up to that and when he learns of his involvement in or attendance at certain historic events it is not the event itself that will change as it will have always happened the way it happened but it is Brans perception of the event that will change. 

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3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The future hasn't happened yet, so how can the trees see it? They can see the past because they lived it, and they saw it, but nobody has seen the future yet. I think greenseers can see, in the words of the Undying, "the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made." 

Well, we have Bran's visions in aGoT about his siblings, father and mother and his glimpse of the Heart of Winter that terrifies him. Much of what he sees can be said to be in the present. But his vision of the knights hovering behind Arya and Sansa is far more a foreshadowing. So a greenseer can do that.

Question is: is Jaime a greenseer? He has this doom dream, while he sleeps with his head on a weirwood stump. We still have to learn whether that's actually a prophetic dream or not. It is sort of suggested that Jaime's path is leading to doom and his chances to save himself from that are slipping away.

And why wouldn't trees be able to see the likeliest future if flames can see it? In case of Jaime's dream, the weirnet doesn't have just knowledge of Jaime, but also what promises he made to Catelyn with Brienne, how the BwB is horrified by the Red Wedding and guilt ridden for losing Arya and not choosing the Starks and Tullies over Lannisters, that Arya is a warg and has a large wolf pack at her subconscious beck and call... Have to check the timeline, but either the weirnet was already aware that Catelyn was very likely to be resurrected, or indeed already resurrected by Beric and what she is. And once LS exists Jaime's inevitably doomed unless he saves her children.

 

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22 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Didn't Samwell talk to a tree too? 

Yes, he certainly prays to the trees and calls on them to help him and he certainly gets help in a number of ways, not the least of which is Coldhands.  He doesn't quite have the same connection as Jon and perhaps Howland.  There seem to be different degrees of 'reception' according to the listeners specific powers.  Jon is perhaps the most powerful next to Arya.  Howland may also have a certain amount of talent that allows him to talk to tree-Bran.  I suspect that he is the KotLT and rather than being skin-changed; his armor as been magicked up.  Specifically his shield.   We have seen something of that possibility with Renly's green armor.  Anyone who wears it appears to have green eyes; armor that was made by Tobho Mott.  We know Renly's eyes are blue except when he wears his armor.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.

His companion was a man near twenty whose armor was steel plate of a deep forest-green. He was the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon; tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, and laughing green eyes to match his armor. Cradled under one arm was an antlered helm, its magnificent rack shimmering in gold.

If Howland is sporting Bran's device at Harrenhal and knows something of the future; then his presence at the Tower of Joy where he save's Ned life makes some sense, since Bran is yet to be born.  

The business of what Bran saw at the end of the world is the reason he must live and so he must ensure his own survival in the past.  If it weren't for Howland Reed, Arthur Dayne would  have killed Ned.    When Bran talks about the end of the world in his coma dream; he isn't talking about a specific place, but a specific time.

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