Proof that Bran can have an effect on a time that we readers or characters in the story would class as "the past".

[LiveFirstDieLater]

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I definitely get where your coming from, it's like when Bran thinks how he knows every stone of Winterfell so well, like he has some sort of older knowledge that comes naturally to him somehow rather than him having just learned it from his regular climbing sessions. Like "he always knew" as you say. 

On the Crypts, it is the darkness of the Crypts that seem to awaken his gifts and begin to open his third eye at first. 

Theres interesting stuff on the darkness and third eyes opening in the books and also the WOIAF book. 

"Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that."

The Stark Crypts are beneath the castle, and so beneath the Godswood. We've gotten a look at Bloodraven's lair beneath the Weirwood Grove north of the wall... but we've never seen the depths of the Stark Crypt.

Would you be surprised if there is a Weirwood throne under there?

What about a greenseer in it?

Do you think the roots of the Weirwood worm through the bones of the buried Starks? 

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The crypt isn't just for lords and kings, it's just that only lords and kings get statues...

Oh yes, quite correct now that I read it again. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh yes, quite correct now that I read it again. 

All good, I made the exact same mistake once! 

[Macgregor of the North]

27 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Stark Crypts are beneath the castle, and so beneath the Godswood. We've gotten a look at Bloodraven's lair beneath the Weirwood Grove north of the wall... but we've never seen the depths of the Stark Crypt.

Would you be surprised if there is a Weirwood throne under there?

What about a greenseer in it?

Do you think the roots of the Weirwood worm through the bones of the buried Starks? 

The Crypts certainly go deep. Older and lower levels with the lowest partly collapsed to hear Theon tell it. I hope we read of the lower levels on page one day.

I don't doubt the Winterfell Heart trees roots extend all over the area under the castle and around the levels of the Crypts. There may even be a cave network, Infact i think there is and it leads beyond the Wall. Is there a throne like Bloodravens. With a Greenseer on it?.

I would be quite surprised I suppose. If there was a Greenseer it may be like the Cotf we see in the other area of Bloodravens cave network when Bran/Hodor explores.

We know roots are strong and can push through and damage stone so yes there is a chance that the Weirwood roots are entangled with ancient Starks bones. 

[SirArthur]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Bran actually tastes the blood of the blood sacrifice to the Winterfell weirwood is another such hint. He doesn't taste the memory of the blood, or has access to the memory of the weirwood. He is actually *there* and tastes the blood through the weirwood.

I don't know if this is really a time travel story and not a shared memory story. Where Bran, instead of interacting with the time, interacts with the person/soul holding the memory.

Much like a StarTrek holodeck that breaks. 

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know if this is really a time travel story and not a shared memory story. Where Bran, instead of interacting with the time, interacts with the person/soul holding the memory.

Much like a StarTrek holodeck that breaks. 

I have debated this and I see your angle but when Bran sees his father the second time and speaks, GRRM clearly inserts the words: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

That is Bran interacting with the time wouldn't you agree?

It can't be Brans inner thoughts, or the thoughts of anyone else as Bran is alone. This is words of the author explaining what's happening to us and he is saying that in Neds present time, a time when Bran was not even born, that Brans voice had an effect on that time. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The Crypts certainly go deep. Older and lower levels with the lowest partly collapsed to hear Theon tell it. I hope we read of the lower levels on page one day.

I don't doubt the Winterfell Heart trees roots extend all over the area under the castle and around the levels of the Crypts. There may even be a cave network, Infact i think there is and it leads beyond the Wall. Is there a throne like Bloodravens. With a Greenseer on it?.

I would be quite surprised I suppose. If there was a Greenseer it may be like the Cotf we see in the other area of Bloodravens cave network when Bran/Hodor explores.

We know roots are strong and can push through and damage stone so yes there is a chance that the Weirwood roots are entangled with ancient Starks bones. 

I wouldn't be surprised to find a cave network... may be the reason for the "collapsed" lower crypt levels...

i should have brought up one other odd factor in Winterfell, the water.

Winterfell is built on hot springs, all buone pool in the Godswood seem to be hot springs and it appears the castle itself was built so the hot water would run through the walls (awesome). 

But this of course highlights the fact that the bottomless black pool in front of the Weirwood (which doesn't ripple in the wind) is cold. Now others have speculated about this connecting to the cold dark river and bottomless sea beneath Bloodraven's lair...

But we know the Weirwood heart tree predates the castle itself, but not wether the walls were raised to keep things out or  keep things in (as we see Summer get chained in). The human sacrifice Bran sees appears to have been before the walls were raised...

Anyway, great topic

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have debated this and I see your angle but when Bran sees his father the second time and speaks, GRRM clearly inserts the words: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

That is Bran interacting with the time wouldn't you agree?

It can't be Brans inner thoughts, or the thoughts of anyone else as Bran is alone. This is words of the author explaining what's happening to us and he is saying that in Neds present time, a time when Bran was not even born, that Brans voice had an effect on that time. 

Ok, just to play devils advocate...

Another option is it's just a dream! 

Even if there is "truth" to it, it's possible it's just a dream of the past, Like Dany sees Ser Willem in the House of the Undying... or Rheagar and the "song of ice and fire" quote, Dany wasn't really there for him to look at, she didn't impact the past even though he looked at her, it's not even clear that what she sees literally happened or if it's simply a dream/vision version of the past.

[SirArthur]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have debated this and I see your angle but when Bran sees his father the second time and speaks, GRRM clearly inserts the words: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

That is Bran interacting with the time wouldn't you agree?

It can't be Brans inner thoughts, or the thoughts of anyone else as Bran is alone. This is words of the author explaining what's happening to us and he is saying that in Neds present time, a time when Bran was not even born, that Brans voice had an effect on that time. 

I accept and agree that Bran in influencing what is happening. But between the idea of time traveling (with all the prophecies and Aerys II) and the idea of a complex weirwood warging network, I would go for the warging with weirwood trees as greenseer soul catchers. It is very possible that other things are happening. Like - attention fanfiction - the Night's King that has been sacrified into the Winterfell weirwood (as seen in Bran's vision) reacting to someone with the name Bran calling him father. 

That said I do not disagree. If there is any time traveling in the story, this right there is one. 

[Macgregor of the North]

@LiveFirstDieLater I am running out of time as it's time to begin my weekend and family time calls. We can discuss the Crypts another time perhaps. Great topic indeed.

As to it being a dream of the past. All those different visions? Neds exact words concerning Cat accepting Jon etc? The pregnant woman? Ben and Lyanna fighting? The sacrifice? Sorry I'm not buying it personally. These are things that happened in front of that Heart tree throughout history and Bran is seeing them, I'd personally stake my full wage on it but that's just me.

In Neds instance GRRM goes as far as to tell us that it's Brans voice that is the whisper in the wind and the rustling of the leaves in Neds present. 

Then if we remember the first time Bran whispers Winterfell and Ned turns, Bloodravens distinctly tells Bran Ned heard a whisper on the wind and a rustle in the leaves. The exact same thing. GRRM simply confirms for us that Brans voice was that. It caused it.

Its as clear as day for us in my opinion, GRRM is telling us that Brans attempt at communicating with who he sees manifests as a whisper on the wind and a rustle in the leaves, regardless of it being a time we would class as the past.

Anyway gotta go. My first topic back after god knows how long and it's been a hot topic for hours. Brilliant. 

Been good talking to you all again. 

 

[The Hidden Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have debated this and I see your angle but when Bran sees his father the second time and speaks, GRRM clearly inserts the words: 

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon." 

That is Bran interacting with the time wouldn't you agree?

It can't be Brans inner thoughts, or the thoughts of anyone else as Bran is alone. This is words of the author explaining what's happening to us and he is saying that in Neds present time, a time when Bran was not even born, that Brans voice had an effect on that time. 

In looking at the effect Bran's voice may have had I think the next paragraph in the book provides some more context.  Here it is:

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't..

 

This brings a few questions to mind - Did Eddard look long at the weirwood because he heard a sound or perhaps because he was contemplating? Would he have looked long at the weirwood if Bran wasn't there?  I don't think we can know the answers to these questions.  We can make assumptions of course, but I don't think we can know.  

Later, Bran realizes that the weirwood cannot talk and, therefore, he cannot talk. In that case, why are his words in quotes if cannot talk?  What did Eddard hear?  Did Eddard hear words or the simply the wind and leaves rustling?  Even more, did Eddard hear anything at all?  We aren't told this part of the story from his POV, but I would like to believe that he heard something, perhaps the wind and leaves...

The last question I'm left with is, did Bran actually, physically, cause the wind, did he actually cause a physical rustle of leaves?  Think about that for a second...could he physically make leaves move to therefore cause the sound of their movement?  Imagine the implications of him having the ability to make things physically move!  I don't think I can believe that.  I don't think I can accept that as a possibility, at least not yet. 

If Bran could not make things move and he cannot talk (as he says he can't) then how could he make a sound?  I don't know.  Eddard is my favourite character and I would love him to have heard something or to have sensed something.  I hope he did. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, White Ravens said:

GRRM is pretty clear on the point that prophecies are problematic at best.  Take your pick between prophecy kicking you in the head as per Tyrion or biting off your dick as per Archmaester Marwen.  The characters in the book don't have much luck predicting future events through the interpretation of prophecies and I suspect that readers who channel all of the word search skills available to them aren't going to fare much better. 

All of them have a twist. The trick is to guess the correct twist, I think. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

The Stark Crypts are beneath the castle, and so beneath the Godswood. We've gotten a look at Bloodraven's lair beneath the Weirwood Grove north of the wall... but we've never seen the depths of the Stark Crypt.

Would you be surprised if there is a Weirwood throne under there?

No, I would not be surprised by that at all. 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What about a greenseer in it?

Perhaps, but I would think any greenseer there would have gone wholly into the godhood by now. 

2 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Do you think the roots of the Weirwood worm through the bones of the buried Starks? 

That'd be pretty cool. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@LiveFirstDieLater I am running out of time as it's time to begin my weekend and family time calls. We can discuss the Crypts another time perhaps. Great topic indeed.

Totally understand, enjoy the weekend, pleasure as always!

Quote

As to it being a dream of the past. All those different visions? Neds exact words concerning Cat accepting Jon etc? The pregnant woman? Ben and Lyanna fighting? The sacrifice? Sorry I'm not buying it personally. These are things that happened in front of that Heart tree throughout history and Bran is seeing them, I'd personally stake my full wage on it but that's just me.

So I should have been more clear, bear with me for a second...

The Weirwood (or Weirnet) has all those memories already, so there is no doubt that it can show them to Bran. But is Bran seeing a literal past, or a "memory". We know that when greendreams show the future they appear to come as metaphorical visions, not as literally viewing the future.

If Bran or others are seeing the past during a dream state (or a hallucinatory state brought on by Weirwood seeds, or shade of the evening), these memories could be "lived" by bran without effecting the past at all.

Just like Dany's experience in the House of the Undying... Rhaegar looks at her, like Ned looks at the tree. Do you think Dany caused Rhaegar to look up?

I raise this point not just to be contrarian, but if these visions are just memories being displayed as visions then we have to doubt both the honesty and the intent of showing them.

Dany was shown a number of visions to lead her off the path... while there may be some "truth" in these visions, I don't think they are literal... even if bran is seeing true honest memories as they happened, we have to ask ourselves why he is being shown these visions specifically... and if they are visions or actually happeneing.

Quote

In Neds instance GRRM goes as far as to tell us that it's Brans voice that is the whisper in the wind and the rustling of the leaves in Neds present. 

Then if we remember the first time Bran whispers Winterfell and Ned turns, Bloodravens distinctly tells Bran Ned heard a whisper on the wind and a rustle in the leaves. The exact same thing. GRRM simply confirms for us that Brans voice was that. It caused it.

Its as clear as day for us in my opinion, GRRM is telling us that Brans attempt at communicating with who he sees manifests as a whisper on the wind and a rustle in the leaves, regardless of it being a time we would class as the past.

I'm just suggesting it's all a dream is still a possibility, although I'm not at all certain about what way George will run with this... 

Also, on the topic of Deamon Trees:

Quote

"A man must know how to look before he can hope to see," said Lord Brynden. "Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."

Are Weirwoods self aware... do they think and understand and have opinions and personalities?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I wouldn't be surprised to find a cave network... may be the reason for the "collapsed" lower crypt levels...

i should have brought up one other odd factor in Winterfell, the water.

Winterfell is built on hot springs, all buone pool in the Godswood seem to be hot springs and it appears the castle itself was built so the hot water would run through the walls (awesome). 

But this of course highlights the fact that the bottomless black pool in front of the Weirwood (which doesn't ripple in the wind) is cold. Now others have speculated about this connecting to the cold dark river and bottomless sea beneath Bloodraven's lair...

But we know the Weirwood heart tree predates the castle itself, but not wether the walls were raised to keep things out or  keep things in (as we see Summer get chained in). The human sacrifice Bran sees appears to have been before the walls were raised...

Anyway, great topic

Or perhaps the hot springs indicate the possibility of future volcanic activity, perhaps just in time to win a war for the dawn, and perhaps triggered with the aid of the magic of the Children of the Forest? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

36 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or perhaps the hot springs indicate the possibility of future volcanic activity, perhaps just in time to win a war for the dawn, and perhaps triggered with the aid of the magic of the Children of the Forest? 

Ya I know people have thrown around the volcano idea a bit, under Winterfell and/or Hardhome... but I'm not sure I really buy it... just don't see the evidence... and I don't think the Children (at least the ones up north of the Wall) are on the same side as Mankind, but you never know I suppose!

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ya I know people have thrown around the volcano idea a bit, under Winterfell and/or Hardhome... but I'm not sure I really buy it... just don't see the evidence... and I don't think the Children (at least the ones up north of the Wall) are on the same side as Mankind, but you never know I suppose!

I agree that the Children of the Forest might not be solid allies, but in this, I think they share a common enemy. The Others, whether they are inherently evil would transform the environment so that life as we know it, perhaps all life, cannot exist, so the wee folk would get wiped out too, or forced to live an even more meagre existence underground, no? 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

23 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I agree that the Children of the Forest might not be solid allies, but in this, I think they share a common enemy. The Others, whether they are inherently evil would transform the environment so that life as we know it, perhaps all life, cannot exist, so the wee folk would get wiped out too, or forced to live an even more meagre existence underground, no? 

Mmmmmm, I prefer the idea that the Children are seeking to use the Others (or allied with, the relationship isn't exactly clear) to wipe men from Westeros... clear out all those dears overrunning the forest!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I agree with the OP. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Bran can & is speaking to a younger Eddard. 

Another piece of evidence is Osha telling Bran in the godswood of WF that the old gods are answering him when the leaves rustle. We know she has some knowledge of these things as she is correct in telling Robb he is marching the wrong way. 

I think maybe Bran saying he can only watch & listen because he is the tree & the tree can't talk is Bran thinking about a tree literally - trees can't talk. But a weirwood inhabited by Bran can talk. More like Bran can talk through the weirwood. He is still "awakening" & doesn't know or understand the extent of his power yet. 

I'm of the opinion that it is literally Bran's voice causing the rustle of leaves & wind not that he is physically moving the trees or wind but I could be wrong. Osha tells Bran he just has to listen or something to that affect. Some people only hear it as the rustling of leaves - those who listen better get bits & pieces of Bran's words & as Bran learns how to use his ability the words will become clearer. 

[Tai Pan]

Time traveling and manipulating the past can wreak havoc with the story.  George likes his plot tight rather than loose.  I don't see him sending Bran back in time to directly change history.  What Bran can do is see the past rather than depend on unreliable history.  Armed with facts instead of unreliable history will allow him to influence the future when he shares those facts with powerful people.