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Proof that Bran can have an effect on a time that we readers or characters in the story would class as "the past".


Macgregor of the North

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8 hours ago, Ian Dunross said:

Time traveling and manipulating the past can wreak havoc with the story.  George likes his plot tight rather than loose.  I don't see him sending Bran back in time to directly change history.  What Bran can do is see the past rather than depend on unreliable history.  Armed with facts instead of unreliable history will allow him to influence the future when he shares those facts with powerful people. 

I agree to an extent & if I had to guess I don't think GRRM will have Bran changing the past or the future. I think it would be something more like Bran realizing that he actually caused something to happen in the past. For an example maybe today's Bran tries talking to Aerys in an attempt to keep him from killing his uncle & grandfather but in doing so makes Aerys go mad & kill his uncle & grandfather. Almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. Or maybe in an attempt to prevent Lyanna's death Bran tells Rhaegar "Don't take Lyanna, she will die in child birth" But Rhaegar only gets some of the words & hears ".... Take Lyanna... child birth" & becomes convinced he must have a child with Lyanna. Then Bran has caused exactly what he was trying to prevent. But it was always going to happen that way anyway. Obviously I'm just speculating with my examples, I have no evidence to suggest any of that would or has happened but my point is past, present, & future are all one to the weirwoods. It isn't going to change but that may not stop Bran from trying. Possibly he van change the future outcome but the past is written I believe. 

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If Bran is responsible for causing events of the past; how will he recognize that he is responsible for any of it?  If he can view the weirwood record, how does he recognize himself? 

I don't know. Maybe something like when viewing the past he sees Aerys going mad killing his uncle & grandfather. Then after trying to talk Aerys out of it he sees Aerys going mad from the whispers in his head. I'm not sure. Or possibly the way that which must not be named presented Bran being responsible for holding the door. 

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So ...

- Bran sees his father during weirwood man training 
- He whispers "father, it's me, Bran". 
- Ned looks up and the wind is blowing

I am sorry, I do not see anything suggesting Bran is trying to repair his time travel mistakes. Even if all the ideas are true, shouldn't future Bran try to stop present Bran from wind whispering ?

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Just now, SirArthur said:

So ...

- Bran sees his father during weirwood man training 
- He whispers "father, it's me, Bran". 
- Ned looks up and the wind is blowing

I am sorry, I do not see anything suggesting Bran is trying to repair his time travel mistakes. 

I don't think anyone was using that passage as evidence that Bran was trying to prepare any time traveling mistakes... only that he can potentially affect the past by talking to people in the past. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think anyone was using that passage as evidence that Bran was trying to prepare any time traveling mistakes... only that he can potentially affect the past by talking to people in the past. 

I'm guessing that he can only affect the past through people who are still living within his present time frame.  This includes Howland Reed even though Bran was not born during the Tourney at Harrenhall; It seems possible that he can talk to Howland from his future time-frame just as he does with Jon and reach back into the past so long as the one he connects with is still alive.   I don't think Bran can do this with anyone; but only those with certain talents or abilities that connect them to Bran within the river of time.  Essentially, they become Bran's instruments.

Bran may have been able to talk to Ned through the whispering leaves but Ned is no longer alive to hear him.

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11 hours ago, Ian Dunross said:

Time traveling and manipulating the past can wreak havoc with the story.  George likes his plot tight rather than loose.  I don't see him sending Bran back in time to directly change history.  What Bran can do is see the past rather than depend on unreliable history.  Armed with facts instead of unreliable history will allow him to influence the future when he shares those facts with powerful people. 

We don't know the extent to which Bran will be able to change anything yet. If Bran is able to influence the 'past', as humans see it, I think George will limit these abilities. Perhaps some rustling in the leaves to those who are listening as @Lyanna<3Rhaegar says, will be the only ones able to hear him. Maybe they will only be able to hear small words here or there. The person listening will be left to puzzle out what the old gods are trying to tell them.

 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

And what would Bran's motive be in your scenario ?

I'm not sure what you mean. 

 

59 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing that he can only affect the past through people who are still living within his present time frame.  This includes Howland Reed even though Bran was not born during the Tourney at Harrenhall; It seems possible that he can talk to Howland from his future time-frame just as he does with Jon and reach back into the past so long as the one he connects with is still alive.   I don't think Bran can do this with anyone; but only those with certain talents or abilities that connect them to Bran within the river of time.  Essentially, they become Bran's instruments.

Bran may have been able to talk to Ned through the whispering leaves but Ned is no longer alive to hear him.

Interesting idea. What makes you think they have to be alive? 

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31 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not sure what you mean. 

Sry, I made up a word.

What I mean is a reason, a motivation. Besides him being able to do things, he needs a motivation. Why should he mess around in Aerys head ? Why should he talk to all these people ?

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23 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Sry, I made up a word.

What I mean is a reason, a motivation. Besides him being able to do things, he needs a motivation. Why should he mess around in Aerys head ? Why should he talk to all these people ?

I understand the word motive. I was asking for clarification because I thought I already made the motive clear as to why Bran would be messing in Aerys' head & assumed you must be talking about something else. 

To clarify: I specifically said this was all speculation on my part & that no evidence that I'm aware of exists to suggest this would happen. I was using that as an example to explain what I was proposing. 

If my example were to be true I would assume his motive would be to try to keep Aerys from killing his (Bran's) uncle & grandfather like I said in the post. Possibly because he thinks this is the catalyst that starts RR. Or possibly just because they are his kin & they die horrifically. 

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51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 What makes you think they have to be alive? 

I doubt that Bran will change anything in the past; but rather affect future outcomes by accessing the record of the past whether those are stored memories of previous greenseers or whether all successive greenseers become one greenseer in Bran's mind.  Coldhands was sent to find 'the one'.  Bran is able to see the blood sacrifice in front of the weirwood; but however much he wants to stop it, he can't.  He even tastes the blood in his mouth. I don't think this is a question of Bran's untapped abilities.  There are limits to what he can change or affect in the past.

 

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Just now, LynnS said:

I doubt that Bran will change anything in the past; but rather affect future outcomes by accessing the record of the past whether those are stored memories of previous greenseers or whether all successive greenseers become one greenseer in Bran's mind.  Coldhands was sent to find 'the one'.  Bran is able to see the blood sacrifice in front of the weirwood; but however much he wants to stop it, he can't.  He even tastes the blood in his mouth. I don't think this is a question of Bran's untapped abilities.  There are limits to what he can change or affect in the past.

 

Oh I agree totally. I think it would be way too messy if Bran could change the past. 

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh I agree totally. I think it would be way too messy if Bran could change the past. 

Just a random thought along this line; suppose time was broken at some point; someone did mess with past in some way they shouldn't have; the result of which manifests as the broken seasons. 

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6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Just a random thought along this line; suppose time was broken at some point; someone did mess with past in some way they shouldn't have; the result of which manifests as the broken seasons. 

Interesting. I would assume there would be some catastrophic consequence if time were messed with. Maybe Bran can "fix" whatever was wronged & it will be summer forever!

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17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If my example were to be true I would assume his motive would be to try to keep Aerys from killing his (Bran's) uncle & grandfather like I said in the post. Possibly because he thinks this is the catalyst that starts RR. Or possibly just because they are his kin & they die horrifically. 

But that is not what Bran is interested in. He wants to fly or walk again, he wants his father and mother back, he wants to be a boy. Rickard or Brandon are not in any of Bran's chapters or interest outside of Old Nan's stories or the Winterfell crypt. 

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15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting. I would assume there would be some catastrophic consequence if time were messed with. Maybe Bran can "fix" whatever was wronged & it will be summer forever!

We do see something amiss at the Bridge of Dreams when Tyrion and co pass beneath the bridge only to repeat the passage.  This can be explained away as foggy atmosphere eddies in the streams but I like Ravenous Readers take on it that the bridge is an einstein-rosen bridge.

Einstein translates to one stone; einsteinian, 'to surround with stone'.  

Quote

German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): habitational name from any of various places named with a Middle High German derivative of einsteinen ‘to enclose or surround with stone’. In the unsettled social climate of the Middle Ages even relatively minor settlements were commonly surrounded with stone walls as a defense against attack. Jewish (Ashkenazic): ornamental name composed of German ein ‘one’ + Stein ‘stone’.

And isn't that curious given that the area is populated with stone men or that einstein-rosen bridges are wormholes connecting two places in time and space.  

What are we being told about the Wall, a bridge riddled with wormways?  Or weirwoods with the roots like giant grave worms.

einstein-rosen translates literally to one stone rose.

If time is a circle or a wheel; it's been mended with crooked stitches.  The river doesn't run smoothly but is filled with twists and turns.

That's enough spit-balling for one day. :D

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35 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

But that is not what Bran is interested in. He wants to fly or walk again, he wants his father and mother back, he wants to be a boy. Rickard or Brandon are not in any of Bran's chapters or interest outside of Old Nan's stories or the Winterfell crypt. 

*sigh* I think you are misunderstanding me. I am in no way, shape, or form suggesting Bran will mess with Aerys' mind as I have no evidence to suggest this. I was just using this as an example to explain what may happen if Bran attempted to change the past. That being said one could argue that by stopping Aerys from killing Brandon & Rikard he keeps the fuel from RR. If Robert doesn't become King the Lannisters never come to WF & Bran never gets pushed out of the window. Ned never becomes hand of the King & therefore doesn't die & the RW never happens so neither does Cat. 

 

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

We do see something amiss at the Bridge of Dreams when Tyrion and co pass beneath the bridge only to repeat the passage.  This can be explained away as foggy atmosphere eddies in the streams but I like Ravenous Readers take on it that the bridge is an einstein-rosen bridge.

Einstein translates to one stone; einsteinian, 'to surround with stone'.  

 

 

And isn't that curious given that the area is populated with stone men or that einstein-rosen bridges are wormholes connecting two places in time and space.  

What are we being told about the Wall, a bridge riddled with wormways?  Or weirwoods with the roots like giant grave worms.

einstein-rosen translates literally to one stone rose.

If time is a circle or a wheel; it's been mended with crooked stitches.  The river doesn't run smoothly but is filled with twists and turns.

That's enough spit-balling for one day. :D

Excellent! I've never read that thread by ravenous reader, do you have a link? 

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@Macgregor of the North

I read your OP but not the rest of the thread so far, so apologies if someone else has brought this up but I doubt they have.

The main problem I have with the "closed/stable loop" form of time travel theory is that GRRM has already written 2 stories that explicitly use time travel (Unsound Variations and Under Siege), the rules of time travel are explicitly explained in both stories by the characters (and the characters' explanations are conclusively shown to be correct), and neither story uses "closed loop" style time travel. GRRM basically invented his own form of time travel that totally avoids paradoxes in which the past (and present and future) can actually be changed. Like in Under Siege, John Charles Fremont gets elected as the first Republican Party president in 1856 (instead of Lincoln in 1860). If you want the full explanation of how GRRM-style time travel works, I recommend reading my in-depth explanation in this thread.

And BTW, I totally agree with the main argument of your OP, that the scene with Bran getting Ned's attention proves he can change the past. :D 

side note - I don't think the Bridge of Dreams episode involved any time travel, but rather simple teleportation. IIRC, the boat they passed on the first go was not seen the second time around. And Ghost was seemingly teleported during Jon's wolf dream when he was traveling with Qhorin, so it wouldn't even be the only instance of teleportation we have seen.

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