Jump to content

N.K. all records destroyed!e


WatchingEye

Recommended Posts

Hi just looking for some info on this the N.K. had his name erased from all recorded histrory after he was defeated and name erased from histroy. My question is wouldnt this time frame happen, before the andals invaded so what records would there have even been? Runes or were the F. M. and wildlings able to write records in the time line? I had the feeling that records werent even a part of the nights watch around this time. Just wondering because if not the legend condricts its self if no records could exsist then. Thanks looking forward for some answers!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 After his fall, when it was discovered that Night's King had been making sacrifices to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden and forgotten.[1] It is likely this led the lords of the north to forbid the Night's Watch to construct walls at their keeps, ensuring the keeps would always be accessible from the south. Oral records of what he did are still being told, his name was just forbidden and then forgotten. I dont think weirnet forgot any, but if it was made from runes the andals took over not long after would they have been able to even read the runes, let alone the fm it seems odd they use "records" for him but have all the stories of who he was and what he did makes you wonder how much the time line is off. Like if the andals had records and writtings of him, and its hard for me to believe they recorded the 13LC with runes till when ever back then but i dont know for sure i just find it interesting. Like we only get one side because his side was destroyed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All we have is hearsay from the maesters saying all records were destroyed. That takes thousands of years after the "records were destroyed" even happend. what i find interesting is their is still a lot of runes trom the first men around supposable royces and the the vaylarian runes/gliphes. How do they know they were destroyed , even recorded, happend, or werent recorded by andals or maesters. Off topic but this brain buster always got me. The Night king other, or man the leader of the others. If he died during all this couldnt the remaining others just re-animate him there leader again? Almost makes me think him or the great other have to be behind the screen, because they havr thr ability to re-animate people/ maybe create others. Any thoughts on this? Hes a sword with no hilt dead=reanimated nights kings 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Records x Memory

The one who literally said "all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden" was Bran (ASOS, Bran IV), a 9-year-old boy whose knowledge in this matter was learned from an old lady whose erudition in the story is probably based on oral tradition alone.

Maester Yandel, the sole maester of the citadel whose opinion on the subject we really have access to, only told us that, based on the book "Watchers on the Wall" by Archmaester Harmune, Brandon the Breaker and Joramun would have "obliterated the Night's King's very name from memory" (TWOAIF, The Wall and Beyond: The Night's Watch).

To be fair, Bran also told us that his "name was wiped from the memory of man" (ASOS, Bran IV), which may indicate he had a word with Maester Luwin (I said "may").

However, I see no basis for assuming that the citadel doctrine speaks of "records" and I also believe that the contradiction you pointed out arose from Bran's imprecise vocabulary.

 

2. The recorded history of Lord Commanders' names

If Bran's words are proven to be accurate, it is worth noting that keeping a list of Lord Commanders' names carved on stones wouldn't be as difficult as keeping full Night's Watch tales on stone, but we actually know the latter survived, since as you noticed nobody knows Night's King's name but people knows his tale.

There is no way to state that the tales that Bran, Jon, Sam et al know are transcribed from runes engraved on stones. But a list of hundreds of names isn't something you expected to be maintained solely by oral tradition.

In fact, Samwell's research on The Others reveals that the oldest list relating the names of the Lords Commanders had 674 names (AFFC, Samwell I), which would indicate, by my calculations, that it was written at least 4600 years ago, thus after Andal Invasion. Then, we have to assume that for 5400 years there should be some kind of written list.

On the one hand, Maester Yandel fills me with ideas when he mentions a written form of Old Tongue (TWOIAF, The Iron Islands) and that the First Men of the Stormlands "carved the tales of their victories and defeats into the trunks of trees, long since rotted away" (TWOIAF, The Stormlands: House Durrandon) - and, let us remember, NW receives men from all seven realms.

On the other hand, we have been told many times that even the runes were not necessarily engraved in stone. There are runes in bronze armor (AGOT, Sansa II), crowns (ACOK, Catelyn I), armbands (ASOS, Jon I) and horns (ADWD, Jon III).

So, First men had several options of surfaces from which they could have completely erased the name of the Night's King.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Yes, what everyone has said.  The list Sam reads would have been compiled from previous research by maesters and so on back to the mists of time, but just like in our own times we've seen evidence of runes and persistent oral tales.  We even have the Sumerian Kings list, part historical, part mythological, but at least one king from which has been verified archeologically to have existed almost 5000 years ago. It's possible the Kings list was Martin's inspiration for the list Sam finds, maybe even probable.

Myself I think other textual clues point to the Night's King likely being a Snow.  Nan's list of possible candidates are all from current or former Great Houses in the north, and at least currently, great houses name their bastards 'Snow'.  Oral tradition might have tenuously remembered the name Snow but not the Great House, for certain, to whom he was related.

The people most likely to remember the Night's King's name are in fact the Wildlings.  They were never a closeknit people, nobody could have forbidden them to remember the name or remove him from written records, such as they may have had.  Very likely they had runes.

So when Igritte reacts to Jon Snow's name by telling us, arrestingly, that he has an evil name, we're left wondering about a story with an evil character that has not yet been divulged, or one with an evil character that has been told but with a missing name.  Who is evil to the Wildlings?  Someone they remember as Snow but other Westerosis, except for oral tale tellers extraordinaire like Old Nan, do not, because his name was stricken from records and forbidden?

In the Wildling history that we know only one man was so evil that the Wildling king actually banded together with the Starks - unprecedented that I know of before the present time - to eradicate him.  But while the Kings of Winter might have had his name eradicated, the Wildling king would have had no such power.

Jon Snow. Evil name known to Wildlings, but not to the Seven Kingdoms where we're told the NK's name was purposely obliterated.

Or not.  But I think iit's a strong possibility.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lady Barbrey

Many users tend to think it's so (some even say that Night's King's name was literally Jon Snow - or Jon Stark, as in legitimate bastard) but I'm of the opinion that Ygritte reacted to the word "snow" as it relates to several things considered bad north of the wall (snow = ice = cold = winter = death = Others), and so giving somebody that name seemed like a horrible choice.

However we know that snow is something Wildling see very often, it doesn't mean it's not a big deal for them. Indeed, if the winter on the North is considered deadly, beyond-the-wall it must be hell. A snowstorm could bury and collapse their homes and lead to suffocation, freezing or starvation. Therefore, a Winter-related name should provoke such reaction in a Wildling.

Although I find a very clever guess that the imprecision of what house did the NK belonged to is due to his bastardy, I don't think the wildlings are the likely people to remember his name. In fact, it's strange to think that Ygritte would link Jon's name to NK when Rattleshirt, Mance, Tormund et al didn't.

On the other hand, combining the song of Bael the Bard Ygritte tells Jon and Old Nan saying NK "was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down" is natural to feel there's a connection between the stories and how they relate to Jon. However, these stories have more discrepancies than coincidences and are full of inaccuracies (several of them can be found in the following threads - 1, 2, 3, 4).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ckram said:

@Lady Barbrey

Many users tend to think it's so (some even say that Night's King's name was literally Jon Snow - or Jon Stark, as in legitimate bastard) but I'm of the opinion that Ygritte reacted to the word "snow" as it relates to several things considered bad north of the wall (snow = ice = cold = winter = death = Others), and so giving somebody that name seemed like a horrible choice.

However we know that snow is something Wildling see very often, it doesn't mean it's not a big deal for them. Indeed, if the winter on the North is considered deadly, beyond-the-wall it must be hell. A snowstorm could bury and collapse their homes and lead to suffocation, freezing or starvation. Therefore, a Winter-related name should provoke such reaction in a Wildling.

Although I find a very clever guess that the imprecision of what house did the NK belonged to is due to his bastardy, I don't think the wildlings are the likely people to remember his name. In fact, it's strange to think that Ygritte would link Jon's name to NK when Rattleshirt, Mance, Tormund et al didn't.

On the other hand, combining the song of Bael the Bard Ygritte tells Jon and Old Nan saying NK "was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down" is natural to feel there's a connection between the stories and how they relate to Jon. However, these stories have more discrepancies than coincidences and are full of inaccuracies (several of them can be found in the following threads - 1, 2, 3, 4).

Quote

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

She never says he was brought down by his brother. Just that he was named Brandon Stark and that he was brought down by Brandon the Breaker. The Night's King was Brandon the Builder. 

The basic narrative starts with Garths children who war for their sister. We're told these tales in sections and by differing cultures that muddy the picture.

First there is Garth the First High King or Rock and Salt. Who dies and a curse is placed on his barrow. Then.

1. Uthor vs Argoth Stone Skin (Balon Blackskin comes to mind of the Iron Born) for Maris during first Tourney of Westeros, with Uthor stealing her and Argoth raging outside the walls till the end of his days.. Who pops up too? Brandon the Builder building the Hightower. Next? A wedding. Note also, Others raging outside the Wall.

2. Durran weds Elenai, and all their guest are killed on their wedding night. The retaliation has begun. Who pops up too? Brandon the Builder building Storm's End.

3. Next we get Azor Ahai tale and The last Hero. Linking House Dayne more than likely through Dawn. Nissa Nissa is sacrificed to end the war, and possibly make a sword. Or birth dragons. No apparent link to Brandon except that the last Hero's story ends with him finding the CotF and gaining their aid. 

4 Brandon the Builder then pops up building the wall and winterfell and founding the watch. The war for the Dawn is fought and won. But then a weird side tale that seems out of place in the dating. Yet not.

5. The Night's King. Rumored to be a Brandon Stark of Winterfell. Finds his dead bride returned alive. She needs him to reproduce as the Other other brother was killed during the war. The Salt King brother that tried to become King of Rock and Salt like his father, and thus activated the curse. He turned Nissa Nissa after her death. Yet, he's dead now, and she can't reproduce. They are brought down by Brandon the Breaker, but we're not sure which survived if either of them did.

Literally, his name is all over the events that led up to the war, and ended it. He is the Nigh'ts King.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:
Quote

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

She never says he was brought down by his brother.

It is there, in you very quote (the red part).

He's not rumored to be a Brandon Stark. Old Nan says "mayhaps" just because she's bullshiting him to enhance the thrill of her story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one whose name is erased from memory reminds me that the Great Other has no name:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos V

Warrior, make me brave. "I know little of dragons and less of gods . . . but the queen spoke of curses. No man is as cursed as the kinslayer, in the eyes of gods and men."

"There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand."

Melsandre and Moqorro are quite clear that the enemy's name must not be spoken.  This impies that invoking the name of the Great Other has consequences of some kind.  While Davos goes on to say that his name may not be spoken; a more ambiguous restriction.   While we are not given a name; we are given his titles; the Lord of Darkness, the God of  Night does sound suspiciously like the Night's King.  But further, there is a reference to "No Man", a euphamism for Faceless Man cursed as the kinslayer. 

I'm reminded of Arya's prayer, which amounts to a kill list, or curses on the names she speaks; and of Jaqen's reaction when Arya effectively curses Jaqen by giving him his own name for her last wish.   I suspect that the Night's King and the Great Other are the same thing; perhaps even Jaqen's god, Him of Many Faces.

There is a suggestion that there is power in speaking the name of the one whose name must not be spoken (or remembered) invoking the god's powers. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

He should not have said that. Victarion took him around the throat with his burned hand and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming him back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishman's face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh. The man kicked and writhed for a while, trying fruitlessly to pry loose the captain's grip. "No man calls Victarion Greyjoy a fool and lives to boast of it." When he opened his hand, the man's limp body flopped to the deck. Longwater Pyke and Tom Tidewood chucked it over the rail, another offering to the Drowned God.

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken." 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate." 

"The B-black Gate," Sam stammered. "Below the Nightfort."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The one whose name is erased from memory reminds me that the Great Other has no name:

It is an interesting thought to link the one whose name must not be spoken (great other) and the one who has had his name erased from the history (NK)

 

I have always seen the NK as kind of pulling a Moses when the Pharaoh has his name removed for all the histories and while Moses was not a god, he did have powers given to him divinely.

 

What you say here is interesting because it makes me think of something I had never considered.

 

For the great other "His Name Must Not Be Spoken" This means that he did, in fact, have a name. Whether or not the great other is the NK is one question, but even if that doesn't pan out just what the name of the great other is can be very fertile ground.

 

My first guess is "Tim" but, ya know, I could be mistaken.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The First Men were not always illiterate, using only runes. They had writing at one point, and then they lost it. The Long Night seems like the kind of event that could potentially cause a civilization to lose literacy. So it's likely that at the time of the Night's King there were written records, but they did not survive to the Andal Invasion - only songs and stories and such did.

This might have been related to the material they used to record their writings - a big reason we have very limited ancient literature is that so much of it was archived on papyrus, which has a much shorter life ("shelf life," 'natch) than parchment does. A World of Ice and Fire says they carved their writing on trees that rotted away in the Stormlands - this might be a misremembering of them having access to paper.

It is one of the major pieces of evidence to suggest the scope of the apocalypse during the Long Night and whatever led to it was really profound, and civilization before it was much more advanced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, GyantSpyder said:

The First Men were not always illiterate, using only runes. They had writing at one point, and then they lost it. The Long Night seems like the kind of event that could potentially cause a civilization to lose literacy. So it's likely that at the time of the Night's King there were written records, but they did not survive to the Andal Invasion - only songs and stories and such did.

This might have been related to the material they used to record their writings - a big reason we have very limited ancient literature is that so much of it was archived on papyrus, which has a much shorter life ("shelf life," 'natch) than parchment does. A World of Ice and Fire says they carved their writing on trees that rotted away in the Stormlands - this might be a misremembering of them having access to paper.

It is one of the major pieces of evidence to suggest the scope of the apocalypse during the Long Night and whatever led to it was really profound, and civilization before it was much more advanced.

I agree with this.

Maybe this is what you were thinking of?

The World of Ice and Fire - The Stormlands: House Durrandon

Much of the early history of Westeros is lost in the mists of time, where it becomes ever more difficult to separate fact from legend the further back one goes. This is particularly true of the stormlands, where the First Men were comparatively few and the elder races strong. Elsewhere in the Seven Kingdoms, the runes that tell their stories survive to this day, chiseled into cave walls and standing stones and the ruins of fallen strongholds, but in the stormlands oft as not the First Men carved the tales of their victories and defeats into the trunks of trees, long since rotted away.
 

I was relistening to the World book a few weeks ago while on a long car ride somewhere and this sorta stuck out to me:

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: The Summer Isles

Flowers of a thousand different sorts bloom in profusion on the Summer Isles, filling the air with their perfume. The trees are heavy with exotic fruits, and a myriad of brightly colored birds flitter through the skies. From their plumage the Summer Islanders make their fabulous feathered cloaks. Beneath the green canopies of the rain forests prowl spotted panthers larger than any lion and packs of lean red wolves. Tribes of monkeys swing through the branches of the trees above. Apes abound as well: the "old red men" of Omboru, silver pelts in the mountains of Jhala, night stalkers on Walano.
The Summer Islanders are a dark people, black of hair and eye, with skins as brown as teak or as black as polished jet. For much of their recorded history, they lived in isolation from the rest of mankind. Their earliest maps, as carved into the famous Talking Trees of Tall Trees Town, show no lands but the isles themselves, surrounded by a vast world-spanning ocean. As islanders, they took to the seas in the dawn of days, first in oared coracles, then in larger, swifter ships with sails of woven hemp, yet few ever ventured beyond the sight of their own shores...and those who sailed beyond the horizons did not always return.
~and then~
 
The histories carved into the Talking Trees tell us that these "Years of Shame" endured for the better part of two centuries, until a warrior woman named Xanda Qo, Princess of Sweet Lotus Vale (who had herself been enslaved for a time), united all the islands under her rule and made an end to it.
 
Which, of course, reminds me of good ol' tall talkin' horn-blower:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

Jon Snow did not answer at once. "Mully, help Clydas back to his chambers. The night is dark, and the paths will be slippery with snow. Satin, go with them." He handed Tormund Giantsbane the letter. "Here, see for yourself."
The wildling gave the letter a dubious look and handed it right back. "Feels nasty … but Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him. They never have any good to say, now do they?"
"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. "It was sent by Ramsay Snow. I'll read you what he wrote."
 
Dark ink, dark words :dunno: There is definitely a connection between history and the trees, and paper is the skin/flesh of trees.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Ckram said:

 

It is there, in you very quote (the red part).

He's not rumored to be a Brandon Stark. Old Nan says "mayhaps" just because she's bullshiting him to enhance the thrill of her story.

Ok, im blind haha i can't believe i missed that haha. It must have been late. But yes, he is rumored to be a Brandon Stark lol the rest was just your opinion. 

So he was rumored to be Brandon Stark and taken down by his brother. This still works with the narrative i listed above. Works better actually as my whole theory is about 2 brothers who warred over their sister and the throne.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

The First Men were not always illiterate, using only runes. They had writing at one point, and then they lost it.

This is likely, but all we have about this is Yandel refering that the ancient records about the Iironborn we have were made by people they attacked, "written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men (TWOIAF - The Iron Islands).

My interpretation on this is that there might be a written form of the Old Tongue, one that must not be confused with runes.

7 hours ago, GyantSpyder said:

The Long Night seems like the kind of event that could potentially cause a civilization to lose literacy. So it's likely that at the time of the Night's King there were written records, but they did not survive to the Andal Invasion - only songs and stories and such did.

That's contradictory. Even if Long Night caused civilization to lose its literacy, NK postdates Long Night. If we assume records were made about him, I don't see how it fits your premise.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But yes, he is rumored to be a Brandon Stark lol the rest was just your opinion. 

I'd agree with you if Old Nan had said "some say he was called Brandon Stark", but since she says "Mayhaps his name was Brandon" she's not informing Bran of a rumor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Ckram said:

This is likely, but all we have about this is Yandel refering that the ancient records about the Iironborn we have were made by people they attacked, "written in the Old Tongue and the runes of the First Men (TWOIAF - The Iron Islands).

My interpretation on this is that there might be a written form of the Old Tongue, one that must not be confused with runes.

That's contradictory. Even if Long Night caused civilization to lose its literacy, NK postdates Long Night. If we assume records were made about him, I don't see how it fits your premise.

I'd agree with you if Old Nan had said "some say he was called Brandon Stark", but since she says "Mayhaps his name was Brandon" she's not informing Bran of a rumor.

Maybe, but that's messed up to tell a kid. Mayhaps your named after a monster lol also, a pretty random thing to say. That mayhaps the Knight's King was named Brandon. Which is also the only name given to him. Since everything else out of Old Nan's mouth is considered truth. Idk why we would doubt her now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maybe, but that's messed up to tell a kid. Mayhaps your named after a monster lol also, a pretty random thing to say.

And you don't think the tales she tells are messed up? Old Nan loves gruesome stories that frighten the children. When she tells him about the NK she's teasing Bran, she pinches his nose then says that he and the NK potentially have the same name. It's all part of her schtick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...