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US politics: Just another Mueller Monday


IheartIheartTesla

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38 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Ha, that's a pretty funny typo.And I don’t see any value in isolating Sanders. It seems like just about everyone involved owns some share of the blame.

 Sanders is unique in that many of his supporters will always believe he was cheated out of the presidency, and if he runs again will believe only that he loses because he was cheated again. If he loses in the primary? Cheated. General? Cheated. That's what they'll spin, and that's entirely on him and his statements and his followers.

I don't see that being the case necessarily with other candidates, mostly because they haven't openly stated the whole system is rigged.

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I never heard Sanders say the primary was rigged, he said the DNC was unfair towards him. Not the same thing at all.

He has said the system was rigged, but that was referring more to the current form of American capitalism rather than the more narrow Democratic National Congress primary.

Many of his supporters believe nothing of the sort mentioned above, so I suggest its a small fraction of his supporters.

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I hope Bernie doesn't run again either.  He will be 79 years old in 2020 and its hard to see someone that old being able to complete 2 terms.  He'd be near 90 towards the end of a hypothetical second term and that is too god damn old to be the president.  Needless to say, the Dems need some fresh meat.  If nothing else Trump proves political experience doesn't mean shit anymore so I think the Dem's should seriously consider fielding a young group of candidates to face the old orange man.  I think that would generate significantly more excitement than carting out a bunch of geriatrics again.  Any elected political experience at all will be more than Trump had and as we saw in the case of Clinton, her political experience was used as a club to beat her with.  A fresher face comes with less pre-packaged attack lines and I think erring on the side of a younger candidate is the best plan for victory against Trump.  

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38 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I never heard Sanders say the primary was rigged, he said the DNC was unfair towards him. Not the same thing at all.

Okay, but he said it.

38 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

He has said the system was rigged, but that was referring more to the current form of American capitalism rather than the more narrow Democratic National Congress primary.

No, he said that the system of the DNC primary - particularly the superdelegates - is rigged.

38 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

Many of his supporters believe nothing of the sort mentioned above, so I suggest its a small fraction of his supporters.

That's certainly true, but enough do that anything short of his winning will mean thinking things are broken in some way, and will have zero reflection about why Sanders actually lost. 

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I see, so he said something more boilerplate about how the system of superdelegates is more biased towards establishment candidates than outsiders including him (something that is SOP for a few cycles now with the DNC) rather than something specific about this particular primary with the Hillary Victory Fund or what have you.

Well, I'm sure it'll take a while for all of us to recover from this blistering criticism, but 2020 is a long ways away.

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Just now, IheartIheartTesla said:

I see, so he said something more boilerplate about how the system of superdelegates is more biased towards establishment candidates than outsiders including him (something that is SOP for a few cycles now with the DNC) rather than something specific about this particular primary with the Hillary Victory Fund or what have you.

Well, I'm sure it'll take a while for all of us to recover from this blistering criticism, but 2020 is a long ways away.

Given that the notion that Brazile thought - and then didn't think - that the system was rigged (and now Warren says it is) was dominating news cycles in 2017, a year and a half after Sanders lost the primary, I think the notion that it isn't a big issue is obviously flawed. Don't underestimate liberals feelings about fairness.

I've toyed with the idea of proposing that the Democrats run everything on open slack servers and have every single bit of communication open to the public, but I suspect it would do more harm than good. 

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They're inserting a rapid rise in taxes on middle income families to offset the untenable deficit they created with their tax cuts for pass through companies and the wealthiest individuals among us. They're also cutting Medicare, despite promising not to.

Here is the bait and switch: their first announcement, which gets all of the loudest media coverage, seems something less than disastrous for middle and low income Americans. Then, like the devious fucks they are, they revise it to raise our taxes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-gop-quietly-changes-tax-bill-to-tax-income-at-higher-rates-over-time/

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12 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I see, so he said something more boilerplate about how the system of superdelegates is more biased towards establishment candidates than outsiders including him (something that is SOP for a few cycles now with the DNC) rather than something specific about this particular primary with the Hillary Victory Fund or what have you.

Well, I'm sure it'll take a while for all of us to recover from this blistering criticism, but 2020 is a long ways away.

What's annoying about it is he still would have lost. And it's that kind of rhetoric that fucks with the confidence of people in the system. The big issue with Sanders to me is he's a far left populist without any real ideas on how he'd actually get anything he says passed. He's not realistic and as we're seeing, more and more primaries are going to the polls and he helps that along. I really hope he doesn't run in 2020, hate that he's positioning himself to run and firmly believe his rhetoric will damage the democratic party in the current hyper partisan world.

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2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 Sanders is unique in that many of his supporters will always believe he was cheated out of the presidency, and if he runs again will believe only that he loses because he was cheated again. If he loses in the primary? Cheated. General? Cheated. That's what they'll spin, and that's entirely on him and his statements and his followers.

I don't see that being the case necessarily with other candidates, mostly because they haven't openly stated the whole system is rigged.

I don’t think you’re being fair to Sanders supporters. Sure, there are some who will always claim the system is rigged against them no matter what, but I think they’re a relatively small minority of his total base. I don’t see it as being all that different from a subsection of Clinton supporters who are looking for any excuse to explain away her loss rather than just accepting that it was by and large because she ran a bad campaign down the stretch. But neither matters anymore. What does is finding a new sense of unity in the Democratic party, and that can’t happen if both camps keep sniping at each other. Sanders supporters need to get it through their head that he lost, whether or not it was a completely fair campaign (and that he would have lost regardless) and Clinton supporters need to quit being so dismissive of Sanders supporters concerns about the process.

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42 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

They're inserting a rapid rise in taxes on middle income families to offset the untenable deficit they created with their tax cuts for pass through companies and the wealthiest individuals among us. They're also cutting Medicare, despite promising not to.

Here is the bait and switch: their first announcement, which gets all of the loudest media coverage, seems something less than disastrous for middle and low income Americans. Then, like the devious fucks they are, they revise it to raise our taxes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-gop-quietly-changes-tax-bill-to-tax-income-at-higher-rates-over-time/

And worse than this, wait until we get a few years down the road when this cut will really start to hamper the budget. Then they'll come out at say there's no money, we're going to have to start making cuts to programs that the poor rely on heavily. All of this is going to fall on the Middle and Lower class. And for what? So the fat cats can squirrel more money away in offshore accounts? Leave an extra 5-10 million to their children? 

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I don’t think you’re being fair to Sanders supporters. Sure, there are some who will always claim the system is rigged against them no matter what, but I think they’re a relatively small minority of his total base. I don’t see it as being all that different from a subsection of Clinton supporters who are looking for any excuse to explain away her loss rather than just accepting that it was by and large because she ran a bad campaign down the stretch.

I might agree with that if not for this Donna Brazile news cycle, which dominated my feed for the last 4 days over things like Trump actively wishing he could use the FBI to prosecute his enemies and demanding the death penalty for someone who hasn't been found guilty yet. 

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

But neither matters anymore. What does is finding a new sense of unity in the Democratic party, and that can’t happen if both camps keep sniping at each other. Sanders supporters need to get it through their head that he lost, whether or not it was a completely fair campaign (and that he would have lost regardless) and Clinton supporters need to quit being so dismissive of Sanders supporters concerns about the process.

Good luck with that.

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18 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

They're inserting a rapid rise in taxes on middle income families to offset the untenable deficit they created with their tax cuts for pass through companies and the wealthiest individuals among us. They're also cutting Medicare, despite promising not to.

Here is the bait and switch: their first announcement, which gets all of the loudest media coverage, seems something less than disastrous for middle and low income Americans. Then, like the devious fucks they are, they revise it to raise our taxes.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/house-gop-quietly-changes-tax-bill-to-tax-income-at-higher-rates-over-time/

Oh there is so much more going on.  Wait until the next markup.  It will be awesome.  and the more we dig into this the more stuff we see.  It's a planning bonanza, but not for the little guy.

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 I didn't realize the whole 11/4 Antifa Apocalypse thing had reached Fox News. I thought this was strictly an InfoWars/Facebook sort of a deal...

 https://www.mediaite.com/online/fox-news-pushed-debunked-antifa-apocalypse-conspiracy-theory-multiple-times/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

 

/Fox and Friends. Lulz. Like you fuckers have any friends.

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16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I might agree with that if not for this Donna Brazile news cycle, which dominated my feed for the last 4 days over things like Trump actively wishing he could use the FBI to prosecute his enemies and demanding the death penalty for someone who hasn't been found guilty yet. 

Good luck with that.

If both sides can’t settle their differences then Trump will win reelection in 2020. What’s more important, feeling like you’re right or defeating him? Because I’d argue that any efforts to make unity more difficult are effectively the equivalent of working for the pro-Trump forces.

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1 hour ago, Mexal said:

What's annoying about it is he still would have lost. And it's that kind of rhetoric that fucks with the confidence of people in the system. The big issue with Sanders to me is he's a far left populist without any real ideas on how he'd actually get anything he says passed. He's not realistic and as we're seeing, more and more primaries are going to the polls and he helps that along. I really hope he doesn't run in 2020, hate that he's positioning himself to run and firmly believe his rhetoric will damage the democratic party in the current hyper partisan world.

Right. Because it's a few comments by Sanders that fucks with people's confidence in the system and not, oh I don't know, the people actually running the system who bankrupted the DNC and people taking advantage of a bankrupt DNC to put a thumb on the scales during the primary and to circumvent campaign finance laws in ways that left state parties clinging to life support...obviously THEY didn't undermine anyone's confidence in the system. It could only be a cranky old Senator from Vermont who has the power to undermine confidence in the system. I should have known all along! I've seen the light!

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I'd be interested in seeing how many sanders supporters actually have voted in a primary before, or even in an election.  I can think of about a dozen friends/acquaintances that were vocal Sanders supporters and raged the most about Hillary and Trump but none of them have ever voted.

I think he managed to appeal to a certain type of person who is politically apathetic, skeptical, and uninvolved (are they volved?).  I don't really know what the Democratic party could do to actually get them out to vote.

But the Clinton's should both stay quiet and Bernie needs to be content with pushing the party left.  And the DNC needs to figure out a way to communicate to the parts of the electorate that aren't policy wonks.  

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I suppose this will be taken in a similar vein to when I posted a Breitbart link the other day, but I have to put this up here. I don't know how many of you are familiar with Ben Garrison political cartoons. These are becoming the 2017 version of Chick Tracts for me. Just absolutely bizarre and laughable, but I can't look away.

 https://grrrgraphics.com/

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19 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I didn't realize the whole 11/4 Antifa Apocalypse thing had reached Fox News. I thought this was strictly an InfoWars/Facebook sort of a deal...

 https://www.mediaite.com/online/fox-news-pushed-debunked-antifa-apocalypse-conspiracy-theory-multiple-times/?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

 

/Fox and Friends. Lulz. Like you fuckers have any friends.

The scary thing about Fox news now picking up things that were previously relegated to infowars is that it gives credibility to things like infowars.  It's terrifying to watch the evolution of family members who were simple run of the mill conservatives who only watched Fox News but kinda sorta weren't all that psycho but who are now actively posting from breitbart and peddling infowars conspiracy theories.  Although, tbf, for my family I think the Vegas murders helped push them in that direction because there have just never been good answers for why it happened.  Still, they were already heading that way too and now that Fox has greenlit this shit, they no longer have to even include caveats like "I usually don't post these sorts of things."

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