I liked Jon Snows flawed leadership in ADWD

[HeartMachine]

Hey y'all I decided to make my first post after lurking for  years . I feel I have an opinion that I don't see shared often ( on this forum more recently at least). 

In ADWD Jon made some terrible decisions ...and I like the character better for it. Hell The only reason I like the character is because of it. 
 

 

A lot of post I see on this topic here (Jon Leadership) are on 2 extremes. The most prominent ones praising the character; Treating him as if he is perfect and has done nothing wrong and sometimes bashing other characters. The other extreme demonizing him and not even trying to understand the pov , sometimes in order to bash for the sake of other characters. Like the those stupid Daenerys vs Jon debates that get shoved into any thread involving at least one of them.

I don't really see people who are fans of Jon,Daenerys or any  of the other characters really that agree to the flaws they have and the flaws they may gain. It seems to always be all or nothing, So I guess I wanted to make this post.

..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 I initially considered Jon to be one of my least favorite characters(not in hateful way, more of a 'meh') as his story seemed to be very typical, but that changed for me  .

 

He is a character who up until this book had his vows and morals tested in ways that only truly affected  him, where he is saved from the mistakes or decisions he made by last minute interventions outsides of his control. Unlike some of the other POV characters, Jon hasn't really had a sort of rebirth. He never had that thing that breaks him down and forces him to build back up. That is not to say he doesn't change throughout the series,because he does. But, he had this typical fantasy male hero arc where he got off scot free from bad situations he was in and dealt with conflicts that were for the most part pretty black and white.

Then he is given a role of leadership that he clearly wasn't experienced enough for, and this rather standard arc came to bite him.

Jon had lived taking large risk and coming out ok. He didn't really deal with the consequences of his actions in a way that really mattered. As well, clinging in the back of Jon's mind is still the same issues( being a bastard,Arya,Winterfell, his father. etc.) that have been sort of tying him down from the potential he has . And I feel this is were a lot of his bad decisions came from in ADWD.

Jon has showed himself to have the potential to be a great leader; I'd  even say that when making decisions that were not practical for the watch he did them in practical ways for the most part, but when he has to make decisions based around his family or his morality he isn't able to really let go of the boy that he was in order to be the leader he needs to be. Too uncompromising to both himself(in terms of the morality his father taught him a stark should have) and to those he considers enemies(due to the harm they did to the family he wasn't able to let go of). This leads to him  making certain decisions that then lead to his attempt to march to winterfell and then his stabbing by Marsh and others. 

 

I understand why Bowen Marsh and the others did what they did  (even though I think it was an unwise decision), and by the watches laws they were in the right to fire him (and themselves  apparently) . But  It's a pretty sad  situation all around. Jon is about 17 from what I remember, An age I think in combination with his background made him not yet ready to lead the night's watch, especially not the watch in its most crucial time were hard decisions need to be made that a teenager shouldn't. .  Having to choose between your family and your morality on one side, and your duty on the other side is pretty fucked up  given he has been bailed out of any reason to have to truly let go of himself in the past. Really screwed up that the only reason he was put into the position to begin with is because of outside intervention. 

 

 

Anyways, I feel that Jon's arc in adwd put a lot of greyness for the walls story and showed a lot of promise for the character going forward and gave him layers that he didn't seem to have before. Perhaps intentionally. 

Honorable but can be unethical, tactful  but can be cold to those he considers enemies,  immature but can be more mature than someone his age usually is, self doubting but confident, patient and analytical but can be reactive and  Intelligent but can be unwise. He seems like someone who burns too hot one moment and becomes too cold the next. 

It feels like by showing Jon having these often conflicting characters traits with his feats and failures and leaving off on cliffhanger there is wide speculation to be made about who he is going to become and what he is going to do. He could end up being cold, unmerciful , and pragmatic or  He could be passionate and wrathful. He might end up doubling down on his love for his family and keeping his morality or he might reject both.  Jon's 'rebirth' whether it's a resurrection or just surviving an attempted stabbing is interesting to me as the amount of growth that can be done from this is grand. 

 Well that's my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IceFire125]

In regards to rulership of what Jon and Dany's will be like... I've always placed the guideline around what GRRM said.

"Sometimes, bad men make good kings (rulers) and good men, bad kings."

Taking away the possible extremes of the spectrum: Maegor and Jaehaerys I.  GRRM have a lot of options to make Jon his answer to JRRT's Aragorn, but in a not-so-plesant way once he is king.  In the eyes of the reader, he will be good, consistent with his character, but other people/characters in universe might not see him as one.

I'm one of those that believe that Jon will be king in the end.  However, it would not be a trouble-free rule, and not all will be happy with him eventually.

Religion: Jon will continue to be a staunch supporter of the old gods.  Once he is king he will pull a Baelor The Blessed towards the favor of the old gods, marking the religion as the official faith of his monarchy.  He will decree that every high born castle owned by noble lords, must allow at least a weirwood to be planted/grown (w/the aid of the CoTF's or Order of the Green Men's magic) for men to worship and pray to.  However, consistent with his character, brought forth in ADWD, he will not force a person to worship the old gods, just like how he allowed brothers of the NW to take their vows in the Sept or in front of a weirwood and just like he would not allow people to make fun of the Red God, R'hllor.

Inheritance/Castles/lands:  Passing them down to people and families who are seen as enemies for a long time.  I'm of the opinion, for the conflict/resolution to come full circle, Jon will allow some families who supported the Blackfyres in the rebellions, to come back home, back to their homes.  This will be seen as nonsense and a cause of revolt to the families that have supported the Targaryen dynasty ever since the first Blackfyre rebellion.  

Marriages: He will marry Dany out of duty and Arya out of desire... to the protest of his own family in the North and of the Seven.

 

[HeartMachine]

31 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

In regards to rulership of what Jon and Dany's will be like... I've always placed the guideline around what GRRM said.

"Sometimes, bad men make good kings (rulers) and good men, bad kings."

Taking away the possible extremes of the spectrum: Maegor and Jaehaerys I.  GRRM have a lot of options to make Jon his answer to JRRT's Aragorn, but in a not-so-plesant way once he is king.  In the eyes of the reader, he will be good, consistent with his character, but other people/characters in universe might not see him as one.

I'm one of those that believe that Jon will be king in the end.  However, it would not be a trouble-free rule, and not all will be happy with him eventually.

Religion: Jon will continue to be a staunch supporter of the old gods.  Once he is king he will pull a Baelor The Blessed towards the favor of the old gods, marking the religion as the official faith of his monarchy.  He will decree that every high born castle owned by noble lords, must allow at least a weirwood to be planted/grown (w/the aid of the CoTF's or Order of the Green Men's magic) for men to worship and pray to.  However, consistent with his character, brought forth in ADWD, he will not force a person to worship the old gods, just like how he allowed brothers of the NW to take their vows in the Sept or in front of a weirwood and just like he would not allow people to make fun of the Red God, R'hllor.

Inheritance/Castles/lands:  Passing them down to people and families who are seen as enemies for a long time.  I'm of the opinion, for the conflict/resolution to come full circle, Jon will allow some families who supported the Blackfyres in the rebellions, to come back home, back to their homes.  This will be seen as nonsense and a cause of revolt to the families that have supported the Targaryen dynasty ever since the first Blackfyre rebellion.  

Marriages: He will marry Dany out of duty and Arya out of desire... to the protest of his own family in the North and of the Seven.

 

I suppose for this topic I always liked the idea that if Jon is meant to be an Aragorn like figure he will lose a lot of his more heroic traits. Not enough that he isn't jon anymore obviously, but the darker aspects of his personality that sort of kept under surface by his fathers teaching and his connection to his family start to come forward. I always figured they guys like Aragorn in reality would be some of the coldest, grey son of a bitches around. You would probably have to be to do all the things they do. Like a living ghost (bum bum tss).Plus I kinda like the idea in fiction that the people who becomes heroes don't usually set out to have heroic traits, I feel it would be interesting option for jon's story. That the high fantasy commander and soldier is kind of cold and closed off and maybe even a somewhat machiavellian figure.

For vague speculation and wishes at least.

 

In any case I would want this to introduce new flaws. Like say Jon is cautious and patient now, maybe he no longer cares for the lives of those under his command since they aren't part of his 'pack'. Perhaps he decides a hostile ful take over the wall and now watches his back extra carefully. Hell if he does end up finding out about his parents, I still want conflict around the legacy of his birth. Whatever the case is I don't want him to come back as the perfect jesus figure who is going to save the world from the big bad others. 

Same as I don't want Daenerys to be the perfect flawless queen who will win every battle and make no mistakes.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

6 hours ago, HeartMachine said:

A lot of post I see on this topic here (Jon Leadership) are on 2 extremes. The most prominent ones praising the character; Treating him as if he is perfect and has done nothing wrong and sometimes bashing other characters. The other extreme demonizing him and not even trying to understand the pov , sometimes in order to bash for the sake of other characters. Like the those stupid Daenerys vs Jon debates that get shoved into any thread involving at least one of them.

This does tend to happen & I can only speak for myself but I find my self arguing the "perfect" Jon side even though I don't really feel that way in an effort to combat the "blind hate" side. 

At any rate the reason I like Jon so much isn't because I think he makes flawless decisions, it's because I understand why he makes the decisions he does. I don't always agree with them but I understand. I wish Bowen & Co hadn't stabbed Jon - not because I don't understand where they are coming from but because I think they don't understand where Jon is coming from. If we had a Bowen Marsh POV I would probably be much more sympathetic to his cause but as it stands we get a good insight into the inner struggle Jon has before making his decision, which to me makes him more sympathetic. 

I agree he has the potential to be a great leader or a terrible one & it will be interesting to see how his character arc is played out. 

5 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Religion: Jon will continue to be a staunch supporter of the old gods.  Once he is king he will pull a Baelor The Blessed towards the favor of the old gods, marking the religion as the official faith of his monarchy.  He will decree that every high born castle owned by noble lords, must allow at least a weirwood to be planted/grown (w/the aid of the CoTF's or Order of the Green Men's magic) for men to worship and pray to.  However, consistent with his character, brought forth in ADWD, he will not force a person to worship the old gods, just like how he allowed brothers of the NW to take their vows in the Sept or in front of a weirwood and just like he would not allow people to make fun of the Red God, R'hllor.

I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. To me it makes no sense for Jon to accept all religions as you say, not force anyone to worship the old gods but then command every castle have a godswood. (Don't most of them have one anyway?) What would be the purpose of doing that? 

I honestly hope Jon doesn't become King. I would rather see him live out the rest of his days with a wife & a bunch of kids running around Winterfell but I'm afraid that's as much of a fairy tale as Jon being King. 

5 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

Marriages: He will marry Dany out of duty and Arya out of desire... to the protest of his own family in the North and of the Seven

I can't see this happening either. I can see him marrying Dany but I don't think it will be only out of duty. I think the ship has sailed for Jon & Arya. I know GRRM originally planned for them to be romantically inclined to one another but the story line that we have isn't set up that way & I for one am glad George seems to have changed his mind. 

[Faera]

8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. To me it makes no sense for Jon to accept all religions as you say, not force anyone to worship the old gods but then command every castle have a godswood. (Don't most of them have one anyway?) What would be the purpose of doing that? 

2

I agree with you. Jon doesn't come across at all as a religious zealot from what I remember of him. In fact, the only reason I can think for him to want to reintroduce weirwood trees or turn them into heart trees would be if - and this is a big if - he learns to see through the weirwoods as Bran does or Bran becomes his Hand or something and he does it to increase his sight across the Seven Kingdoms. Even then, I doubt he will force people to follow his religion nor will he necessarily force people to have heart trees in their godswoods.

6 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

He will marry Dany out of duty and Arya out of desire... to the protest of his own family in the North and of the Seven.

I don't see him marrying anyone within the Stark family (They are effectively his sisters, after all) and while I could see him becoming Dany's final love, I don't see their marriage ending up lasting long. Jon is actually a pretty difficult character to imagine getting married. If he did, I guess I'd like to see him end up with someone relatively normal, like Val. But yeah...

5 hours ago, HeartMachine said:

Hell if he does end up finding out about his parents, I still want conflict around the legacy of his birth. Whatever the case is I don't want him to come back as the perfect jesus figure who is going to save the world from the big bad others. 

A part of me wonders if he starts to sympathise with the Others if he is resurrected. Like you, I would like to see conflict surrounding his birth but I would prefer it to be centred around other people trying to rally around him and put him into power. As for whether Jon will want to go after his birthright in a Dance of the Dragons style fight against Dany or Aegon or both will all depend on how he might change during his time inside Ghost.

[Tygett Lannister]

Jon is a meh POV for me just like Dany. And it is completely true that often good men make bad kings and bad men good kings. But to be fair his decisions about his family are beneficial for the Watch as well. Boltons will not help the watch while Stannis did so they need to be removed and replaced. Once this is done North will be able to help the Watch as Watch helped them.

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

A part of me wonders if he starts to sympathise with the Others if he is resurrected.

This could actually be great. At this point, readers have been led to think of the Others as an implacable enemy with the goal of destroying all human life, assisted by vast armies of the nameless, unfeeling, unthinking dead. Someone needs to ask - and learn - what's with the invasion? What do the Others want? Why now? Has there been a misunderstanding? Can there be some compromise? You know, the same things we use today to forestall war.

There's a theory that, if Jon's consciousness has taken refuge in Ghost and will eventually be returned to Jon's body, he will have adopted more of the wolf's point of view. Everyone is just meat. The pack survives. But then, Ghost really is a "lone wolf", so maybe that.

When Jon was ordered to become a wildling, his insights and understanding led to bringing tens of thousands of them across the Wall, and trying to rescue those trapped at Hardhome, thus gaining troops to help fight the Others and eliminating what had become, for the Watch, their only threat to the kingdom of men. A bold, visionary, and merciful action. He also gained the assistance of the remaing giants, with their mammoths.

I've always liked the character of Jon Snow. While many are turned off by his broodiness, I see a boy who's spent his life being rejected by his mother figure, Catelyn, and unlike most of his step-brothers and sister. Yet he's done well in learning Ned's decency; he's competent at arms and getting better, he pulled himself out of his funk once at the Wall and started acting like a friend and leader for commoner boys who had no mentor or champion and were under the sneering thumb of Alliser Thorne. Plus, he performed so well that the entirety of the Watch ended up electing him Lord Commander, despite his age and a massive thumb-on-the-scale effort by Tywin Lannister as executed by the Slynt-Marsh-Thorne cabal.

At this point, I just hope Jon's not permanently dead. Or worse - that he comes back like Lady Stoneheart.

[HeartMachine]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

 

There's a theory that, if Jon's consciousness has taken refuge in Ghost and will eventually be returned to Jon's body, he will have adopted more of the wolf's point of view. Everyone is just meat. The pack survives. But then, Ghost really is a "lone wolf", so maybe that.

 

I'm glad you said that as it something I think about with this theory . I mean sure we can say Jon will take on more wolf like traits, but specifically he would take on the traits that ghost has. 

[HeartMachine]

7 hours ago, Faera said:

 

A part of me wonders if he starts to sympathise with the Others if he is resurrected. Like you, I would like to see conflict surrounding his birth but I would prefer it to be centred around other people trying to rally around him and put him into power. As for whether Jon will want to go after his birthright in a Dance of the Dragons style fight against Dany or Aegon or both will all depend on how he might change during his time inside Ghost.

 

 

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This does tend to happen & I can only speak for myself but I find my self arguing the "perfect" Jon side even though I don't really feel that way in an effort to combat the "blind hate" side. 

At any rate the reason I like Jon so much isn't because I think he makes flawless decisions, it's because I understand why he makes the decisions he does. I don't always agree with them but I understand. I wish Bowen & Co hadn't stabbed Jon - not because I don't understand where they are coming from but because I think they don't understand where Jon is coming from. If we had a Bowen Marsh POV I would probably be much more sympathetic to his cause but as it stands we get a good insight into the inner struggle Jon has before making his decision, which to me makes him more sympathetic. 

I agree he has the potential to be a great leader or a terrible one & it will be interesting to see how his character arc is played out. 

 

I can agree with this for sure

[Quoth the raven,]

I confess to being a hater of Jon Snow.  I really do not like the character.  His leadership is more than flawed.  We see the tragedy that happens when someone like Jon is put in charge.  You say you have been lurking and reading.  Then you know that the way Jon handled the Slynt-Mance situation was a travesty to justice.  He let an even bigger and much more evil criminal walk just because it served his personal needs, that is to steal his sister away.  Jon lacked professional ethics.  

I know there are some people who would make the same decisions that Jon did.  And they would be just as wrong as Jon.  A regular guy putting the safety of his own sister over that of millions of people is a jackass.  A commander who willingly took an oath to serve the greater good doing the same thing is guilty of the highest treason.  Jon does not have the makings of a leader, much less a ruler. 

[acwill07]

I LOL at anyone who believes that Jon Snow is going to end up romantically involved with Arya.  There is zero evidence to support that and it's simply not going to happen.  They love each other like a sister and a brother do under normal circumstances.  

[Lord Varys]

It definitely made him more interesting to read. Nothing is as boring as someone who gets always right. On a personal level Dany and Jon are both pretty interesting in ADwD than in the previous books. The trouble with Jon's chapters is more that he is at the end of the world, and not exactly interesting interacting with many important characters.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

57 minutes ago, Quoth the raven, said:

I confess to being a hater of Jon Snow.  I really do not like the character.  His leadership is more than flawed.  We see the tragedy that happens when someone like Jon is put in charge.  You say you have been lurking and reading.  Then you know that the way Jon handled the Slynt-Mance situation was a travesty to justice.  He let an even bigger and much more evil criminal walk just because it served his personal needs, that is to steal his sister away.  Jon lacked professional ethics.  

I know there are some people who would make the same decisions that Jon did.  And they would be just as wrong as Jon.  A regular guy putting the safety of his own sister over that of millions of people is a jackass.  A commander who willingly took an oath to serve the greater good doing the same thing is guilty of the highest treason.  Jon does not have the makings of a leader, much less a ruler. 

I think the differences us non Jon haters see in the Mance/Slynt situation is 

1. Janos Slynt is a no good POS trying to do the Lannister's bidding who refused a direct order from his Lord Commander after being a dick his whole time on the wall

Mance is generally a good guy that cares about the well being of his people & deserted from the NW long before Jon was ever in the NW let alone LC

Doesn't make one crime any more or less punishable than the other, just makes one guy more likable than the other, one guy more understandable than the other

2. Janos Slynt is under the direct command of Lord Commander Jon Snow

Mance Rayder is a prisoner of Melisandre &/or Stannis depending on whether or not you think Stannis knew/knows about the Mance switch. 

Jon didn't choose to give Mance a pass, he thought he was dead - hell he thought he killed him. By the time he realizes he isn't dead he can't really do anything about it without causing discord between him self & Stannis/Mel or the King & Queens men/Wildlings/Men of the NW. 

As far as Jon putting his sisters safety above that of the greater good:

Jon knew Ramsay didn't have Arya or he wouldn't have been telling Jon to send his bride back so Jon's decision wasn't made based on the safety of his sister. If the safety of his sister were his main or only concern he could have saved himself alot of trouble & sent out a party of men to look for her - knowing she wasn't with Ramsay he would probably assume she was somewhere on the trek from WF to the Wall. 

[Makk]

I don't really think Jon made that many mistakes, generally his leadership was inspired given an almost impossible set of conditions. He is forward thinking planning for the future, has significantly strengthened the nightswatch and removed a threat (wildlings), gained allies in the Karstaks, and given Stannis the tools to defeat the Boltons (mountain clans, knowledge of Karstark treachery).

I do believe he was hypocritical (though that is a character flaw, not a tactical mistake) in telling his men they needed to make peace with all wildlings while not trying to pursue peace with the Boltons. He clearly made a mistake in trusting his men and allowing himself to be killed, though the way and time they did that was truly bizarre.

While reading the books I thought his biggest mistake was the wasteful use of ships and men to try and retrieve the wildlings at Hardhome. It took me quite a long time to realise that we don't actually know that has been a failure, we are trusting Melisandres visions and they are notoriously wrong.

I didn't really like Jon in the first three books, I thought he was a bit bland. But really loved his character in Dance, can't wait to see what happens next.

 

 

[HeartMachine]

6 hours ago, Quoth the raven, said:

I confess to being a hater of Jon Snow.  I really do not like the character.  His leadership is more than flawed.  We see the tragedy that happens when someone like Jon is put in charge.  You say you have been lurking and reading.  Then you know that the way Jon handled the Slynt-Mance situation was a travesty to justice.  He let an even bigger and much more evil criminal walk just because it served his personal needs, that is to steal his sister away.  Jon lacked professional ethics.  

I know there are some people who would make the same decisions that Jon did.  And they would be just as wrong as Jon.  A regular guy putting the safety of his own sister over that of millions of people is a jackass.  A commander who willingly took an oath to serve the greater good doing the same thing is guilty of the highest treason.  Jon does not have the makings of a leader, much less a ruler. 

I don't know this seems kinda flimsy. Despite the mistakes he made he definitely showed qualities that would be great in a leader, sometimes even in the bad decisions he made based off of his heart. 

Plus I think the whole expectation on Jon considering his age and what exactly he is being asked to do given his background is kinda ridiculous. Yeah it is pretty Tragic both for him and the wall, I mean personally I don't think someone is a jack ass  for being a teen  who leans towards his family more than the realm. Mainly I always felt that in fiction when people expect a character to sacrifice a loved one for the sake others there is never really a right answer. After all, Why should sacrifice someone they love for the sake of a world that love will die or suffer in? 

I suppose for Jon at this point in time the realm is nameless, but Arya is close to the heart. regardless of what he should have done I can sympathise with that. 

The whole opinion on it just tries to make it so black and white; Where the arc is grey all around. Just as most of the series is. The idea of 'hating' any of the POVs is strange to me. It just seems limiting going forward and against some of the ideals the series is about. Like if a character someone hates does change for the better will they even acknowledge it? The same with characters a person loves to a degree they minimize their faults, existing and potential. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 11/5/2017 at 1:56 AM, HeartMachine said:

Hey y'all I decided to make my first post after lurking for  years . I feel I have an opinion that I don't see shared often ( on this forum more recently at least). 

In ADWD Jon made some terrible decisions ...and I like the character better for it. Hell The only reason I like the character is because of it. 
 

 

A lot of post I see on this topic here (Jon Leadership) are on 2 extremes. The most prominent ones praising the character; Treating him as if he is perfect and has done nothing wrong and sometimes bashing other characters. The other extreme demonizing him and not even trying to understand the pov , sometimes in order to bash for the sake of other characters. Like the those stupid Daenerys vs Jon debates that get shoved into any thread involving at least one of them.

I don't really see people who are fans of Jon,Daenerys or any  of the other characters really that agree to the flaws they have and the flaws they may gain. It seems to always be all or nothing, So I guess I wanted to make this post.

..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 I initially considered Jon to be one of my least favorite characters(not in hateful way, more of a 'meh') as his story seemed to be very typical, but that changed for me  .

 

He is a character who up until this book had his vows and morals tested in ways that only truly affected  him, where he is saved from the mistakes or decisions he made by last minute interventions outsides of his control. Unlike some of the other POV characters, Jon hasn't really had a sort of rebirth. He never had that thing that breaks him down and forces him to build back up. That is not to say he doesn't change throughout the series,because he does. But, he had this typical fantasy male hero arc where he got off scot free from bad situations he was in and dealt with conflicts that were for the most part pretty black and white.

Then he is given a role of leadership that he clearly wasn't experienced enough for, and this rather standard arc came to bite him.

Jon had lived taking large risk and coming out ok. He didn't really deal with the consequences of his actions in a way that really mattered. As well, clinging in the back of Jon's mind is still the same issues( being a bastard,Arya,Winterfell, his father. etc.) that have been sort of tying him down from the potential he has . And I feel this is were a lot of his bad decisions came from in ADWD.

Jon has showed himself to have the potential to be a great leader; I'd  even say that when making decisions that were not practical for the watch he did them in practical ways for the most part, but when he has to make decisions based around his family or his morality he isn't able to really let go of the boy that he was in order to be the leader he needs to be. Too uncompromising to both himself(in terms of the morality his father taught him a stark should have) and to those he considers enemies(due to the harm they did to the family he wasn't able to let go of). This leads to him  making certain decisions that then lead to his attempt to march to winterfell and then his stabbing by Marsh and others. 

 

I understand why Bowen Marsh and the others did what they did  (even though I think it was an unwise decision), and by the watches laws they were in the right to fire him (and themselves  apparently) . But  It's a pretty sad  situation all around. Jon is about 17 from what I remember, An age I think in combination with his background made him not yet ready to lead the night's watch, especially not the watch in its most crucial time were hard decisions need to be made that a teenager shouldn't. .  Having to choose between your family and your morality on one side, and your duty on the other side is pretty fucked up  given he has been bailed out of any reason to have to truly let go of himself in the past. Really screwed up that the only reason he was put into the position to begin with is because of outside intervention. 

 

 

Anyways, I feel that Jon's arc in adwd put a lot of greyness for the walls story and showed a lot of promise for the character going forward and gave him layers that he didn't seem to have before. Perhaps intentionally. 

Honorable but can be unethical, tactful  but can be cold to those he considers enemies,  immature but can be more mature than someone his age usually is, self doubting but confident, patient and analytical but can be reactive and  Intelligent but can be unwise. He seems like someone who burns too hot one moment and becomes too cold the next. 

It feels like by showing Jon having these often conflicting characters traits with his feats and failures and leaving off on cliffhanger there is wide speculation to be made about who he is going to become and what he is going to do. He could end up being cold, unmerciful , and pragmatic or  He could be passionate and wrathful. He might end up doubling down on his love for his family and keeping his morality or he might reject both.  Jon's 'rebirth' whether it's a resurrection or just surviving an attempted stabbing is interesting to me as the amount of growth that can be done from this is grand. 

 Well that's my 2 cents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The majority of the arguments in this forum is not whether to like Jon or not.  That is a matter of perssonal preference.  The argument really comes down to whether Jon committed treason and whether Bowen Marsh was right to fire him.  Feel free to like Jon all you want.  I despise him even before ADWD.  

Flawed is an understatement to describe his leadership.  Jon was incompetent, not ethical, very partial, and guilty of treason.  I find it funny that his fans accuse Bowen Marsh of prejudice when it is Jon who showed obvious bias and partiality in the way he handled Janos Slynt's misbehavior.  Proper punishment for Slynt?  Send him to the cells for a few days.  

Jon's partiality was also in evidence because he didn't try hard enough to reach out to the Boltons.  He should have put aside the Starks and what happened to them to reach out to the Boltons.  Arya's marriage was none of his concern.  He had more important matters to deal with.

[zandru]

8 hours ago, HeartMachine said:

The idea of 'hating' any of the POVs is strange to me. It just seems limiting going forward and against some of the ideals the series is about.

This is a great thing to keep in mind! (And I will, considering I'm one of the worst offenders myself.)

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon's partiality was also in evidence because he didn't try hard enough to reach out to the Boltons.

You're assuming Ramsey Snow, even Roose Bolton, are not actually treacherous backstabbing flayers who have no moral brakes on getting what they want. No compromises. Please re-read the "pink letter" - does this sound like a man to "reach out" to? Remember, Ser Roderick did exactly that - and got his hand slashed off.

[The Commentator]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It definitely made him more interesting to read. Nothing is as boring as someone who gets always right. On a personal level Dany and Jon are both pretty interesting in ADwD than in the previous books. The trouble with Jon's chapters is more that he is at the end of the world, and not exactly interesting interacting with many important characters.

It made him less of bore but it didn't make me like him. What his chapters in ADWD did is give Jon's critics like me more reasons to dislike him.  What I am hoping for is those chapters in ADWD are his last.  We should get a different POV character at the wall instead.  

[zandru]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

We should get a different POV character at the wall instead.  

Well, since Samwell left for Oldtown and Jon died, that would seem to wipe out the wall points of view. Except maybe Melisandre. Who else would be good candidates? Tormund? Ser Alliser when he returns? I'd like to see Shireen, but don't think she's long for this world. Wun Wun would be REALLY interesting - also Ghost.

[The Commentator]

1 minute ago, zandru said:

Well, since Samwell left for Oldtown and Jon died, that would seem to wipe out the wall points of view. Except maybe Melisandre. Who else would be good candidates? Tormund? Ser Alliser when he returns? I'd like to see Shireen, but don't think she's long for this world. Wun Wun would be REALLY interesting - also Ghost.

Alliser