Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: The main problem is that the Vale is a Kingdom that has been rule by the Arryns for 1000+ years. Tradition means much to the Lord of the Vale. Jon Arryn is dead, Robert Arryn is dead. Keeping Lysa in power accomplishes nothing. She is not an Arryn. And she is a madwoman. There is someone with Arryn blood and looks, however. Harold Hardyng. The issue with this is that Lysa is an Arryn by marriage while Harold Hardying is a Hardying by birth and thus not an Arryn at all. He'll only become an Arryn by adoption so if its absolutely crucial to have an Arryn in the Eyrie, then Lysa is a better bet than Harold. And Lysa being a madwoman, well, so far that hasn't really stopped people from supporting her. And I don't really see the hate that would make so many people eager to off Lysa. The real argument that I can see that would work to gather enough lords of the Vale to arms would be that Lysa is a woman and no proper Andal nobleman will want to serve a woman as his liege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: The issue with this is that Lysa is an Arryn by marriage while Harold Hardying is a Hardying by birth and thus not an Arryn at all. He'll only become an Arryn by adoption so if its absolutely crucial to have an Arryn in the Eyrie, then Lysa is a better bet than Harold. And Lysa being a madwoman, well, so far that hasn't really stopped people from supporting her. And I don't really see the hate that would make so many people eager to off Lysa. The real argument that I can see that would work to gather enough lords of the Vale to arms would be that Lysa is a woman and no proper Andal nobleman will want to serve a woman as his liege. Exactly. She is anArryn in name only Just like Elia Martell was a Targaryen in name only. And the Vale only followed her because tradition demanded they did, along with Petyr Baelish .Plot Armor. With Robert Arryn dead, they would have no duty or obligation to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: Exactly. She is anArryn in name only Just like Elia Martell was a Targaryen in name only. And the Vale only followed her because tradition demanded they did, along with Petyr Baelish .Plot Armor. With Robert Arryn dead, they would have no duty or obligation to her. Not really. They have about as much duty and obligation to her as they had to Lord Jon Arryn. They certainly have more duty and obligation to Lysa than they do to Harold Hardying who isn't even an Arryn by name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 52 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: Not really. They have about as much duty and obligation to her as they had to Lord Jon Arryn. They certainly have more duty and obligation to Lysa than they do to Harold Hardying who isn't even an Arryn by name. No they don't. Jon Arryn is dead, with no heir of his body. Certainly they have an obligation to see to her well being, but not to follow her rule. You don't want to admit this because you don' want ton picture a scenario where the Lannisters are at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 7 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: No they don't. Jon Arryn is dead, with no heir of his body. Certainly they have an obligation to see to her well being, but not to follow her rule. You don't want to admit this because you don' want ton picture a scenario where the Lannisters are at a disadvantage. We have seen many wives take over after their husbands have passed away in Westeros when there was no heir around. And its not that I don't want to see a development potentially negative for House Lannister but that I think that women are players in the game though and that women don't lose on default in the Game of Thrones when they can't, or won't, attach themselves to a man. Therefor I don't think that its a given that Lysa will be thrown out if Robert Arryn dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 9, 2017 Author Share Posted November 9, 2017 4 hours ago, LionoftheWest said: We have seen many wives take over after their husbands have passed away in Westeros when there was no heir around. And its not that I don't want to see a development potentially negative for House Lannister but that I think that women are players in the game though and that women don't lose on default in the Game of Thrones when they can't, or won't, attach themselves to a man. Therefor I don't think that its a given that Lysa will be thrown out if Robert Arryn dies. True. But those were not Kingdoms. And those women had the capacity to rule Lysa is a madwoman. And the Vale is an kingdom, which she has no right to rule. Believing that she will continue to rule is delusional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 12 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: True. But those were not Kingdoms. And those women had the capacity to rule Lysa is a madwoman. And the Vale is an kingdom, which she has no right to rule. Believing that she will continue to rule is delusional. Stop doing that. Harrold has the better claim because of his relation to Jon Arryn by blood and primogeniture succession laws. He is also a young bawdy knight while Lysa is a thin weak woman. But since Eyrie is so hard to get to and there isn't many Lords there she could hide death of Robin and would continue to rule in his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said: Stop doing that. Harrold has the better claim because of his relation to Jon Arryn by blood and primogeniture succession laws. He is also a young bawdy knight while Lysa is a thin weak woman. But since Eyrie is so hard to get to and there isn't many Lords there she could hide death of Robin and would continue to rule in his name. Plus the fact that Jon chose Harrold. I thought Lysa was fat in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Plus the fact that Jon chose Harrold. I thought Lysa was fat in the books. When did he choose Harrold? Oh yeah sorry wasn't sure where she is fat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 16 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: True. But those were not Kingdoms. And those women had the capacity to rule Lysa is a madwoman. And the Vale is an kingdom, which she has no right to rule. Believing that she will continue to rule is delusional. Not really. I fail to see why it would make a big difference. Rhaenyra managed to gather support for her bid for the Iron Throne so why wouldn't Lysa manage to win support for her bid for the Eyrie? Delusional would be to expect that everyone will just bow down to Lysa, which they obviously won't, and the odds may even be against Lysa. But that don't mean that she will lose out by default, especially when we see how Littlefinger plays the Lords of the Vale and we know that Littlefinger will try to keep Lysa in power. Its really not unreasonable that he will travel to the Vale in order to support her cause behind the scenes. 19 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Plus the fact that Jon chose Harrold. I thought Lysa was fat in the books. If Jon Arryn chose Harold that would change a great deal. But my question is then if you have some kind of quotes or such for this? I always thought that Robert Arryn was Jon's heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 I guess I meant that Jon chose Harrold as Robert’s heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 37 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: Not really. I fail to see why it would make a big difference. Rhaenyra managed to gather support for her bid for the Iron Throne so why wouldn't Lysa manage to win support for her bid for the Eyrie? Delusional would be to expect that everyone will just bow down to Lysa, which they obviously won't, and the odds may even be against Lysa. But that don't mean that she will lose out by default, especially when we see how Littlefinger plays the Lords of the Vale and we know that Littlefinger will try to keep Lysa in power. Its really not unreasonable that he will travel to the Vale in order to support her cause behind the scenes. If Jon Arryn chose Harold that would change a great deal. But my question is then if you have some kind of quotes or such for this? I always thought that Robert Arryn was Jon's heir. Rhaenrya had a blood claim to the Iron Throne. If she didn't, then none would have supported her. Lysa is not an Arryn in blood, only in name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said: I guess I meant that Jon chose Harrold as Robert’s heir. I think people just started to call him Harry the Heir since Lysa and Jon had problems with having a child and later Sweet Robin is sickly and weak and he is heir by laws of successions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 10, 2017 Share Posted November 10, 2017 9 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: Rhaenrya had a blood claim to the Iron Throne. If she didn't, then none would have supported her. Lysa is not an Arryn in blood, only in name. Rhaenyra had the advantage of being a direct daugher of the king, being the chosen heir and a known public figure throughout her entire life. All of that makes her known and makes people take her claim more seriously. Lysa is an Arryn unlike Harold who is a Hardying, Lysa has been in the Eyrie for some time while Harold don't seem to be a very well known figure and is known by the Lords of the Vale as Lady Arryn of the Eyrie and she actually has some experience with ruling from the Eyrie. Unlike Harold who has little ruling experience to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 10, 2017 Author Share Posted November 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: Rhaenyra had the advantage of being a direct daugher of the king, being the chosen heir and a known public figure throughout her entire life. All of that makes her known and makes people take her claim more seriously. Lysa is an Arryn unlike Harold who is a Hardying, Lysa has been in the Eyrie for some time while Harold don't seem to be a very well known figure and is known by the Lords of the Vale as Lady Arryn of the Eyrie and she actually has some experience with ruling from the Eyrie. Unlike Harold who has little ruling experience to my knowledge. Lysa is an Arryn in name only. In Westeros, blood claims are what matter. That is why Cersei must rely on her children. The moment they are gone, she loses her claim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: Lysa is an Arryn in name only. In Westeros, blood claims are what matter. That is why Cersei must rely on her children. The moment they are gone, she loses her claim Tell that to the ladies Dustin, Hornwood, Lannister (in the form of Joanna Lannister after and during the Dance of the Dragons) and Whent. They seem to rule pretty well regardless of not having a blood claim on their seats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daenerys Targaryen's slave Posted November 11, 2017 Author Share Posted November 11, 2017 18 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said: Tell that to the ladies Dustin, Hornwood, Lannister (in the form of Joanna Lannister after and during the Dance of the Dragons) and Whent. They seem to rule pretty well regardless of not having a blood claim on their seats. Yes, but the Vale is a Kingdom, Lysa is a madwoman, and there are claimants with blood ties to House Arryn, sheisn't one. Honestly. It's delusional to believe she'll not be deposed as quickly as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted November 11, 2017 Share Posted November 11, 2017 2 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said: Yes, but the Vale is a Kingdom, Lysa is a madwoman, and there are claimants with blood ties to House Arryn, sheisn't one. Honestly. It's delusional to believe she'll not be deposed as quickly as possible. What difference is there between a lordship and a former kingdom lordship? Joanna Lanniser ruled the West perfectly well after Jason Lannister's death so obviously it can be done. I'm sure many will want to depose Lysa but the question is if there will be enough of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaegon the dragonless Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 But the fact his that Harry is the heir to Robert Arryn. So when he dies Harrold takes over and change is name to Arryn. That would happen if Robert dies in the current timeline, why would it be different before this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapho Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 If Lysa's claims were hopeless, why did she have so many suitors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.