Night's Watch Lord Commander Timeline Issue

[Corvo the Crow]

Just a small thing I've noticed

Below is Jon, talking with Mance about their first encounter:

Quote

By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I've seen it before. Twice."

It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. "When you were a brother of the Watch . . ."

"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."

 

And below is Tyrion, talking with the Old Bear about NW:

Quote

Tyrion seated himself and took a sip of wine. "If a man paints a target on his chest, he should expect that sooner or later someone will loose an arrow at him. I have seen dead men with more humor than your Ser Alliser."

"Not so," objected the Lord Steward, Bowen Marsh, a man as round and red as a pomegranate. "You ought to hear the droll names he gives the lads he trains."

Tyrion had heard a few of those droll names. "I'll wager the lads have a few names for him as well," he said. "Chip the ice off your eyes, my good lords. Ser Alliser Thorne should be mucking out your stables, not drilling your young warriors.""The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

"None taken, Ser Jaremy. My father is very fond of spiked heads, especially those of people who have annoyed him in some fashion. And a face as noble as yours, well, no doubt he saw you decorating the city wall above the King's Gate. I think you would have looked very striking up there."

 

So Qorgyle is LC while Jon and Robb are kids but somehow Mormont is LC when Rykker and Thorne takes the black for defending King's Landing, which happened before either was born (according to common knowledge at least)

[aryagonnakill#2]

This has been discussed before.  IDK if GRRM has ever commented on it, but it seems like a simple mistake, either on Georges part or Mormonts.  He is an old men remembering events that took place a decade ago.  The most likely scenario to me is that Mormont was on the wall, just not the Lord Commander yet.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So Qorgyle is LC while Jon and Robb are kids but somehow Mormont is LC when Rykker and Thorne takes the black for defending King's Landing, which happened before either was born (according to common knowledge at least)

I don't understand the conflict.  Mance first sees Jon when he rides escort for Qorgyle and then sees him a second time disguised as a bard at Robert's feast in Winterfell.  Joer Mormont served under Qorgyle for time before succeeding him in 288.  I'm not sure what this has to do with Rykker and Thorne taking the black.  

What I do find interesting is that LC Qorgyle travels with an escort of twelve men, making the LC the 13th member of the party.  This is a subtle reminder of the story of the Night's King, the 13th Lord Commander.  I wonder if Joramun was also a member of the Watch who flew down from the Wall to join the Wildlngs like Mance.    

[Faera]

We know George has made some author errors a few times, with Bran not being at the feast at Winterfell for King Robert's arrival and Jeyne Westerling's hips being the biggest ones I can remember off the top of my head, but if you want a canon reason for the disparity the Mormont's age is very likely.

[aryagonnakill#2]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't understand the conflict.  Mance first sees Jon when he rides escort for Qorgyle and then sees him a second time disguised as a bard at Robert's feast in Winterfell.  Joer Mormont served under Qorgyle for time before succeeding him in 288.  I'm not sure what this has to do with Rykker and Thorne taking the black.  

What I do find interesting is that LC Qorgyle travels with an escort of twelve men, making the LC the 13th member of the party.  This is a subtle reminder of the story of the Night's King, the 13th Lord Commander.  I wonder if Joramun was also a member of the Watch who flew down from the Wall to join the Wildlngs like Mance.    

Thorne was sent to the wall after Roberts rebellion, and he would not have needed to train long to become a sworn brother, so Mormont is saying he was LC shortly after Roberts Rebellion.  Yet according to Mance Qorgyle was still LC years after the rebellion when they came to visit WF.

[LynnS]

Qorgyle died in 288 and Mormont succeeded him that year.  So Thorne went to the Wall sometime shortly after 283 when the wiki says that Qorgyle was still LC.  This is the statement causing the problem:

"Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing." 

Yes I see how this is confusing.  This could also read: Since I have been Lord Commander, there have been no other knights to take the black; the last knight who came to the Watch was Ser Alliser after Robert's Rebellion.

[ChuckPunch]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't understand the conflict.  Mance first sees Jon when he rides escort for Qorgyle and then sees him a second time disguised as a bard at Robert's feast in Winterfell.  Joer Mormont served under Qorgyle for time before succeeding him in 288.  I'm not sure what this has to do with Rykker and Thorne taking the black.  

What I do find interesting is that LC Qorgyle travels with an escort of twelve men, making the LC the 13th member of the party.  This is a subtle reminder of the story of the Night's King, the 13th Lord Commander.  I wonder if Joramun was also a member of the Watch who flew down from the Wall to join the Wildlngs like Mance.    

And the last hero with his 12 buddies. 

[Megorova]

Qorgile died in 288, and was replaced by Jeor, it was 5 years after Robert's rebellion.

Either Alliser for those 5 years was in prison; or he was in exile away from Westeros; or he was serving thru some other punishment; or immediately after rebellion he was sort of forgiven, but later he caused some troubles for someone powerful, and that person used Alliser's past to convince authorities to sent him to The Wall; or there were some circumstances because of which his exile to The Wall was postponed for a few years, for example he was a sole supporter of his family, and he was given some time to stay with them, until his old parents died, or something like that; or he had a debt, and before he was sent to The Wall, he worked for a few years for that person, to repay what he owns; or he was hiding for a few years, or keeping low profile, hoping that people will forget that he participated in rebellion, but eventually authorities caught him. 

And only after that, he went/was sent to The Wall.

 

 

[Adam Yozza]

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Either Alliser for those 5 years was in prison; or he was in exile away from Westeros; or he was serving thru some other punishment; or immediately after rebellion he was sort of forgiven, but later he caused some troubles for someone powerful, and that person used Alliser's past to convince authorities to sent him to The Wall; or there were some circumstances because of which his exile to The Wall was postponed for a few years, for example he was a sole supporter of his family, and he was given some time to stay with them, until his old parents died, or something like that; or he had a debt, and before he was sent to The Wall, he worked for a few years for that person, to repay what he owns; or he was hiding for a few years, or keeping low profile, hoping that people will forget that he participated in rebellion, but eventually authorities caught him. 

And only after that, he went/was sent to The Wall.

 

 

Nope, I'm pretty sure he was sent to the Wall by Tywin for supporting the Targaryen's and (most likely) refusing to surrender during the sack; sort of like Desmond Grell and Robin Ryger, except their alternative was serving the Frey's, not death.

Far more likely George just made a mistake. Canon, Mormont is an old man remembering an event more than a decade prior and the specifics weren't all that important. The point he wanted to make (that the Watch has very few annointed and experienced knights) was still made.

[Livesundersink]

On 06/11/2017 at 1:06 AM, Faera said:

with Bran not being at the feast at Winterfell for King Robert's arrival

Was there no mention of him at the feast?

[Faera]

8 hours ago, Livesundersink said:

Was there no mention of him at the feast?

Nope. Jon watches the whole family walk in a long with members of the royal family - even Rickon - but no mention of Bran. It might have been fixed in the most recent reprint (I don't have it so I don't know) but he's definitely not mentioned at all in my copy. Bran later remembers being there in either ACoK or ASoS that he was there, so it was definitely an author error.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 hours ago, Faera said:

Nope. Jon watches the whole family walk in a long with members of the royal family - even Rickon - but no mention of Bran. It might have been fixed in the most recent reprint (I don't have it so I don't know) but he's definitely not mentioned at all in my copy. Bran later remembers being there in either ACoK or ASoS that he was there, so it was definitely an author error.

It was an author error.

Bran Missing from Feast

[Summary: In a response to Arion214 asking why Bran did not appear at the feast in Winterfell early in _A Game of Thrones_.]

Pam, thanks for your post, and all the kind words about A GAME OF THRONES and "The Hedge Knight."

As to your question about Bran... well, he =is= present at the banquet, of course. Jon doesn't mention him, that's true, but of course there are hundreds of others who are present as well that Jon also fails to mention... and Bran is an everyday familiar sight to Jon, who is likely more curious about the guests... the king and queen, their children, the Lion and the Imp.

That's one explanation, anyway.

The other one is that the author just slipped up and neglected to mention him.

But either way, he =was= there, definitely. There's even a moment in A CLASH OF KINGS when he thinks back on that feast.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/947

[John Suburbs]

There is also the bit about Arya at the docks after Ned is taken prisoner, even though the gates are closed and the docks are outside the Mud Gate.

Nightsoil happens.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 11/5/2017 at 9:48 AM, LynnS said:

I don't understand the conflict.  Mance first sees Jon when he rides escort for Qorgyle and then sees him a second time disguised as a bard at Robert's feast in Winterfell.  Joer Mormont served under Qorgyle for time before succeeding him in 288.  I'm not sure what this has to do with Rykker and Thorne taking the black.  

The conflict is that Mormont is claiming that Thorne took the black while he was Lord Commander, but Mormont couldn't have been Lord Commander yet when Thorne took the black. So I guess Mormont is either remembering wrong, or it is just a mistake. 

[Clegane'sPup]

On 11/5/2017 at 9:30 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Just a small thing I've noticed

Below is Jon, talking with Mance about their first encounter:

 

And below is Tyrion, talking with the Old Bear about NW:

 

So Qorgyle is LC while Jon and Robb are kids but somehow Mormont is LC when Rykker and Thorne takes the black for defending King's Landing, which happened before either was born (according to common knowledge at least)

Appears Qorgyle died 288 and Mormont was elected 288.  Do ya tink dat Rykker and Thorne were at the Wall before Mormont decided to take the black?

edit: Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander.

since: in the intervening period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration, typically the present.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

On ‎08‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 2:20 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

Appears Qorgyle died 288 and Mormont was elected 288.  Do ya tink dat Rykker and Thorne were at the Wall before Mormont decided to take the black?

edit: Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander.

since: in the intervening period between (the time mentioned) and the time under consideration, typically the present.

 

You raise another good point. It is very likely Mormont also took the black after the Rebellion, most likely after Balon is defeated and around the time Jorah marries Lynesse so yes, Old Bear joined the watch after these two.