Why didn’t the other valerian families bring over dragons?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Laenor Velaryon. Laena Velaryon. Rhaenys "Velaryon". Rhaenyra "Velaryon". Jacaerys Velaryon. Lucerys Velaryon. Joffrey Velaryon. And yes, Addam.

Royce? Depends on what surname Bronze Bitch's househusband went by.

And Farman... there is that "more than fond of" Androw Farman. We do not hear what happened next.

Wow, talking on here has gone downhill. Is everyone here now so eager to argue with people even when they agree with them? One. I know of Laenor and Laena as well, although since I am literally commenting in my spare time while riding the subway, I think pointing out every insubstantial character to be a bit .... pointless. I could remember Addam Velaryon 's name off the top of my head, so I said his name. 2. Marrying into a family does not make that family into a dragonlord family. That is literally nonsense. Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's dragons come from house Targaryen, not house Velaryon (as well as your other examples). 3. I am tempted to also say that as House Velaryon probably doesn't own any dragon eggs, so they even barely count. However, maybe they do have eggs. The fact was with the exception of Laena, Laenor, Addam, and the three other dragonseeds, no one but Targaryens controlled dragons. I doubt any dragon eggs were kept by anyone other than a Targaryen before the dragons stopped being born. I don't know the qualifications for being a "dragon lord", but I garuntee it isn't "if anyone in your family marries a dragonlord, your entire clan are now dragonlords, too. 

P.S. If you had been more pleasant in your response, I would have been as well. Try being civil if you want a civil discussion.

[Jaak]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 2. Marrying into a family does not make that family into a dragonlord family. That is literally nonsense. Rhaenys and Rhaenyra's dragons come from house Targaryen, not house Velaryon (as well as your other examples). 3. I am tempted to also say that as House Velaryon probably doesn't own any dragon eggs, so they even barely count. However, maybe they do have eggs. The fact was with the exception of Laena, Laenor, Addam, and the three other dragonseeds, no one but Targaryens controlled dragons. I doubt any dragon eggs were kept by anyone other than a Targaryen before the dragons stopped being born. I don't know the qualifications for being a "dragon lord", but I garuntee it isn't "if anyone in your family marries a dragonlord, your entire clan are now dragonlords, too.

Not every member of a dragonlord family is a dragonlord. Jaehaerys and Alysanne raised 9 children to adulthood. Of whom Vaegon was expressly Dragonless. And of the 6 daughters, not one is ever mentioned to have had a dragon.

And when you count the old dragons alive as of Dance of Dragons, there simply are not as many old dragons around as to have served the daughters of Jarhaerys.

 

Marrying a dragonlord does not make anyone a dragonlord. However, it can make one a dragonless member of a dragonlord family.

And a dragonlord moving to a different family on occasion of marriage may make that family a dragonlord family.

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 hours ago, Jaak said:

At Conquest, Velaryons were not a dragonlord family, but eventually they were. With qualifications, so were Royces and possibly Farmans.

You mean those strong sons of Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen? Their dragon lord genes most certainly came from their mum's side. 

[The Commentator]

On 11/6/2017 at 4:32 PM, Freys Injustice said:

Celigars, Velaryons, Daynes, Coherys, Sunglass, the valerian settlers in old town

Only the most noble among the nobles had dragons.  Only those forty families who ruled the empire had dragons.  They were the only ones allowed the privilege to own dragons.

[purple-eyes]

Great post. Actually this raised another question. What made these 40 dragonlord houses to be able to own dragons exclusively? 

Did they just monopolize dragon and dragon eggs by army and power? or they had some sort of magical blood tie with dragons so that dragon will only live and bond with them? I tended to believe ancesters of these houses practised blood magic and bond with dragons (magic got lost at some point or well kept within the family so no more dragonlord houses), then dragons will only regonize whoever had some portion of this blood.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/6/2017 at 1:32 PM, Freys Injustice said:

Celigars, Velaryons, 

These families were not dragon lords. . Of the groups you mentioned, these two are the only valyrian families 

[Jaak]

52 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

You mean those strong sons of Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen? Their dragon lord genes most certainly came from their mum's side. 

Yes, but they worked. All three hatched dragons and rode them. None was killed by his own dragon.

And so did those hightower children of Viserys I. No dragonrider ancestry on mother´s side, yet all four rode dragons.

But my point is: Targaryens might have insisted that only a Targaryen could ride a dragon. They might have insisted that every dragonlord should be called a Targaryen.

They did not. Rhaenys, a dragonlord, was allowed to marry Corlys Velaryon and keep Meleys... and significantly, Laenor and Laena were allowed to get dragons and yet be called Velaryons. Nor was Corlys required to drop his maiden surname and adopt name Corlys Targaryen as a condition of being allowed to marry a dragonlord.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

Great post. Actually this raised another question. What made these 40 dragonlord houses to be able to own dragons exclusively? 

Did they just monopolize dragon and dragon eggs by army and power? or they had some sort of magical blood tie with dragons so that dragon will only live and bond with them? I tended to believe ancesters of these houses practised blood magic and bond with dragons (magic got lost at some point or well kept within the family so no more dragonlord houses), then dragons will only regonize whoever had some portion of this blood.  

Me too. The dragonlords were the lords freeholder of Valyria. This is from the forward to The Sworn Sword originally published in Legends II back in 2003...

Quote

The lords freeholder of Valyria ruled the greater part of the known world; they were sorcerers, great in lore, and alone of all the races of man they had learned to breed dragons and bend them to their will.

Presumably that was written by "Gyldayn." 

[Lost Melnibonean]

54 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Yes, but they worked. All three hatched dragons and rode them. None was killed by his own dragon.

And so did those hightower children of Viserys I. No dragonrider ancestry on mother´s side, yet all four rode dragons.

But my point is: Targaryens might have insisted that only a Targaryen could ride a dragon. They might have insisted that every dragonlord should be called a Targaryen.

They did not. Rhaenys, a dragonlord, was allowed to marry Corlys Velaryon and keep Meleys... and significantly, Laenor and Laena were allowed to get dragons and yet be called Velaryons. Nor was Corlys required to drop his maiden surname and adopt name Corlys Targaryen as a condition of being allowed to marry a dragonlord.

If the dragons hadn't died out, and if Laenor's sons had not died fighting for their mother's rights, perhaps they might have had dragon riding sons of their own, effectively turning House Velaryon into a new "dragonlord" house. But the dragonlords were the 40 lords freeholder of Valyria. The only dragonlords that survived the Doom were House Targaryen. 

[Endymion I Targaryen]

House Velaryon,Celtigar,Qoherys are not mentioned to have dragons in the Conquest. Probably they were never dragonlords but it could also turn that the dragonless line of these houses left Valyria, while the main dragonlord line perished in the Doom.Same could happen with Volantene/Lyseni,etc.

[Lost Melnibonean]

You could ask the same question of the Valyrian descendants in Volantis, Lys, and the other Free Cities. 

[maudisdottir]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

But my point is: Targaryens might have insisted that only a Targaryen could ride a dragon. They might have insisted that every dragonlord should be called a Targaryen.

They did not. Rhaenys, a dragonlord, was allowed to marry Corlys Velaryon and keep Meleys... and significantly, Laenor and Laena were allowed to get dragons and yet be called Velaryons. Nor was Corlys required to drop his maiden surname and adopt name Corlys Targaryen as a condition of being allowed to marry a dragonlord.

I tend to think the dragons decide who gets to ride them. If you don't have the blood of House Targaryen, the dragon isn't going to bond with you. The dragons don't care what your last name is, so long as they can smell that Targ-ness.

Pre-Doom it's unlikely to have been an issue, as the Targaryens married each other. Rhaenys was "allowed" to marry Corlys because there had  already been intermarriage between Targaryens and Velaryons, and being Valyrian, they were closest in blood. But a marriage doesn't suddenly make the rest of the house dragonlords. Just because Kate Middleton married into the British royal family, it doesn't suddenly turn her own parents and siblings into royalty. Same deal here. There were no Velaryon dragons - they only had them through marriage with the Targaryens. Rhaenys was a Targaryen, so of course her children would be given dragon eggs, no matter what their last name was. And Corlys wasn't a dragonrider, so why would he need to change his name?

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

11 hours ago, Jaak said:

Not every member of a dragonlord family is a dragonlord. Jaehaerys and Alysanne raised 9 children to adulthood. Of whom Vaegon was expressly Dragonless. And of the 6 daughters, not one is ever mentioned to have had a dragon.

And when you count the old dragons alive as of Dance of Dragons, there simply are not as many old dragons around as to have served the daughters of Jarhaerys.

 

Marrying a dragonlord does not make anyone a dragonlord. However, it can make one a dragonless member of a dragonlord family.

And a dragonlord moving to a different family on occasion of marriage may make that family a dragonlord family.

I think you are confusing riding a dragon and being a dragon lord. A dragon lord is a term from Valyria referring to those 40 families in power, and not just a common noun for someone riding a dragon. A dragon rider is a normal person riding a dragon. A dragon lord is special title, and House Targaryen are the only dragon lords after the doom. Marrying a dragon lord does NOT make a family a dragon lord family. If that was the case, GRRM would have said so. It makes no logical sense. Read the quote below by maydisdottir. As he/she said, Middleton is not suddenly a royal family. It doesn't work that way. Let's give another example. Catelyn Tully married Eddard Stark. However Catelyn Stark doesn't get a dirwolf. She doesn't suddenly have the ability to warg. As well, her name does change to Stark, but Edmure's does not. Lysa's does not. When you marry a family, your entire family does not take on their traits. No one expects Edmure Tully to say "Winter is Coming" because those are not his words. I don't understand your logic, at all. Actually,when it comes to your second point, I am unsure. I would guess however, that even if you are dragonless, you are still considered a dragon lord, as it is a title and not a common noun. 

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I tend to think the dragons decide who gets to ride them. If you don't have the blood of House Targaryen, the dragon isn't going to bond with you. The dragons don't care what your last name is, so long as they can smell that Targ-ness.

Pre-Doom it's unlikely to have been an issue, as the Targaryens married each other. Rhaenys was "allowed" to marry Corlys because there had  already been intermarriage between Targaryens and Velaryons, and being Valyrian, they were closest in blood. But a marriage doesn't suddenly make the rest of the house dragonlords. Just because Kate Middleton married into the British royal family, it doesn't suddenly turn her own parents and siblings into royalty. Same deal here. There were no Velaryon dragons - they only had them through marriage with the Targaryens. Rhaenys was a Targaryen, so of course her children would be given dragon eggs, no matter what their last name was. And Corlys wasn't a dragonrider, so why would he need to change his name?

Exactly. Thank you for explaining this so eloquently. 

[Jaak]

8 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If the dragons hadn't died out, and if Laenor's sons had not died fighting for their mother's rights, perhaps they might have had dragon riding sons of their own, effectively turning House Velaryon into a new "dragonlord" house.

House Velaryon already was a new dragonlord house.

Jacaerys and Joffrey were both recognized as heirs of Rhaenyra and of Viserys - and called Velaryon all the while. Accession of either would have been change of dynasty. Accession of Rhaenyra would have been a change of dynasty if she had not remarried Daemon Targaryen.

Quote

I tend to think the dragons decide who gets to ride them. If you don't have the blood of House Targaryen, the dragon isn't going to bond with you. The dragons don't care what your last name is, so long as they can smell that Targ-ness.

Hugh the Hammer and Ulf the White looked like dragonseeds. Nettles did not. Well, the three elder sons of Rhaenyra were certainly hers and certainly looked different, so Nettles´ looks don´t prove lack of Targaryen ancestry either. (Nor did Valyrian looks of Silver Denys guarantee survival.) But the first Valyrians, before taming dragons, were supposed to have been shepherds as well....

Quote

Rhaenys was a Targaryen, so of course her children would be given dragon eggs, no matter what their last name was.

Why of course?

We see how Viserys I reacted when Daemon offered a dragon egg to Mhysaria.

And there were the rightful heiresses of Targaryen dynasty. Aerea. Her five Hightower daughters. Then Rhaena herself who was just 25 when widowed by Maegor.

We never hear of Aerea, her daughters or Rhaena´s younger children having had dragons. Nor of any of the six daughters of Jaehaerys having had dragons.

Targaryens might have tried to ensure that even if Rhaenys like Rhaena kept her own dragon, her children would end up in dragonless obscurity like Rhaena´s children and grandchildren and Jaehaerys´ daughters. They failed, or did not try. Or else they may have tried to adopt and incorporate all riders of Targaryen dragons into Targaryen family, making sure that if Rhaenys is allowed to keep her dragon and give dragons/eggs to her children, she should also give them Targaryen surname and treat Corlys as a househusband marrying into Targaryen family. Again, they failed or did not try.

[maudisdottir]

On 09/11/2017 at 3:55 PM, Jaak said:

Why of course?

Okay well maybe I should have said "there's no reason they wouldn't get dragon eggs" except a lack of eggs at the time. I don't know why Jaeherys' daughters aren't mentioned with dragons, but presuming there were enough dragons/eggs at the time of the Velaryon children's births (and there obviously were) then why wouldn't Rhaenys' children get them? She was very high up in the pecking order in House Targaryen, and her husband was an important ally. Even if eggs were scarce, I could see her children receiving them over lesser members.

[Jaak]

17 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Okay well maybe I should have said "there's no reason they wouldn't get dragon eggs" except a lack of eggs at the time. I don't know why Jaeherys' daughters aren't mentioned with dragons, but presuming there were enough dragons/eggs at the time of the Velaryon children's births (and there obviously were) then why wouldn't Rhaenys' children get them? She was very high up in the pecking order in House Targaryen, and her husband was an important ally. Even if eggs were scarce, I could see her children receiving them over lesser members.

Because she was down on the pecking order? Disinherited contrary to Andal law and her mother´s wishes? And her children adding dragons to her Meleys, including the most powerful one in the world, meant building up a faction with both means and motive for a civil war.

Rhaenys should have been reconciled early enough. Prince Aemon should have seen it coming for years. Viserys was worried about succession by the time Rhaenyra was 7 and had no brother.

Aemon and Jocelyn saw Rhaenys to the age of 18, and also had no son. If Aemon had not surprisingly died in Jaehaerys´ time, would King Aemon Aemon have really disinherited his daughter in favour of his brother?

The most obvious course of action should have been to marry Rhaenys to Viserys, already in their teens. With the ease-loving Viserys 3 years younger than his wife, would he really have challenged her for Iron Throne?

[Black Dragons]

I don't think they were Dragon's Lords, I think the Velaryons were ship merchants or sailors.

[Black Dragons]

On ‎08‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 2:54 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

If the dragons hadn't died out, and if Laenor's sons had not died fighting for their mother's rights, perhaps they might have had dragon riding sons of their own, effectively turning House Velaryon into a new "dragonlord" house. But the dragonlords were the 40 lords freeholder of Valyria. The only dragonlords that survived the Doom were House Targaryen. 

ps I don't think you have to be a male to be dragon rider.

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 07/11/2017 at 1:33 AM, Freys Injustice said:

When were the 40 dragonlord familes formed during their lenthy empire? 

 

All the 'abnormal' dragon sightings and dragon eggs in the known world came from these 40 families?

 

No other Valyrians dared to have their own pair of dragon pups?

If the glass candles are anything to go by, perhaps your average non-dragonlord Valyrian would have been too paranoid to attempt to claim their own pup for fear of being watched by some dark figure. 

That said, the Freehold certainly lasted long enough for such actions to take place, and having ones own fire breathing flying friend would certainly seem to be a tantalising prospect to any member of a race who claim to basically be evolved humanoid dragons. 

Think of the dragons themselves and how hard it might be to prevent a pregnant dragon from flying off if it decides to go for a wander - any Valyrian dragon could have flew to some Essosi Dragon Stone of their own and left a clutch just waiting to be found.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

ps I don't think you have to be a male to be dragon rider.

I didn't mean to imply that you did.