UFT Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 if dany did show up, completely curbstomp the lannisters and took the throne, and then proceeded to stomp stannis whole army as well, would stannis be like "hm right of conquest i guess. you're my queen now"?/ he built his entire rebellion on the notion that robert had a right to the throne before, via right of conquest rather than viserys, or would he just say "piss off, my claim's better"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Hopefully we'll find out. Who knows, something might happen to Selyse at the Wall and Stannis could become single. He's one of the best commanders in Westeros, supports a fire religion and is at least 1/4 Targaryen. All could be seen as selling points in a marriage to Daenerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Stannis is pure iron. Black , hard ,and strong yes, but brittle ,the way iron gets, He'll break before he bends . She'll have to put his head on a pike . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Stannis is pure iron. Black , hard ,and strong yes, but brittle ,the way iron gets, He'll break before he bends . She'll have to put his head on a pike . Yet we've seen him make compromises before. I like Noye, but he last knew Stannis over a decade earlier. His info is outdated; still largely correct mind, at least in regards to Stannis, but outdated nonetheless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormking902 Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said: Yet we've seen him make compromises before. I like Noye, but he last knew Stannis over a decade earlier. His info is outdated; still largely correct mind, at least in regards to Stannis, but outdated nonetheless. Agreed Stannis has grown as a character by leeps and bounds this no budge notion people use to describe Stannis is just false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Yozza Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 3 minutes ago, Stormking902 said: Agreed Stannis has grown as a character by leeps and bounds this no budge notion people use to describe Stannis is just false. I mean don't get me wrong, he's still stubborn as an ox but we have seen him change his mind on the word of his advisor's many times (Davos telling him to leave Mel behind, Davos telling him about the NW, Jon telling him not to attack the Dreadfort), he pardonned the Stormlords who followed Renly etc. I don't know what would happen if Dany arrived and beat the Lannister's while Stannis was up North fighting either the Bolton's/Others. But I don't think it is either fair or true to say he would definitely refuse to bend the knee just because he'll "bend before he breaks" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I'm still wondering how Stannis will fit into the prophecy or the forging of the sword specifically. The legends say that AA attempted to forge a sword three times; two of which were shattered or broken. Stannis still figures largely in Melisandre's plans to make him into AA. Stannis may fit the sword plunged into the heart of lion (lion as a symbol of royalty) and so he must break before he will bend (to the will of another). Donal Noye's defines true steel: Quote A Clash of Kings - Jon I The armorer considered that a moment. "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day." Stannis is black iron rather than true steel. In this sense, regardless of Melisandre's plans for him; he will not be the true sword. Although he may be made into a sword of some kind and presented as AA. Euron has the same plans to make himself into AA and so will perhaps fit the sword forged in water. Dany most likely fits the sword forged in the heart of fire. The question is whether one of them is truly AA or whether AA is the one who forges the sword and wields it. I think the prophecy will come about but I don't think Melisandre or Euron can make it happen the way they intend. Euron certainly won't be the red sword of heroes. At this point, Dany is someone's or something's instrument. Her transformation is more accidental or inadvertant and I think the prophecy will work its way through the story in the way that's least obvious or expected. We may only understand it after it has come to pass. I don't know if Dany will ever confront Stannis. It seems likely she will confront Euron/Cersei and Aegon at some point. Will Stannis return to the Wall, will he confront Euron? Dany does dream of a battle at the Trident: Quote A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough. That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened. Dany dreams of a redo at the Trident where Rhaegar died. That was the nightmare and now another part of her has awakened and the battle with ice is how it was meant to be. Who or what is this other part of her? I suspect it is the dragon who sings that has transformed her and become a part of her: Quote A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night … Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce. The dragon is her blood relation, the one who sings. She is forged anew in fire by the one who loves her. She is transformed and joined to the dragon that sings which becomes the other part of her; the exultant one, the one who is only just awakened. The one to which Dany has given birth. The one who is reborn. Dany dreams she is Rhaegar and the usurpers are the Baratheons. Melisandre imagines herself waking the great dragon and hatching dragons from stone with Stannis at her side; the Red Sword of fire. Quote A Storm of Swords - Davos IV "Speak sense to me, woman." "When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." "I have told you, no." A Storm of Swords - Davos V "There are no gods save R'hllor and the Other, whose name must not be spoken." Melisandre's mouth made a hard red line. "And small men curse what they cannot understand." "I am a small man," Davos admitted, "so tell me why you need this boy Edric Storm to wake your great stone dragon, my lady." He was determined to say the boy's name as often as he could. "Only death can pay for life, my lord. A great gift requires a great sacrifice." It is Dany who gives the great gift of her unborn son; she wakes the dragon and hatches dragons from stone and she dreams of confronting ice rather than fire. Dany rides the red sword of fire - the black dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I'm never convinced that Stannis would be so very dead set on fighting Dany for the throne, should that scenario arise. Consider Quote A Storm of Swords - Davos IV "You have always presumed on my forbearance," Stannis warned Davos when they were alone. "I can shorten your tongue as easy as I did your fingers, smuggler." "I am your man, Your Grace. So it is your tongue, to do with as you please." "It is," he said, calmer. "And I would have it speak the truth. Though the truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys? If you only knew . . . that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king." He grimaced. "Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately." "Why would you want it, then?" Davos asked him. "It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son." He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. If we take him at his word (and there are many who think he has far more ambition than his talk of duty and law would suggest) then the reasons he is set on the throne are that it is the law, it is his right as Robert's heir and his it is his duty to his House (to both Robert and Shireen). He claims he doesn't want it and his duty to his House is easily met by securing Storm's End and passing that on to his daughter so is it really that hard to imagine he would conclude that as Aerys's daughter Dany had a superior claim to him? It also allows him to expiate his guilt over abandoning his liege for his blood by now supporting that King's daughter. It seems entirely possible to me though I know Stannis has a following on this forum or who will not countenance any compromise or "yielding" on his part. He's actually a more complex character than he is often presented as - sometimes he is reduced almost to a meme for intransigence or determination (pick your flavour as you will) - and it actually introduces some uncertainty and a dilemma into his arc. Remember that GRRM talks about Faulkner's idea that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. How is that clear in Stannis's arc if he is simply dead set on being king and certain of his every action from first to last? That little scene with Davos shows how his decision to abandon Aerys still weighs heavily on him so having him torn over fighting or supporting Dany looks like exactly the sort of thing GRRM would drop on him. Would his ambition win out I wonder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 "The Iron Throne is mine by rights. All who deny that are my foes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 If you presented Stannis with that dilemma at the start of the series he would be utterly uninterested in her claim because by that point he (and everyone else in Westeros) had accepted Robert's reign as legitimate and no one cared about Viserys and Dany. If he disappeared for a few years and returned to a Westeros that had united behind a Targaryen again, I imagine he would accept their legitimacy (unless he felt some familial duty to fight) given how difficult it was for him to side with Robert during the rebellion. In the actual story, I imagine he has been kept one step ahead of any news about Dany precisely so he doesn't have to consider the dilemma. The only people he's fought are either rebel kings with no interest in the Iron Throne (Robb, Balon, Mance), Baratheons with factually illegitimate claims (Renly) or false Baratheons (Joffrey, Tommen), and in all of those cases he can basically fall back on "I am Robert's heir, not you" or "I won't accept a broken kingdom". By the time he does encounter Dany (if he does) I imagine things will be too far gone for him to surrender. He would have spent several years operating as king by then and she will want him dead for being a "usurper's dog", and from the end of ASOS onward he's convinced that it's his duty to save Westeros from the Others by proving himself a worthy king and uniting the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 7 hours ago, Adam Yozza said: Yet we've seen him make compromises before. I like Noye, but he last knew Stannis over a decade earlier. His info is outdated; still largely correct mind, at least in regards to Stannis, but outdated nonetheless. Stannis will fight to the end, but Stannis said it ," A king has either subjects or enemies ." , And if couldn't find common cause with Robb , his sexism will not allow him to back Dany . He only compromise he made was , he didn't forcefully convert the Mountain clans that is only because he needed them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Portnoy Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 16 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Stannis is pure iron. Black , hard ,and strong yes, but brittle ,the way iron gets, He'll break before he bends . She'll have to put his head on a pike . I sort of like Stannis and I love Daenerys. I would like to believe that Stannis would bend his knees and swear his loyalty to Queen Daenerys Targaryen. I hope Daenerys conquers Essos first and crosses the Narrow sea as already THE Empress. It is more likely that Stannis will have to be defeated completely before bending his knees to another claimant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 23 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said: Stannis will fight to the end, but Stannis said it ," A king has either subjects or enemies ." , And if couldn't find common cause with Robb , his sexism will not allow him to back Dany . He only compromise he made was , he didn't forcefully convert the Mountain clans that is only because he needed them . Given how he commands Justin to Spoiler enthrone his daughter upon his death in Winds, I would say he believes in a woman's right to a crown, but that her husband should be expected to rule as king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 On 11/6/2017 at 9:23 PM, UFT said: if dany did show up, completely curbstomp the lannisters and took the throne, and then proceeded to stomp stannis whole army as well, would stannis be like "hm right of conquest i guess. you're my queen now"?/ he built his entire rebellion on the notion that robert had a right to the throne before, via right of conquest rather than viserys, or would he just say "piss off, my claim's better"? Stannis is going to die in the north. there will not be any interaction between the two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Stannis is going to die in the north. there will not be any interaction between the two If feel like he will go North after Battle of Ice. There he can will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 11 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said: If feel like he will go North after Battle of Ice. There he can will die. my guess is he will die after the battle too. possibly before taking winterfell leaving the retaking of the ancestral seat of house stark to be retaken by jon after his healing/resurrection by mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tygett Lannister Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 1 minute ago, Dorian Martell's son said: my guess is he will die after the battle too. possibly before taking winterfell leaving the retaking of the ancestral seat of house stark to be retaken by jon after his healing/resurrection by mel cringe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted November 8, 2017 Share Posted November 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said: Stannis is going to die in the north. there will not be any interaction between the two Do you think that Bolton will beat him, that he will return to the Wall and die fighting the Others, or that something else will do him in? ETA Oh, never mind... I just read your next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UFT Posted November 12, 2017 Author Share Posted November 12, 2017 your responses are missing the point. stannis has already lost his whole army to her. my question is would he recognise right of conquest, or still refuse and insist on the baratheon claim? i always thought he was hypocritical because robert IMO is not the king. "right of conquest" is too easy, too barbaric and basically says any asshole can be king as long as they have a big army. imagine if i came into your house, took your shit and killed your family and said "mine now"? would you bend the knee and say "fuck, well i guess you're right when you put it like that". IMO as soon as robert dies, he should have been like "well im released from that whole elder brother vs king thing. time to go find daenerys or viserys and support them". thats what barristan did and thats why i like and support barristan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted November 12, 2017 Share Posted November 12, 2017 1 hour ago, UFT said: IMO as soon as robert dies, he should have been like "well im released from that whole elder brother vs king thing. time to go find daenerys or viserys and support them". thats what barristan did and thats why i like and support barristan. Not really. After Bobby B crushed Rhaegar on the Trident, Barristan willingly turned his cloak and served King Robert on his own free will. Then after Bob died Barristan willingly served Joffrey. He only left to find Dany after Joffrey and Cersei made the stupid decision of kicking him out of the Kingsguard. In all likely hood he'd be serving King Tommen right now if Joff never fired him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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