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U.S. Politics 2017: Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus


Manhole Eunuchsbane

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19 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That's fine, but it's not remotely 'people are asking him to step aside'. No one from the Republican party save John McCain has asked him to step aside. 

That 538 article that you linked to provides a tweet with quotes from a bunch of Republicans that state that Moore needs to step aside if the allegations are true.  Many of these Republicans were also quoted saying the same thing in the CNN article that I read.

ETA: the people quoted include: McConnell, Murkowski, Flake, Perdue, Gardner, Toomey, Lee, Portman, and McCain.

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6 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

That 538 article that you linked to provides a tweet with quotes from a bunch of Republicans that state that Moore needs to step aside if the allegations are true.  Many of these Republicans were also quoted saying the same thing in the CNN article that I read.

ETA: the people quoted include: McConnell, Murkowski, Flake, Perdue, Gardner, Toomey, Lee, Portman, and McCain.

Yes, he needs to step aside IF TRUE. What you said was that the Republicans all wanted him to step aside until this is sorted out.

Which isn't remotely accurate.

11 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

So I went to the original story and it actually provided a citation to the 1975 code.  Looks like one provisional dealt specifically with sexual abuse of a child less than 12 years old, while another provision deals with the age of consent, which was 16. 

So Moore wouldn't be charged with sexual abuse of a 12 year old, but could be charged with sexual abuse of a minor, if this was reported when it happened.  The portions of the story Kalbear linked to about the age of consent appears to be incorrect.

Again, really really missing the point I was trying to make.

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2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, he needs to step aside IF TRUE. What you said was that the Republicans all wanted him to step aside until this is sorted out.

Which isn't remotely accurate.

Again, really really missing the point I was trying to make.

Yeah, I went back and looked at my previous posting regarding the bolded and you're correct, that's wrong.  What I should have said is that many Republicans are asking him to step aside if the allegations are true, which I don't have a problem with.  If the allegations are false, should he have to step aside?  Morally, if the charges are false, then I don't think he needs to step aside.  It would probably be better for the party's chances at winning if he did step aside, but that would be up to him, if the charges are false.  If the charges are true, of course he should step aside.

As for the second half of you post, I'm a lawyer so I'm interested in what the law actually says, so that's why I posted what I did.  Note that I was responding to Manhole and not you. 

As for your actual point that Republicans are reprehensible for arguing that it's OK to sexually abuse minors because the law said it was legal then, I already addressed your point in another post.  Again, while I think that post was garbage, I don't think most Republican's are making that argument.  It was an online post from some website that I've never heard of, so I'm not going to assume that all Republicans agree with that premise.

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I think the problem is that since it's past the statute of limitations, it's going to be impossible to prove to any legal standard whether the allegations are true.  I finally got a chance to read the original Washington Post article that broke the story, and it's pretty damning.  Tons of verifiable details.  What was also strange is that some of the parents were aware of and appeared to approve Moore dating their teenage daughters (the parents of the 14 year old were unaware).  Some of the behavior, like dating 16 to 18 year olds while in his 30's, seems icky but does not appear to be illegal.   Right now, the incidents with the 14 year old are really the only thing that could sink him.  I think he can probably get past the other incidents, even if he admits those are true.

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Just now, Fragile Bird said:

I don't know about you, but all my life there have been guys who "liked them young".

Most people just shook their heads and said, What a creep.

Sounds like a lot of Republicans to me.

It's on both sides; sexual abuse is apolitical, as Weinstein and Spacey and Louis CK all demonstrate.

What is a bit more interesting is how many Republicans profess to be very holy and devout and against the evils that they perpetuate. 

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7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's on both sides; sexual abuse is apolitical, as Weinstein and Spacey and Louis CK all demonstrate.

What is a bit more interesting is how many Republicans profess to be very holy and devout and against the evils that they perpetuate. 

Oh, I agree it's apolitical. It's been incredible to watch the stories roll out once the Me Too stories started coming out.

But there's still something so Republican about it, and I do think it's about the religious hypocrisy.

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1 minute ago, Fragile Bird said:

Oh, I agree it's apolitical. It's been incredible to watch the stories roll out once the Me Too stories started coming out.

But there's still something so Republican about it, and I do think it's about the religious hypocrisy.

The two things that are strikingly "Republican" for me are the hypocrisy of it (which has been a pretty consistent thing for a while) combined with the almost absurd lengths Republicans will go to defend their own.

Hastert - who sexually abused three male students years earlier and then hid the hush-up money - had multiple Republicans talk about his great character and values even after he was convicted. 

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Gary Cohn wants you to know that CEOs of big corporations are jizzing in their pants over the tax plan.


Trump’s Top Economic Adviser Goes Full-Plutocrat in Embarrassing CNBC Interview

https://slate.com/business/2017/11/gary-cohn-goes-full-plutocrat-in-cnbc-interview.html

The Mary-Joseph Defense and Other Strange Arguments From Roy Moore Loyalists

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/hail-mary-and-other-odd-arguments-from-roy-moore-defenders.html

Tuesday’s Crushing Defeat Convinces Republicans They’re on the Right Track

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/11/tuesdays-crushing-defeat-convinces-gop-theyre-doing-well.html

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1 hour ago, KingintheNorth4 said:

I have a sinking feeling that he won't step down. Even if the allegations are proven true, his GOP buddies and his evangelical base will give him a pass by using the bible, as always. It makes me glad that I walked away from Organized Religion. 

Yeah didn't you hear it's fine because the virgin mary was a teenager when she married an older man and had Jesus.

15 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

On the Democrats side, Bill Clinton seems to get a pass.  Clinton settled with Paula Jones, who accused him of sexual harassment.  

There are certainly awful people all around. If someone told me Kennedy didn't always check IDs I wouldn't exactly be shocked. For what little it's worth I never read anything about Clinton going after underage girls. Also I'd say it's more important to focus on alleged perpetrators who still wield power today. (and in this case could soon wield even more.) 

Edit: Weiner, on the other hand is a democrat creep who did not get a pass. 

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21 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Yeah didn't you hear it's fine because the virgin mary was a teenager when she married an older man and had Jesus.

There are certainly awful people all around. If someone told me Kennedy didn't always check IDs I wouldn't exactly be shocked. For what little it's worth I never read anything about Clinton going after underage girls. Also I'd say it's more important to focus on alleged perpetrators who still wield power today. (and in this case could soon wield even more.) 

Edit: Weiner, on the other hand is a democrat creep who did not get a pass. 

Clinton definitely has received too much of a pass from Democrats for his sexual harassment over the years. But on the other hand, Eliot Spitzer had his entire career go down the tube after consensual sex with a prostitute. 

Meanwhile, the party of "family values" is defending an alleged child abuser simply because he's not a Democrat.

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13 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Moore is using the accusations against him as a fund raiser. Just a Clinton-Obama-WAPO-Bezos plot against him.

Kamala Harris is using the accusations against Moore as a fund raiser for Doug Jones says 'he's just like Trump."

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So they are admitting that 12 year old Mary really wasnt a virgin, but it was okay because she had consensual sex with Joseph? And if it was okay for Jesus' mom then its okay for Alabama  teens. How many bible thumps to the head does it take to generate an insane character defense like that? Whomever came up with that soundbyte should be placed in concussion protocal, their cognitive ability is malfunctioning big time.

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Now Trump has released a statement through the WH defending his fellow sex criminal, saying no one should have their lives destroyed by "mere allegations" but he should step down "if true".

And by whom is the veracity or falsehood of these allegations meant to be proven? Well by Roy Moore, obviously. If he is guilty, surely this homophobic, racist, child molesting, radical Christian extremist will uphold his honor and bow out.

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Guess we'll find out if enough Republican voters are willing to pull an Akin 2.0, and dump Moore. Yes Alabama in 2017 is more conservative than Missouri in 2012, but Akin "only" talked about rape, Moore actually committed either it or something close to it. Also, Akin lost by 16 points (in state Romney had won by 10), Moore just needs to lose by 1 (in a state Trump won by 28); and Moore was already much more unpopular in Alabama than the average Republican.

Not saying it'll definitely happen, but I think the potential is there. And just like Akin's in-state political allies stayed with him and attacked the media reports, and most pundits assumed the news wouldn't have a big impact, we may not know if the ground has actually shifted against Moore until election night.

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4 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

So they are admitting that 12 year old Mary really wasnt a virgin, but it was okay because she had consensual sex with Joseph? And if it was okay for Jesus' mom then its okay for Alabama  teens. How many bible thumps to the head does it take to generate an insane character defense like that? Whomever came up with that soundbyte should be placed in concussion protocal, their cognitive ability is malfunctioning big time.

This is why religion can be dangerous. People are too willing to use it to justify indefensible behavior.

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14 hours ago, Ormond said:

I'd have to see polling data on that to believe it. It has not been my personal experience that this is "near universal among Republicans."

I tried to find something for you last night, but the recent elections flooded every search I tried. I’ll look again in a few weeks once everything with Moore and the Alabama election has run its course. But I can say from personal experience as someone who has worked on several campaigns and for multiple elected officials that it’s incredibly common to hear Republican constituents make such claims. And while it’s true that Democrats make them too, I’ve noticed that the volume is significantly less with the latter with the exception of the 2000 election.

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