Skyrazer

Sansa/Ramsay marriage did not make sense

32 posts in this topic

Yeah ok I know this is all back in S5 and this particular plot has all but been tied up, but I'm currently watching through the entire show from beginning to end and am currently going through S5 (been holding off but have gotten sick of the wait for the novels) and one thing I'm just not understanding here is the Sansa/Ramsay marriage.

Now, if I'm not mistaken, hasn't the crown basically declared Sansa as a conspirator with her "husband" Tyrion for the murder of Joffrey who was basically found guilty after his failed trial by combat? Being wanted by the crown for the murder of a member of the royal family would make Sansa broken goods and render her claim on WF/the north null in the eyes of the crown would it not? Taking this into account, why would the Boltons then agree to marry a girl who now holds no value due to being one of the most wanted figures in the realm for committing one of the biggest crimes one could commit? Once the crown got wind of the marriage, wouldn't it demand the Boltons hand over Sansa or be labelled an enemy of the crown? And didn't the Boltons swear allegiance back to the crown after the Red Wedding in which case it would be their duty to hand over Sansa? Not to mention Littlefinger who brokers marriage - it would put him in deep, deep shit with the crown and Littlefinger is smarter than that than to basically make himself an enemy of the crown.

I'm really scratching my head over the whole marriage here, can someone explain it to me better or is this just a glaring oversight by the show when they changed it from the books?

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Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

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56 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

That is a good explanation 

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8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I still don't completely buy the Bolton's play however - yes they needed to shore up support with the rest of the northern houses, but at the cost of making yourself an enemy of the crown? Sounds like one step forward, three steps back. Wouldn't it be more logical using Sansa as a bargaining chip to somehow curry favor with the north and the crown as a hostage rather than marry her which is basically spitting in the face of the crown?

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3 minutes ago, Skyrazer said:

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I still don't completely buy the Bolton's play however - yes they needed to shore up support with the rest of the northern houses, but at the cost of making yourself an enemy of the crown? Sounds like one step forward, three steps back. Wouldn't it be more logical using Sansa as a bargaining chip to somehow curry favor with the north and the crown as a hostage rather than marry her which is basically spitting in the face of the crown?

The crown is a joke at this point. Tywin is dead. The thought that it would actually raise an army to go up North is unlikely. The only reason the North is even part of the seven kingdoms is dragons. Not sure what Roose has to worry about from the crown. All he cares about is consolidating the North. A bolton heir with Stark blood probably would solidify control for the next gen.

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"I had a pact with Tywin Lannister, and Tywin Lannister is dead. The remaining Lannisters are a thousand miles away, dealing with that fact. They've never once, in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, sent their army this far North. If you think they will for us, you're a fool. We've become a Great House, by entering into alliance with other Houses and parlaying those alliances into greater power. The best way to forge a lasting alliance, isn't by peeling a man's skin off. The best way is marriage. Now that you're a Bolton by Royal decree, it's high time you married a suitable bride. And as it happens, I've found the perfect girl to solidify our hold on the North." - Roose Bolton, S5E3.

Roose wasn't afraid of Tommen (or Cersei) so he didn't care what the Lannisters would think.
If Tywin was still alive in S5, then it would've been a different story altogether. 

 

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14 hours ago, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

I certainly don't agree with this. Placing Sansa in Winterfell didn't "position" her to take over the north - she could only start making moves after she escaped, which LF couldn't have been anticipating. Even then, her marriage to Ramsay was a hindrance, as Lady Mormont pointed out. There was no reason at all for Sansa to go to winterfell, and even less for her to go before the battle between Roose and Stannis was resolved.

His plan with Cersei also doesn't make sense. Even if he did successful invade the north and beat the Boltons, Cersei only promised to name him warden of the north if he brought her Sansa, which he obviously can't do. Even if we accept this plan as a way of getting her intial permission to invade, he didn't need to send Sansa North at all, he could have jut reported that his spies had seen her - lie his ass off as usual - and still get Cersei's thumbs up.

Finally, and this is where the plot completely breaks, lets assume that LF does invade the north and beseige winterfell. That leaves Sansa in Boltons hands when they are at their most desperate - wouldn't they just slit her throat to spite LF? Then he has nothing.

There is no concrete reason at all why Sansa had to go to Winterfell, and both her and LF's positions would have been better if she never left his side. 

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1 hour ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I certainly don't agree with this. Placing Sansa in Winterfell didn't "position" her to take over the north - she could only start making moves after she escaped, which LF couldn't have been anticipating. Even then, her marriage to Ramsay was a hindrance, as Lady Mormont pointed out. There was no reason at all for Sansa to go to winterfell, and even less for her to go before the battle between Roose and Stannis was resolved.

His plan with Cersei also doesn't make sense. Even if he did successful invade the north and beat the Boltons, Cersei only promised to name him warden of the north if he brought her Sansa, which he obviously can't do. Even if we accept this plan as a way of getting her intial permission to invade, he didn't need to send Sansa North at all, he could have jut reported that his spies had seen her - lie his ass off as usual - and still get Cersei's thumbs up.

Finally, and this is where the plot completely breaks, lets assume that LF does invade the north and beseige winterfell. That leaves Sansa in Boltons hands when they are at their most desperate - wouldn't they just slit her throat to spite LF? Then he has nothing.

There is no concrete reason at all why Sansa had to go to Winterfell, and both her and LF's positions would have been better if she never left his side. 

Maybe he overestimated Sansa's ability to play the game. And she overestimated herself too. She never tried to get allies within the household, she didn't try to kill Ramsay, she didn't insist on being treated like a lady or try to flee sooner...

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There is a really great analysis/article of the Sansa-Ramsay plot and why it doesn't make any sense on r/asoiaf.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/6wrad3/spoilers_extended_sansas_bolton_plotline_two/

It is basically an analysis of the inner logic, the consequences and D&D "reasons" for this plot.

I can't say much about this topic that wasn't already coffered in this article. It's a bit long, but sure worth the read.

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10 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

"I had a pact with Tywin Lannister, and Tywin Lannister is dead. The remaining Lannisters are a thousand miles away, dealing with that fact. They've never once, in the history of the Seven Kingdoms, sent their army this far North. If you think they will for us, you're a fool. We've become a Great House, by entering into alliance with other Houses and parlaying those alliances into greater power. The best way to forge a lasting alliance, isn't by peeling a man's skin off. The best way is marriage. Now that you're a Bolton by Royal decree, it's high time you married a suitable bride. And as it happens, I've found the perfect girl to solidify our hold on the North." - Roose Bolton, S5E3.

Roose wasn't afraid of Tommen (or Cersei) so he didn't care what the Lannisters would think.
If Tywin was still alive in S5, then it would've been a different story altogether. 

 

Exactly.  Roose didn't fear the crown once Tywin died.  He was Warden of the North, and by having an heir who was married to a Stark would help solidify his claim of the North.  The northern houses have always been more loyal to the Starks than the Crown...

7 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

I certainly don't agree with this. Placing Sansa in Winterfell didn't "position" her to take over the north - she could only start making moves after she escaped, which LF couldn't have been anticipating. Even then, her marriage to Ramsay was a hindrance, as Lady Mormont pointed out. There was no reason at all for Sansa to go to winterfell, and even less for her to go before the battle between Roose and Stannis was resolved.

His plan with Cersei also doesn't make sense. Even if he did successful invade the north and beat the Boltons, Cersei only promised to name him warden of the north if he brought her Sansa, which he obviously can't do. Even if we accept this plan as a way of getting her intial permission to invade, he didn't need to send Sansa North at all, he could have jut reported that his spies had seen her - lie his ass off as usual - and still get Cersei's thumbs up.

Finally, and this is where the plot completely breaks, lets assume that LF does invade the north and beseige winterfell. That leaves Sansa in Boltons hands when they are at their most desperate - wouldn't they just slit her throat to spite LF? Then he has nothing.

There is no concrete reason at all why Sansa had to go to Winterfell, and both her and LF's positions would have been better if she never left his side. 

I never said it was a good plan.  I merely pointed out how LF saw things and the actions he took to try to weasel his way up the ladder of power...

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7 hours ago, Zapho said:

Maybe he overestimated Sansa's ability to play the game. And she overestimated herself too. She never tried to get allies within the household, she didn't try to kill Ramsay, she didn't insist on being treated like a lady or try to flee sooner...

This is true, but I don't really know what LF was expecting her to do. Is it believable that Sansa would somehow take over or supplant Roose Bolton by charming his son? Is the man who came up with the Red Wedding really going to go down so easily form the manipulations of a fifteen year old? 

And to speak in defence of Sansa (who was, I agree, completely useless in season 5 because the plot demanded it) LF was always giving her confusing and conflicting information. He told her she was going to Winterfell to avenge her family, then he told her she was to wait for Stannis to win, then he told her to "make Ramsay her own", whatever that means. None of this really makes sense from Sansa's perspective.

Considering his actions in season 6, I assumed that most of what LF said to Sansa in season 5 was simply to keep her going along with things in winterfell whilst he made his play with Cersei and came back with a massive army to take over. But again, this plan doesn't need Sansa to be in Winterfell, it only needs Cersei to think she is in Winterfell. 

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Also people saying it was stupid of Roose for breaking his pact with the crown .

Well he was always going to do that because Tywin only temporarily made him warden of the north .

He was always going to have to rebel to take the north for himself .

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18 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

This is true, but I don't really know what LF was expecting her to do. Is it believable that Sansa would somehow take over or supplant Roose Bolton by charming his son? Is the man who came up with the Red Wedding really going to go down so easily form the manipulations of a fifteen year old? 

Hm, it's the only thing that makes even remotely some sense. Let's think it through. 

I suppose LF met with both Roose and Ramsay and he would have realized that Ramsay intended to become the next Lord Bolton sooner rather than later. Roose' marriage with Fat Walda was a danger to that plan because legitimised or not, Ramsay was a bastard and a trueborn son with a highborn mother would always have the better claim. If Ramsay had been as cunning as his father (which he was not), he could have made Sansa his ally in bringing Roose down. The rest of the North hated Roose (most of them at least) for the Red Wedding. Ramsay had no part in it and he is just his bastard. As Sansa's husband, he could believably conspire with other lords against his own father. He has some credit for being the one who got rid of the Ironborn in the North.

If something like that had been LF's mad gamble, he should at least have explained it to Sansa, provided her with some allies in form of a couple of handmaides who can handle a weapon and give her some poison just in case.

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On 11/8/2017 at 2:04 AM, Skyrazer said:

-- snip ---

Per the show runners, "Creatively it made sense for us because we wanted it to happen".

They wanted the scene, you know the one. It was their plan for 4-5 years and they used the "EXCUSE" of Sansa not having many more chapters after she escapes King's Landing as GRRM has taken a very, very long time to write the next book.

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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The thing I guess is that my perception of LF is fairly influenced by the books where it seemed quite evident that LF was madly infatuated with Cat and these feelings naturally carry over to Sansa who is pretty much a younger, more beautiful version of Cat. Watching the show, I do not get the impression that LF's attraction towards Cat is as strong compared to the books and seems to come across as more a boyhood crush rather than a serious romantic affliction. To me, much of LF's character is defined by his relationship towards Cat (which transferred to Sansa) and so it seemed odd to me that he would give up his object of desire and marry her off instead of keeping her close to try and have her fulfill those romantic voids left over from his failed relationship with Cat.

I dunno, I guess I find myself thinking of book:LF where there's no way he'd be giving up Sansa so willingly (if at all) and his decision to marry her off to me felt like it harmfully altered a core aspect of his character.

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On 11/10/2017 at 9:58 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Per the show runners, "Creatively it made sense for us because we wanted it to happen".

They wanted the scene, you know the one. 

Now that's just wrong (in the moral sense) for them to want that scene. 

 

14 hours ago, Skyrazer said:

The thing I guess is that my perception of LF is fairly influenced by the books where it seemed quite evident that LF was madly infatuated with Cat and these feelings naturally carry over to Sansa who is pretty much a younger, more beautiful version of Cat. Watching the show, I do not get the impression that LF's attraction towards Cat is as strong compared to the books and seems to come across as more a boyhood crush rather than a serious romantic affliction. To me, much of LF's character is defined by his relationship towards Cat (which transferred to Sansa) and so it seemed odd to me that he would give up his object of desire and marry her off instead of keeping her close to try and have her fulfill those romantic voids left over from his failed relationship with Cat.

I dunno, I guess I find myself thinking of book:LF where there's no way he'd be giving up Sansa so willingly (if at all) and his decision to marry her off to me felt like it harmfully altered a core aspect of his character.

It does seem out of character for Littlefinger, considering how much he wants to get in Sansa's skirts. His whole plot in Season 7 is trying to get Sansa for himself.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Actually, I have no problems with the most obvious plot points on this show.

LF sent Sansa North, because he wanted the North. As far as anyone's aware, Sansa is the heir . He wanted inside her skirts, too, but his drive for power has always been stronger than his drive for anything else.

Sansa went, because LF told her that she's been passive too long, and here was her chance to take revenge.

Initially, I had no problem with the decision, because this was, supposedly, the new Sansa, educated by LF, able to manipulate. Had that Sansa shown up at WF, she still would have been raped and abused (that is Ramsay's character) but she also would have been able to manipulate the Boltons to her advantage. They're not in an unassailable position: they're hated, isolated. Stannis is coming. The father and son are not in agreement. Ramsay is insane. The commoners at WF are unhappy. Brienne is around. I don't write scripts for a living, but imagine what Olenna as a young woman would have done in the same position.

Problem was the lack of follow through. Sansa went to WF and did nothing but suffer. Her passivity nullified any reason for sending her North except as a gross plot point.

Re LF asking for Cersei's permission: I agree that was unnecessary, esp as he doesn't even use that to take the Vale North. Maybe he was covering himself? If his Vale and North plots failed, he could return to KL.

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On 11/11/2017 at 9:34 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Now that's just wrong (in the moral sense) for them to want that scene.

Agreed but want it they did and they bent all logic and just about ruined her character to get it.

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On 11/11/2017 at 1:38 PM, kimim said:

Problem was the lack of follow through. Sansa went to WF and did nothing but suffer. Her passivity nullified any reason for sending her North except as a gross plot point.

I think the show wanted Sansa to finally stop trusting LF, which is why they had her passive and oppressed in WF. It was at that stage that she realized LF wasn't looking out for her, just advancing his own agenda. I'm not saying it was a good idea, just that thats what they were going for. They had her take a little more control defeating the Boltons.

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On a somewhat unrelated note: I like how Littlefinger already has control over the Riverlands, the Vale, and is asking for the North and no red flags are going off in Cersei's head.

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