Skyrazer

Sansa/Ramsay marriage did not make sense

32 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Ser Maverick said:

On a somewhat unrelated note: I like how Littlefinger already has control over the Riverlands, the Vale, and is asking for the North and no red flags are going off in Cersei's head.

He doesn’t have control over the Riverlands in the show. Walder Frey is Lord Paramount there,

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3 hours ago, jcmontea said:

He doesn’t have control over the Riverlands in the show. Walder Frey is Lord Paramount there,

Doesn’t he have Harrenhal, which pulls a lot of weight (for some reason)?

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59 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Doesn’t he have Harrenhal, which pulls a lot of weight (for some reason)?

He owns a castle. Unlike Walder Frey, he has no standing army loyal to him.

LF had no real power over the Riverlands, that power belong to the Lannisters and the Freys.

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One thing that bothered me was LF, despite supposedly being a brilliant mastermind, knowing nothing of Ramsay's nature, even though the latter made iirc no particular effort to hide it. Unless the show meant for him to be incompetent?

Also LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons makes little sense from either from a romantic(*) or a political perspective, unless he'd left an agent to watch over her. Even then, it seems he'd want to keep her in sight.

Once Sansa got into Winterfell (assuming some realistic way of getting her there), I'd have liked to see a little more agency. Perhaps it's unreasonable for me to expect her to take a role like Manderly or the spearwives in the books; but something between that and near-complete passivity would have been nice.

(*)I don't know that it's what most of us would consider genuinely romantic. A bizarre mixture of lust, unhealthy obsession, and political expediency.

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6 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

One thing that bothered me was LF, despite supposedly being a brilliant mastermind, knowing nothing of Ramsay's nature, even though the latter made iirc no particular effort to hide it. Unless the show meant for him to be incompetent?

Also LF handing Sansa over to the Boltons makes little sense from either from a romantic(*) or a political perspective, unless he'd left an agent to watch over her. Even then, it seems he'd want to keep her in sight.

Once Sansa got into Winterfell (assuming some realistic way of getting her there), I'd have liked to see a little more agency. Perhaps it's unreasonable for me to expect her to take a role like Manderly or the spearwives in the books; but something between that and near-complete passivity would have been nice.

(*)I don't know that it's what most of us would consider genuinely romantic. A bizarre mixture of lust, unhealthy obsession, and political expediency.

Agreed. 

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On 11/8/2017 at 0:34 PM, Jaehaerys Stark said:

Littlefinger played everyone with the Sansa/Ramsay wedding.  He convinced Sansa that marrying Ramsay would put her in a position to not only get revenge on the Bolton's for the Red Wedding, but also put her in a position to reclaim the North. He convinced Roose Bolton that the marriage would help to solidify the Bolton's hold on the North and would legitimize him as Warden of the North, as far as the people of the North are concerned.  He then convinced Cersei that the wedding was Roose's idea, and that he would ride North with the Knights of the Vale to go get Sansa, send her back to KL to face the crown, all in hopes that Cersei/Tommen would name him Warden of the North, for his efforts.  He then convinced Sweet Robyn and the Knights of the Vale that the Bolton's had kidnapped Sansa and that she needed rescuing, which is why Robyn had Ser Royce lead the army North to WF. 

Littlefinger played everybody and convinced them all that things were the way they were for reasons other than the truth.  All of those lies were nothing more than a power play, to put himself in a position to become Warden of the North and marry Sansa himself eventually...

The flaw there is that there never any plan for how exactly Sansa is going to 'get revenge'....LF seems to imply that she can just sex up Ramsay and get him to fall for her and then voila, she will be in control.  But, this is a pretty bad plan.  And Sansa's actions @ WF don't really support that, she is rude to everyone, never trying to seduce Ramsay at all.  

I would say this is a fatal flaw in the plan, especially with Stannis having been still alive at the time of the arrangement.

Also, in this plan, many parties have to act out of their established characters.  Roose Bolton would simply have killed LF once he got Sansa.  And the Vale lords, similarly, would have figured out that Sansa wasn't kidnapped by the Boltons and would never have stood pat for an entire season in WF.

So, I really don't think it hangs together as a reasonable plan, even if one assumes that LF believed Stannis would lose.  How was he going to get Sansa back?  It was, again, only by massive plot contrivance, that Ramsay left WF to engage Jon outside the walls and so was vulnerable....

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I also feel like the show has given too much of a role to Ramsay. In the books, he was a fairly minor character I thought whom we only see through Theon but is otherwise not seen at all through any other POV chars. IMO, his character does not demand nearly the amount of screentime and focus the show has given him. If I had to rewrite the whole thing I would have done it like this:

- Sansa remains in the Vale where she learns from LF. She eventually beats LF at his own game, has him killed/imprisoned/whatever and takes control of the Vale.

- As per the books, Ramsay marries a fake Arya (does not have to be Jeyne), which brings Brienne to WF and entices Sansa to plot a WF takeback now that her "sister" is in the hands of the Boltons.

- Sansa plans to unite the Vale with Jon Snow to take back WF after hearing Jon is the new LC and has the Wildling army behind him.

- Brienne attempts a covert kidnap of "Arya" but runs into Theon who tells her it's not the real Arya. Brienne persuades Theon to leave with her and together they leave WF.

- Brienne and Theon hook up with Sansa as she makes her way to the wall.

- I suppose from here Theon goes back to the Islands and Brienne joins Sansa's company.

- Sansa and Jon unite and take back WF together.

As for S7, instead of the sister-rivalry nonsense, you could say - have Arya continue to serve up Frey-pie and then have Sansa, with her now uber-politix skills, make moves on the Riverlands which now has a massive power vaccum with the Freys gone, bringing the Riverlands into alliance with the North and being useful instead of being a whiny b1tch towards Jon.

All this makes it a bit more in line with the novels and does the characters justice. This would make Sansa more likeable and more capable (as she should be).

Edited by Skyrazer

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I just had a bizarre thought. What if fake Arya is ... Brienne? There'd have to be some kind of reason, though. It's no good complaining the show doesn't make sense if one's fixes don't make sense either.

Or perhaps fake Arya really is Arya. That'd require her leaving Braavos earlier. 

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The whole rape scene with Sansa and Ramsey was just for shock value and unfortunately it ruined a lot of the following season with their female characters. D&D adjusted the female direction to "girl power" after the backlash and I believe led to a lot of the problems of that season and possibly the seventh as well.

Also, Iwan Rheon did a fantastic job with that role, so naturally, you would want to give him more screen time. But the whole him and Sansa scene and marriage was handled extremely poorly and honestly doesn't make much sense. 
 

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It was disturbing show business mindset to even think of such a storyline to get a scene like that and to plan it for years is just too creepy. Now, given all of the seedy stuff being exposed on show bizz inustry, it is not surprising.

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15 hours ago, Count Balerion said:

I just had a bizarre thought. What if fake Arya is ... Brienne?

Cause Brienne is about 7ft tall, kinda hard to mistake her for Ayra.

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Oh yes, thee's also that. And the actresses look nothing alike. Maybe Ramsay and the Northern lords are really stupid and don't notice, because the plot said so. Not that anyone will want to increase that extra-logical element in the show.

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