Beardy the Wildling

[S7] What would you have done differently?

40 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I think the shows solution is the right one. Moral/ political dilema prevents a full on Kl assault initially followed by the intervention of the dead shifts the focus away from cersei. I think the answer lies more in better execution of that basic structure than in chaging the landing to Dorne. Makes no sense to land somewhere where you can’t project power from easily. 

You could decide to kill her. The main drawback there though is that your are left with a straight good vs evil, living vs dead final battle in season 8 instead of the three way clusterfuck they seem to be heading towards in 8x05 for the final battle outside KL. 

So, what do you think are the odds of the final bosses? Will the Night King be the final, ultimate villain? Will it be Cersei? Or maybe... Euron?

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So, what do you think are the odds of the final bosses? Will the Night King be the final, ultimate villain? Will it be Cersei? Or maybe... Euron?

Pure speculation on my part. But I think that everything will converge into a massive battle which will be the climax for the entire show in episode 5 along the lines George envisioned in his original outline “ The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.”

- land battle with dothraki, vale knights, golden company, fiery hand, vs. AOTD 

- aerial dragon fighting 

- Bran and the NK dueling on the psychic plan

- iron fleet naval bombardment of the AOTD which Theon will gain control of at some point

- AOTD breaking into the city and starting to grow exponentially 

- Cersei in the city probably with some crazy unhinged plan to burn it all down since her plan turned into a failure since the GC betrayed her, Dany/ Jon and the NK are at the gates

At one point everything will seem lossed as the AOTD starts to get too big and then obviously they wil kill the NK

First half of next episode - the final episode -would be taking care of Cersei but will be less of a battle as everyone will probably have turned on her by that point and more of a lets stop her from doing something crazy. She ends up killing herself with Jaime and then you get the political resolution and series over. 

In terms of odds I would say:

NK in episode 5, Cersei in episode 6 would be ~65% 

Cersei before NK - 5% 

NK before episode 5 with a big human final battle in episode 5 - 30%

Edited by jcmontea

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19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

You mean the western side of Westeros, right? Because Daenerys is coming from the south-east.

Oops, I meant western, yeah.

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21 hours ago, jcmontea said:

I think the shows solution is the right one. Moral/ political dilema prevents a full on Kl assault initially followed by the intervention of the dead shifts the focus away from cersei. I think the answer lies more in better execution of that basic structure than in chaging the landing to Dorne. Makes no sense to land somewhere where you can’t project power from easily. 

I get you, but that still doesn't make Dragonstone the right location because of what many people have pointed out:

Where's Stannis's token force, and if that's not there, why hasn't Cersei retaken it, and why would Dany let Euron through to KL to treat with Cersei?

Maybe the Reach is the best solution landwise, then after that the only thing stopping Dany is moral qualms? Well, in that case she shouldn't be like 'Oh, St Tyrion is right, we shouldn't burn people' right before planning to siege King's Landing and STARVE KING'S LANDING TO DEATH INSTEAD, and in the end taking Drogon and performing the Field of Fire II Electric Boogaloo.

I do get what you're saying, moral qualms would be a good way to limit Daenerys, but it needs to be done consistently to work.

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27 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I get you, but that still doesn't make Dragonstone the right location because of what many people have pointed out:

Where's Stannis's token force, and if that's not there, why hasn't Cersei retaken it, and why would Dany let Euron through to KL to treat with Cersei?

Maybe the Reach is the best solution landwise, then after that the only thing stopping Dany is moral qualms? Well, in that case she shouldn't be like 'Oh, St Tyrion is right, we shouldn't burn people' right before planning to siege King's Landing and STARVE KING'S LANDING TO DEATH INSTEAD, and in the end taking Drogon and performing the Field of Fire II Electric Boogaloo.

I do get what you're saying, moral qualms would be a good way to limit Daenerys, but it needs to be done consistently to work.

Stannis token force is the least of the problems. Stannis is dead and he had burned his own daughter. A lot of his people were unhappy about the power Melisandre had over him. I can easily believe that his sacrificing Shireen for nothing and the utter defeat he suffered in the North were seen as some sort of divine sign that his cause was wrong. They'd probably not want to follow Cersei if they believe that her children were bastards. So bending the knee to Dany without putting up much of a fight would make sense. It's not shown, but I think it didn't need to be, cause they had not much of an alternative. Dany came with Dragons, Dothraki, Unsullied and their Lord was dead, his house defeated and gone. I bet they didn't even put up a fight.

I agree that the moral dilemma is not the best motive. While it's in character for Dany to care about innocent victims, she can't possibly be naive enough to believe that there won't be any when she comes to claim the Iron Throne with fire and blood. Neither does she on the show. Hers and Tyrion's concerns were about her bringing foreign forces along to do it. Especially the Dothraki. Which is exactly the argument Cersei uses against her.

I think the show could have made more of this angle. Dany is way too powerful at the start of season 7 and Cersei is too weak. The way it's been portrayed how that is almost reversed in 3 episodes casts doubts on her intelligence and/or Tyrion's true allegiance. And it makes Jamie and Cersei suddenly look more clever than they are. A better way to bring it about would be a more realistic shift in power. Cersei's alliance with Euron and Randyll Tarly make a limited amount of sense but they need a better motivation. It's stupid to ally yourself with a weakened Queen when the other one has dragons and plenty of fighters. Dany needs to face some real problems and there are a lot of realistic possibilities:

  • Cersei has access to several anti-dragon weapons, and not just the scorpions. Not because Qyburn invented them on the fly but because some old Maester has spent a lifetime studying the problem a hundred years ago. The methods are not some arcane secrets either but well known to military strategists.
  • Dany did land several thousand Dothraki somewhere in Westeros, maybe the Westerlands or even the Reach. A sizable proportion of them deserted (chose a new Khal and declared independence) and devastates the land. This would give credence to a lot of lords turning to Cersei. Randyll Tarly could still have been the figurehead on the show, but it would be clear he wasn't the only one and their motivation woud make more sense. Of course, Dany would lose the moral high ground then and that's probably why the show avoided something like that. 
  • Dany has massive logistical problems because there is not enough food for all her fighters. She needs to resort to feeding them by reaving which leads to the same consequence as in the last option.
  • There's a rebellion in Dorne against the Sandsnakes for the murder of their Prince and his heir and because not all Dornish feel that killing an innocent girl is an adequate revenge against the Lannisters. Prince Oberyn himself never did.
  • Give some hint that Euron fights dirty like in the books. Some magic that explains why the Silence is not seen until it's too late and never heard.
  • The Faith Militant was hated by some powerful groups and Cersei is their hero for blowing them up. Though I don't like that one it is maybe not impossible.

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5 hours ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

I get you, but that still doesn't make Dragonstone the right location because of what many people have pointed out:

Where's Stannis's token force, and if that's not there, why hasn't Cersei retaken it, and why would Dany let Euron through to KL to treat with Cersei?

Maybe the Reach is the best solution landwise, then after that the only thing stopping Dany is moral qualms? Well, in that case she shouldn't be like 'Oh, St Tyrion is right, we shouldn't burn people' right before planning to siege King's Landing and STARVE KING'S LANDING TO DEATH INSTEAD, and in the end taking Drogon and performing the Field of Fire II Electric Boogaloo.

I do get what you're saying, moral qualms would be a good way to limit Daenerys, but it needs to be done consistently to work.

Thats why i say execution is the big thing and less where she landed specifically. 

The only problem with the reach landing from an in universe perspective is the dragons. If you don’t want them feasting on random people dragonstone is prob best. But other than that it makes the most sense. The problem from a doyalist perspective is it makes it tough to write the story in a way that olenna gets taken out and cersei gets the gold.

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On 11.11.2017 at 7:52 PM, jcmontea said:

In terms of odds I would say:

NK in episode 5, Cersei in episode 6 would be ~65% 

Cersei before NK - 5% 

NK before episode 5 with a big human final battle in episode 5 - 30%

How about NK escaping to KL, and turning Cersei into a wight? Then it will be final battle in last episode - Jon and Dany against Night's King and his Snow Queen Cersei. Battle between Fire and Ice, i.e. life and death. All wars ending in one decisive battle.

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57 minutes ago, Megorova said:

How about NK escaping to KL, and turning Cersei into a wight? Then it will be final battle in last episode - Jon and Dany against Night's King and his Snow Queen Cersei. Battle between Fire and Ice, i.e. life and death. All wars ending in one decisive battle.

It would certainly be a sight if he made Cersei the Night's Queen. While I don't necessarily think that's the way they will go, I find it much more likely that the NK's plot will somehow be tied into whatever Cersei is doing, seeing as she really doesn't have much left to do, that it will all come together in one final climactic battle. A true convergence.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

How about NK escaping to KL, and turning Cersei into a wight? Then it will be final battle in last episode - Jon and Dany against Night's King and his Snow Queen Cersei. Battle between Fire and Ice, i.e. life and death. All wars ending in one decisive battle.

I agree on one decisive battle. I don’t think Cersei is turned though. But you never know

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Pretty much everything I was going to say has been covered, but something that really bothered me that doesn't get mentioned much was the anticlimactic Dany's war of conquest. It's basically something we've been waiting for since the beginning of the series and been overhyped the previous couple seasons and what we got seemed like less of a war and more random incoherent battles/strategies where teleportation is a factor and scouts aren't. I get that D&D can't write the military aspect of the show but it's something I think would improve it tenfold. In the earlier seasons with Robb, you really got the sense that this was a war, even though it didn't show much due to budget. From the moment Dany sets foot on abandoned Dragonstone, a castle right outside King's Landing's bay, everything was so damn stupid. The relative sizes of each army is intentionally left undefined. The Sand Snakes and Olenna get killed and then their armies are suddenly out of the picture. Jaime defeating Highgarden by teleportation there in an episode and "flower knight are bad fighters" was really dumb and lazy. The Lannister army get defeated in the field of fire, and they don't ever give any indication of how this affects the Lannisters' overall forces in any way, but we just know that they need them for the battle with the Others.

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From the same starting position as the TV show was at the end of season 6?
That's difficult because, as everybody knows the really bad problems started in Season 5.

If we only consider Season 7 then all anybody can do is "damage control"

1. Show Cersei struggling to desperately keep the realm under her control, nobody should trust her or cheer for her after what she did. There should be a civil war. A gigantic one with more factions and fronts than the TV show can feasibly depict in one short season. 
I still think however that some tension could have been kept by simply stating that most of Westeros has collapsed into anarchy with Cesei and Dany each holding some scattered pockets.
We should see things like nobles shouting at Cersei in the Throne Room, dissent, riots in King's Landing. Joffrey and Tommen had to deal with dissent, why doesn't Mad Queen Romulan, the Ugliest of Dress?

2. Jaime needs to be against Cersei from the moment he learns of the Sept and Tommen. No surprise pregnancy to manipulate him. Or otherwise have the pregnancy be fake an a failed attempt of Cersei's to manipulate him. In any case the final break between them should happen way sooner. 

3.Dany loses Dorne to factions of Dornish nobles who depose of Elaria and the Sand Snakes. Dorne is useless for the remainder of the War because the different factions can't decide whom to put on their throne. Maybe in Season 8 Dany can visit and unite the warring factions under her.

4.My inner Tyrell fanboy will say introduce Willas and/or Garlan as the new heir to Highgarden (and Margery's cousin) and possible rival for Jon in the Dany/Jon romance.

5. Speaking of said romance: it needs to be introduced earlier and developed more.

6.If any Wight Hunt has to happen, it happens in order to convince Daenerys to help stop the Others, not Queen Romulan. This happens earlier as to bring a justification why Daenerys just doesn't attack KL.

7.Even so I can see no justification for Cersei to survive longer than the middle of the season. So either a battle for King's Landing has to happen or Cersei has to blow up the city (with Jaime strangling her) as Dany stands at the gates.

8.Instead Euron gets promoted to main human bad guy, Amp up his powers and it works.

9.Witnerfell needs to be completely re-written all of it was BS. I have no either what should happen there, but it needs to be something entirely different, also everybody there needs the 90 IQ points back the writers have stolen from them two season ago. And yeah Arya needs to be waaaay less schizophrenic. Sansa is pretty much a lost cause since they have taken her proper storyline away from her, can only do some damage control here by playing up the "Lady of Witnerfell" aspect. Playing the two of them as a close-knit and powerful sister duo from the very start would both make sense and please the viewers. To get rid of Littlefinger (a mercy kill by now) have Sansa get an idea of Arya's capabilities and then ask her sister for help in dealing with their unwanted guest. 

10. If Dany has to lose the Reach, then, like Dorne have it be lost to local infighting. Have Randyll Tarly make an attempt to crown himself King of the Reach and have him rally any houses that might be disgruntled with the way the Tyrells have distrubed the region's peace by meddling with Renly and the Lannisters and march on Highgarden.

11. Have the season end with Daenerys sitting on a snow covered throne in the destroyed Red Keep and word arriving (possibly from Jon) that the Wall has fallen and that the Wights are marching South.

Edited by Orphalesion

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2 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

From the same starting position as the TV show was at the end of season 6?
That's difficult because, as everybody knows the really bad problems started in Season 5.

If we only consider Season 7 then all anybody can do is "damage control"

1. Show Cersei struggling to desperately keep the realm under her control, nobody should trust her or cheer for her after what she did. There should be a civil war. A gigantic one with more factions and fronts than the TV show can feasibly depict in one short season. 
I still think however that some tension could have been kept by simply stating that most of Westeros has collapsed into anarchy with Cesei and Dany each holding some scattered pockets.
We should see things like nobles shouting at Cersei in the Throne Room, dissent, riots in King's Landing. Joffrey and Tommen had to deal with dissent, why doesn't Mad Queen Romulan, the Ugliest of Dress?

 

What dumb noble is going to shout at Cersei in the Throne Room with the Mountain right there?

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21 hours ago, jcmontea said:

The problem from a doyalist perspective is it makes it tough to write the story in a way that olenna gets taken out and cersei gets the gold.

Which once again puts Dorne in the running, or just makes a Dany flattening work.

Basically: Pure Watsonian - The Reach or Dragonstone, followed by Dany stomping Cersei.

Pure Doylist - But muh Lena Headey we need to prolong the war somehow.

Yeah, I think prolonging the war no matter what is what doesn't make sense, but it's such a crucial part of Season 7 that doing what makes sense from a watsonian perspective would require a full-on rewrite.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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29 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

What dumb noble is going to shout at Cersei in the Throne Room with the Mountain right there?

People that start a uprising because that woman has no business sitting on a Throne when she's nowhere close to the line of succession. There just shouldn't be hordes of nobles standing by like that.

I think if Cecily Neville would have just planted her ass on the Throne after Richard III croaked, somebody would have had some strong words for her. Words which would have included "guards" and "dungeon".

Edited by Orphalesion

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12 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

People that start a uprising because that woman has no business sitting on a Throne when she's nowhere close to the line of succession.

More like stupid dead people

Edited by jcmontea

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6 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Which once again puts Dorne in the running, or just makes a Dany flattening work.

Basically: Pure Watsonian - The Reach or Dragonstone, followed by Dany stomping Cersei.

Pure Doylist - But muh Lena Headey we need to prolong the war somehow.

Yeah, I think prolonging the war no matter what isn't what makes sense, but it's such a crucial part of Season 7 that doing what makes sense from a watsonian perspective would require a full-on rewrite.

There are a lot of things you can do without using an unrealistic landing spot. 

The simplest would be just speed up Bran’s raven notifying that the WW invasion is iminent and/ or have Dany immediately believe Jon about the WW threat because reasons 

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

More like stupid dead people

They are dead anyway with her in charge.

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11 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

They are dead anyway with her in charge.

Why would they be dead with her in charge? And the answer can’t be the WW simce they don’t know about that 

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On the other hand, a wight Daenerys would be pretty scary, considering she can’t be burnt.

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6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

On the other hand, a wight Daenerys would be pretty scary, considering she can’t be burnt.

Pre-S6ish: Totally.
Post-S6ish/S7: Wights can inexplicably be killed by dragonglass, so, there is that.

Though, it raises an interesting question. If Daenerys got "wighted" -- would she retain her fireproof skin and hair? :huh:

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