Beardy the Wildling

[S7] What would you have done differently?

110 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Wasn't there something in the books about the Dothraki being seasick?

Possibility 2: Land in the Reach, pick up Jorah at Oldtown after Sam flays him, Olenna will raise her banners?

They had them sea sick on the show as well travelling to Astapor. 

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41 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

You basically have to invent some reason to make it happen and freaking sea sickness is a super stupid one since it doesn’t take that much longer to sail to the reach or to dragonstone and the more logical thing is just to have people who are sick fast untilt they reach land.

Dragonstone, yes, not much further, the Reach, yes, much further.

Remember, as well as seasickness there's issues with food supplies. Not to mention all the assumptions you have to make to think you stand a chance of making it to/settling on Dragonstone I mentioned.

Yes, the Reach is better than Dorne because of the mountains, but desperation would play a factor in a journey that massive with that many people. After all, even with the Dornish mountains in the way, who is it that controls the passes through the mountains that have allowed it to maintain its independent culture? None other than the Dornish themselves. By your logic, the Knights of the Vale should have never been able to leave the Vale of Arryn, let alone inexplicably pass Moat Cailin. But lemme guess, you have a way which shows how tactically superior all the showmakers are with regard to that too.

At least Dany would be ostensibly surrounded by allies in Dorne, as opposed to being passed by Euron and potentially Cersei and ex-Stannis fleets here there and everywhere.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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29 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

They had them sea sick on the show as well travelling to Astapor. 

I forgot about that.

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4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Dragonstone, yes, not much further, the Reach, yes, much further.

How many days?

4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Remember, as well as seasickness there's issues with food supplies. Not to mention all the assumptions you have to make to think you stand a chance of making it to/settling on Dragonstone I mentioned.

Yes, the Reach is better than Dorne because of the mountains, but desperation would play a factor in a journey that massive with that many people. After all, even with the Dornish mountains in the way, who is it that controls the passes through the mountains that have allowed it to maintain its independent culture?

Has less to do with who controls the mountains and more with the logistical challenge of getting an army that big through them. 

4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

None other than the Dornish themselves. By your logic, the Knights of the Vale should have never been able to leave the Vale of Arryn, let alone inexplicably pass Moat Cailin.

Not necessarily. Its pretty well established that the Vale can get its army into the riverlands fairly easily. Not all mountaints are necessarily equal. Don’t think the same thing is established for Dorne and in fact i think the opposite is established, 

4 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

But lemme guess, you have a way which shows how tactically superior all the showmakers are with regard to that too.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean

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6 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Not necessarily. Its pretty well established that the Vale can get its army into the riverlands fairly easily. Not all mountaints are necessarily equal. Don’t think the same thing is established for Dorne and in fact i think the opposite is established, 

It's been established the Dornish can fight in battles within the rest of Westeros (like Robert's Rebellion), at the very least, so there's clearly some ways to circumnavigate the Dornish Mountains, or at least circumnavigate on the Dornish's terms.

In fact, it seems the Dornish's ability to remain separated and neutral when they want and able to fight on their own terms seems to make Dorne a little better off for Dany to land: It's a highly defensible spot.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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22 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

It's been established the Dornish can fight in battles within the rest of Westeros (like Robert's Rebellion), at the very least, so there's clearly some ways to circumnavigate the Dornish Mountains, or at least circumnavigate on the Dornish's terms.

In fact, it seems the Dornish's ability to remain separated and neutral when they want and able to fight on their own terms seems to make Dorne a little better off for Dany to land: It's a highly defensible spot.

In what battle of Robert’s Rebellion did the Dornish fight? How many men did they send? And how did they get there? And where was their supply line from? 

locations where its difficult to project power from are indeed very defensible. But when you have the numbers and need to be on offense in order to win not sure that is relevant. 

Edited by jcmontea

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

In what battle of Robert’s Rebellion did the Dornish fight?

Battle of the Trident and apparently the defence of King's Landing. In Battle of the Trident it's certain, as they were led by Prince Lewyn Martell (who died alongside Rhaegar).

Edit: Yes, Lewyn marched the Dornishmen up via the Kingsroad to meet Rhaegar's troops, apparently. So the Kingsroad definitely has a pass.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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6 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Battle of the Trident and apparently the defence of King's Landing. In Battle of the Trident it's certain, as they were led by Prince Lewyn Martell (who died alongside Rhaegar).

Edit: Yes, Lewyn marched the Dornishmen up via the Kingsroad to meet Rhaegar's troops, apparently. So the Kingsroad definitely has a pass.

How many men was that? How were they feed?  What was their supply line?

Is that the equivalent of 120k person host? 100k of which are on horses. 

Edited by jcmontea

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24 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

How many men was that? How were they feed?  What was their supply line?

Is that the equivalent of 120k person host? 100k of which are on horses. 

The Wiki page on the Battle of the Trident gives 40k for the Loyalists, less than that for the Rebels, with 10k of the combatants Dornish.

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34 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

How many men was that? How were they feed?  What was their supply line?

Is that the equivalent of 120k person host? 100k of which are on horses. 

Admittedly, yeah, it's only 10k, so it's not a Dany host, to be sure. Still, landing in Dorne is much more defensible (and filled with allies) than the island Euron literally has to sail past to meet Cersei.

I think your suggestion of the Reach is the most workable for a big offense, but requires a lot of sailing, and Dorne works for a solid defense with a trickled, possibly ineffectual offense (which works well if you need a Lena Headey contract to pay off).

Either way, it's a fuck load better than the show's 'Dragonstone 'cause Dany was born there lol how fitting' when she hasn't yet had the opportunity to go earn Dragonstone.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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18 minutes ago, Beardy the Wildling said:

Admittedly, yeah, it's only 10k, so it's not a Dany host, to be sure. Still, landing in Dorne is much more defensible (and filled with allies) than the island Euron literally has to sail past to meet Cersei.

I think your suggestion of the Reach is the most workable for a big offense, but requires a lot of sailing, and Dorne works for a solid defense with a trickled, possibly ineffectual offense (which works well if you need a Lena Headey contract to pay off).

Either way, it's a fuck load better than the show's 'Dragonstone 'cause Dany was born there lol how fitting' when she hasn't yet had the opportunity to go earn Dragonstone.

The Reach is the best and probably only landing that is defensible on military grounds. 

Dragonstone would have made more sense if the plan was to do a naval blockade of the blackwater bay. Since they scrapped that it was nice because of those beautiful views and symbolism as long as you didn’t think too hard about how they were feeding and housing that large army.

Dorne makes no sense if your goal is to conquer westeros and take KL. If you want to set up a nice hippe commune in a defensible location sure. 

On a side note, will be interesting to see where she lands in the books. If she lands at Dragonstone Preston will release a video talking about how brilliant Dragonstone is for a landing. 

Edited by jcmontea

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4 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

Dorne makes no sense if your goal is to conquer westeros and take KL. If you want to set up a nice hippe commune in a defensible location sure. 

Agreed in that with the Dornish Mountains and the fact Lewyn Martell only managed to get 10k Dornishmen out of Dorne, it'd slow down the war a fuck ton, but hey, the War of the Five Kings took its time too, and Robb marched practically the whole North down via the Twins, which would have also had to have been a trickle.

But yeah, if they insist on going Dragonstone despite all the assumptions you need to make, a naval blockade of the Blackwater would be a good, if boring way to oust Cersei without insta-deploying dragons.

Alas, with Dorne, the Reach, and Blockade-Dragonstone, these are all not flashy enough for the show. Sindragosa needs to happen, guys!

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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41 minutes ago, jcmontea said:

The Reach is the best and probably only landing that is defensible on military grounds. 

Dragonstone would have made more sense if the plan was to do a naval blockade of the blackwater bay. Since they scrapped that it was nice because of those beautiful views and symbolism as long as you didn’t think too hard about how they were feeding and housing that large army.

Dorne makes no sense if your goal is to conquer westeros and take KL. If you want to set up a nice hippe commune in a defensible location sure. 

On a side note, will be interesting to see where she lands in the books. If she lands at Dragonstone Preston will release a video talking about how brilliant Dragonstone is for a landing. 

I remember I posted something in this about landing at Oldtown and picking up Jorah there after Sam flays the greyscale off him.

Suggestion Revised:

Season 7 Episode 1: Daenerys and company arrive off the coast of Dorne, but decide to go to Oldtown. Since Euron is (presumably) at King's Landing, they won't run into him. 

Season 7 Episode 2: Daenerys and company reach Oldtown, pick up Jorah. Olenna raises her banners. Daenerys crowned in Oldtown (rule of symbolism, Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown, was he not?)

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

I remember I posted something in this about landing at Oldtown and picking up Jorah there after Sam flays the greyscale off him.

Suggestion Revised:

Season 7 Episode 1: Daenerys and company arrive off the coast of Dorne, but decide to go to Oldtown. Since Euron is (presumably) at King's Landing, they won't run into him. 

Season 7 Episode 2: Daenerys and company reach Oldtown, pick up Jorah. Olenna raises her banners. Daenerys crowned in Oldtown (rule of symbolism, Aegon the Conqueror was crowned in Oldtown, was he not?)

How would they know Euron is at KL? 

A Dany crowing scene in Oldtown would have been cool. Although it does seem like the show is holding off on that for some reason.

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1 hour ago, jcmontea said:

How would they know Euron is at KL? 

A Dany crowing scene in Oldtown would have been cool. Although it does seem like the show is holding off on that for some reason.

Well, considering the timing in the episode, Euron arrives at King’s Landing before Daenerys and company arrive at Dragonstone.

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47 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, considering the timing in the episode, Euron arrives at King’s Landing before Daenerys and company arrive at Dragonstone.

Unless someone has teleportation or a jetpack...

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21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Unless someone has teleportation or a jetpack...

Doesn't everyone by Season 7?

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, considering the timing in the episode, Euron arrives at King’s Landing before Daenerys and company arrive at Dragonstone.

Yea but thats my question. How would they know Euron is in KL if he got their while they were in route? Do ravens get sent to boats?

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On 11/22/2017 at 11:53 AM, Faera said:

A huge problem with the show's scripts now is that you can't tell whether they are character-driven or plot driven anymore. Prior to them running out of books to adapt, I always saw the show as a very character driven show. Yes, there was obviously a plot going on but its progression is a lot more to do with the character's motivations as each one reacted differently to similar situations. Now, it doesn't matter who the characters are -- they just need to get to a certain point. As a result, there are many more cases of scenes where dialogue appears that could have been said by anyone.

Agree 1,000%

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On 9/11/2017 at 10:49 PM, Tagganaro said:

Anything that involves more Dorne just doesn't make sense to me.  The showrunners (and I'd argue GRRM too) already screwed the pooch with that one and going back there would just remind people of how dumb and pointless it was in the first place.  I honestly think that's the one area that D & D unquestionably did right by this season- get rid of the Sandsnakes and create a great scene with Cersei killing Ellaria.

I've said before that there were 2 main problems with this season- 1 is that it was built around the wight hunt which was just building a foundation on a house of cards.  2 is that Cersei had to stick around because I think D & D realized how great Lena Headey was and they wanted her around for Season 8 too.

My fix would be relatively simple- Dany would take over the Iron Throne pretty quickly and easily, Jaime kills Cersei, etc.  You just basically are cutting the South and Crownlands out of the story quickly.  Then you can position Dany demanding fealty from the North and Jon refusing to give it as the main storyline.  You can have them negotiating back and forth because Dany doesn't really want to have to take her army north and risk all these casualties.  

I think that basic fix would be far more logical in terms of the wight hunt (if you even still need to do it) and it would give a lot more time to the truly important characters like the Starks, Dany, Tyrion, etc.

I agree. The wight hunt was the first thing I'd change, which was the core of the season and basically because of that, the character's decisions made no sense.

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