SunfyreTheGolden

What would have happened if R+L=J was %100 true and Lyanna survived ToJ?

28 posts in this topic

What makes you think she died at the Tower of Joy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Seams said:

What makes you think she died at the Tower of Joy?

If she survived, Ned would have left Jon with her, and hid them both somewhere, and said to everyone that she is dead. But he wouldn't have separated them.

 

If Lyanna was alive, and Ned told to Robert about her and the baby, then Robert would have killed little Jon, and then Lyanna would have commited suicide. Or she would have killed herself after learning that Robert killed Rhaegar. If she was strong enough to live, after knowing about death of her beloved, then she could have went into hiding, together with her baby, with Ned's help.

And years later she would have returned with grown up Aegon Targaryen, and get back Iron Throne for her son, with help of Ned, The North, The Vale (because her brother's sister-in-law was married to Lord of The Vale, who was also friend and supporter of her brother), Riverlands (because her other sister-in-law, the one that is married to his brother, would have also supported Ned's sister and nephew), The Reach (Tyrells originally were loyal to Targaryens), and all Targaryen supporters.

People were against Mad King, they weren't against Targaryens in general. Furthermore people loved Rhaegar. So if 15-16 years after rebellion, appeared Targaryen Prince, son of Rhaegar, people would have supported him over Robert, who was a brute, druncard, and disgrace as a King. Anyone in their sane mind will support someone like Jon, over someone like Robert.

Also most likely other Targaryens' supporters would have helped to reunite their family. So Jon would have lived together with Viserys and Daenerys, all three raised by Lyanna (which would have greatly improved Viserys' personality, and made Dany to grow up to be an amazon and warrior princess, similar to Lyanna's she-wolf personality, instead of a meek and feeble girl she was in the beginning of Song). And that would have been a three headed dragon from the prophecy.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

King Robert would claim her, Jon would still be claimed as Neds 

Are you sure Robert would still take her as his beloved queen if he knows that Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar (dumped him) and birthed a baby for Rhaegar (even Ned hid Jon, people would still figure out easily Lyanna had delivered a baby)? Unless Lyanna asked Ned to hide Jon and claimed she was kidnaped and raped by Rhaegar. But I highly doubt a noble, strong-willed and honorable Lyanna would lie to Robert like this and dishonor her beloved Rhaegar. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

If she survived, Ned would have left Jon with her, and hid them both somewhere, and said to everyone that she is dead. But he wouldn't have separated them.

 

If Lyanna was alive, and Ned told to Robert about her and the baby, then Robert would have killed little Jon, and then Lyanna would have commited suicide. Or she would have killed herself after learning that Robert killed Rhaegar. If she was strong enough to live, after knowing about death of her beloved, then she could have went into hiding, together with her baby, with Ned's help.

And years later she would have returned with grown up Aegon Targaryen, and get back Iron Throne for her son, with help of Ned, The North, The Vale (because her brother's sister-in-law was married to Lord of The Vale, who was also friend and supporter of her brother), Riverlands (because her other sister-in-law, the one that is married to his brother, would have also supported Ned's sister and nephew), The Reach (Tyrells originally were loyal to Targaryens), and all Targaryen supporters.

People were against Mad King, they weren't against Targaryens in general. Furthermore people loved Rhaegar. So if 15-16 years after rebellion, appeared Targaryen Prince, son of Rhaegar, people would have supported him over Robert, who was a brute, druncard, and disgrace as a King. Anyone in their sane mind will support someone like Jon, over someone like Robert.

Also most likely other Targaryens' supporters would have helped to reunite their family. So Jon would have lived together with Viserys and Daenerys, all three raised by Lyanna (which would have greatly improved Viserys' personality, and made Dany to grow up to be an amazon and warrior princess, similar to Lyanna's she-wolf personality, instead of a meek and feeble girl she was in the beginning of Song). And that would have been a three headed dragon from the prophecy.

Would Ned support Lyanna to depose his best buddy Robert? 

Would Jon Arryn support Lyanna to depose his beloved foster son Robert whom he rebelled for? 

And why would Lysa support Lyanna just because she is Lyanna’s brother’s sister in law? Did Lysa even support Robb, her own nephew? 

Would Lannister support Lyanna to depose Robert (and remove queenship of Cersei)? 

Would Tully support Lyanna if Ned and Jon Arryn do not want to support Lyanna? 

Dorne would never support Lyanna for obvious reason. 

Then would Reach support Lyanna if nobody else supports Lyanna? 

By the way, how would Lyanna prove that Jon is the trueborn son of Rhaegar, not a bastard? By claiming high septon secretly annulled Rhaegar’s first marriage and married her? To be honest, how could she even prove a Stark-look Jon is Rhaegar’s son anyway, especially after 15 years? 

Plus Lyanna might want to explain to people the truth about her “kidnapping” firstly before asking people to support her son’s claim to Iron Throne. 

like “hey, I loved Rhaegar and just went out for a honeymoon with him. no kidnapping at all. sorry for the misunderstanding and a little bit trouble afterwards. Why do not you guys depose Robert again and let my son reclaim the Iron Throne?” 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, SunfyreTheGolden said:

This is so mindf*ck. 

She would have to die before eddard got back to KL so the story could continue as written 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fake her own death, take Jon and hide in the Neck along with the rest of Ned's secrets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Snip

There are certain details that doesn't make sense. For example who informed Ned about his sister's kidnapping? And, what is even more important, why when Mad King was already defeated, and Robert with Ned arrived to King's Landing, Ned went to Dorne to look for Lyanna, and Robert stayed behind to marry with Cersei, and to proceed with his coronation? Supposedly the whole rebellion started because of Lyanna. So why Robert didn't went to retrive her? Why Robert didn't looked for Lyanna, after he killed Rhaegar? Looks like becoming King was a real reason for everything Robert did.

I think that rebellion was planned beforehand by Tywin Lannister and Robert. Robert knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, and that actually she escaped with Rhaegar. Probably he was the one who informed Brandon about kidnapping of his little sister. And knowing Brandon's hot temper, Robert intentionally made him lose control and charge towards King's Landing with demands and insults towards Rhaegar. Robert knew that Rhaegar wouldn't be there, but Aerys will be at Red Keep. Thus after how Brandon will behave himself, it was definite that Aerys will sentence him to death. Then Tywin's people intensified Aerys' paranoia, and provoked him to send that demand to Jon Arryn, to deliver to him heads of Ned and Robert. After which three kingdoms united in rebellion against Mad King.

Also in course of rebellion, died sons of Jon Arryn. If the reason for rebellion was fake, and Robert used everyone to get himself to sit on Iron Throne, then, when Jon Arryn learned the truth, he would have supported Lyanna, and helped her to make Jon King of 7K, as a payback for Robert's deception.

Same thing about The North and Riverlands - Robert lied to Brandon, and made him to barge into mad dragon's den. That way Cat lost her beloved fiance, and Lysa had to marry with an old Jon Arryn, even though she loved Little Finger.

Dorne would have also supported Lyanna and her child. Because marriage annulment was supported by Elia Martell. It's impossible to annul marriage without both spouses knowing about it. And Elia never told anyone about change of her marital status, thus she supported Rhaegar's decicion. She believed in the prophecy, and agreed with Rhaegar that he has to have one more child. But she wasn't able to bear children anymore, so she had to be replaced by other woman, that will become mother of Rhaegar's third child. If Elia supported Rhaegar, then her people will also support his son.

The North, The Vale, Riverlands, and Dorne would have supported Jon's claim. And The Reach would also join them, because Tyrells are opportunists, and they always wanted to have more power, and make alliances. And Lyanna's side had Jon/Aegon Targaryen, Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen, Robb Stark and Sansa Stark, while Tyrells had Margaery and Loras, to marry them off, and form a benefitual for Tyrells alliances.

Ned knew that Jon was a legitimate son, and not a bastard. Also if Lyanna survived, she would have had evidences that Jon is Rhaegar's son. And High Septon that married them, could have also testified. Not to mention people that were present in Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon. Probably those people, servants, maester, maids, wet nurse, were there for some time, even prior Rhaegar went back to King's Landing. So all of them could have also supported Lyanna's claim that her baby is a Targaryen. And it's also not necessary for Lyanna to conceal identity of her child, from everyone, for all those years. If there will be a few Targaryen loyalists beside her, they will prove to other people, even many years after rebellion, that this young man is son of Rhaegar. Same as people never question whether Viserys is who he claims to be, and that Daenerys is a Targaryen princess. People believed that they are who they claimed to be, not only because of their eye or hair color. Also not all Targaryens were blue/violet-eyed blondes. If I remember correctly, Rhaegar's and Elia's daughter had dark hair and eyes, and number of Targaryens in Dunk and Egg's tales were also dark haired.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The safest option would be for Ned to claim Jon as his bastard and keep Lyanna safely hidden for her own protection as well as Jon’s. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Megorova said:

There are certain details that doesn't make sense. For example who informed Ned about his sister's kidnapping? And, what is even more important, why when Mad King was already defeated, and Robert with Ned arrived to King's Landing, Ned went to Dorne to look for Lyanna, and Robert stayed behind to marry with Cersei, and to proceed with his coronation? Supposedly the whole rebellion started because of Lyanna. So why Robert didn't went to retrive her? Why Robert didn't looked for Lyanna, after he killed Rhaegar? Looks like becoming King was a real reason for everything Robert did.

I think that rebellion was planned beforehand by Tywin Lannister and Robert. Robert knew that Lyanna wasn't kidnapped, and that actually she escaped with Rhaegar. Probably he was the one who informed Brandon about kidnapping of his little sister. And knowing Brandon's hot temper, Robert intentionally made him lose control and charge towards King's Landing with demands and insults towards Rhaegar. Robert knew that Rhaegar wouldn't be there, but Aerys will be at Red Keep. Thus after how Brandon will behave himself, it was definite that Aerys will sentence him to death. Then Tywin's people intensified Aerys' paranoia, and provoked him to send that demand to Jon Arryn, to deliver to him heads of Ned and Robert. After which three kingdoms united in rebellion against Mad King.

Also in course of rebellion, died sons of Jon Arryn. If the reason for rebellion was fake, and Robert used everyone to get himself to sit on Iron Throne, then, when Jon Arryn learned the truth, he would have supported Lyanna, and helped her to make Jon King of 7K, as a payback for Robert's deception.

Same thing about The North and Riverlands - Robert lied to Brandon, and made him to barge into mad dragon's den. That way Cat lost her beloved fiance, and Lysa had to marry with an old Jon Arryn, even though she loved Little Finger.

Dorne would have also supported Lyanna and her child. Because marriage annulment was supported by Elia Martell. It's impossible to annul marriage without both spouses knowing about it. And Elia never told anyone about change of her marital status, thus she supported Rhaegar's decicion. She believed in the prophecy, and agreed with Rhaegar that he has to have one more child. But she wasn't able to bear children anymore, so she had to be replaced by other woman, that will become mother of Rhaegar's third child. If Elia supported Rhaegar, then her people will also support his son.

The North, The Vale, Riverlands, and Dorne would have supported Jon's claim. And The Reach would also join them, because Tyrells are opportunists, and they always wanted to have more power, and make alliances. And Lyanna's side had Jon/Aegon Targaryen, Viserys and Daenerys Targaryen, Robb Stark and Sansa Stark, while Tyrells had Margaery and Loras, to marry them off, and form a benefitual for Tyrells alliances.

Ned knew that Jon was a legitimate son, and not a bastard. Also if Lyanna survived, she would have had evidences that Jon is Rhaegar's son. And High Septon that married them, could have also testified. Not to mention people that were present in Tower of Joy, when Lyanna was giving birth to Jon. Probably those people, servants, maester, maids, wet nurse, were there for some time, even prior Rhaegar went back to King's Landing. So all of them could have also supported Lyanna's claim that her baby is a Targaryen. And it's also not necessary for Lyanna to conceal identity of her child, from everyone, for all those years. If there will be a few Targaryen loyalists beside her, they will prove to other people, even many years after rebellion, that this young man is son of Rhaegar. Same as people never question whether Viserys is who he claims to be, and that Daenerys is a Targaryen princess. People believed that they are who they claimed to be, not only because of their eye or hair color. Also not all Targaryens were blue/violet-eyed blondes. If I remember correctly, Rhaegar's and Elia's daughter had dark hair and eyes, and number of Targaryens in Dunk and Egg's tales were also dark haired.

Several points here: 

1. This is book forum and yet you used a lot of stuff from the show (annulment of marriage with Elia, high septon wedded Rhaegar and Lyanna etc.)  This is wrong. 

2. A lot of various errors and lack of information here and there which made me wondering how familar you are with the book. Like “sons of Jon Arryn”, “why Robert did not looked for Lyanna after Trident”. (he was badly injured and could not lead the army or go to Storm’s end with Ned.)

3. Genius opinion on how Robert planned this rebellion with Tywin, lied to Brandon, doomed House Stark and installed himself as king. GRRM should take note now. It is a mindblower. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Faera said:

Fake her own death, take Jon and hide in the Neck along with the rest of Ned's secrets.

Agree, faking her death would be the safest way to protect Jon as well as saving her from a marriage to Robert. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2017 at 7:38 PM, purple-eyes said:

Then would Reach support Lyanna if nobody else supports Lyanna? 

I wouldn't underestimate the ever crafty Mace Tyrell. As fate would have it Mace Tyrell had a new born daughter himself. Having just come out of the war on a the losing side The Lord of Highgarden is in a precarious position. How could he possibly foresee a way to advance his House when he has just laid siege to his current King's ancestral home?  Well, he could take in Lyanna and her son in secret. Mentor the boy, as only he could, to be a leader that is both fair and fearsome. Betroth him to his daughter and have his Hightower kin and High Septon forge documents that make Rhaegar and Lyanna's union legal. When the time is right he unveil's the new King and Queen of Westeros....Profit

Mace Tyrell, the new Hand of the King, Father of the Queen, Father in all but blood to the King, Best Friend and Lover to the King's mother  Lyanna... If that doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies I don't know what will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lyanna has different body because of child birth so Ned has to say she died but she get shipped to Essos or the Neck with Howland Reed and takes baby with her or Ned takes the baby and tells Robert Lyanna would like to wait a few months before she meets him because she wants to be pretty for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

1. This is book forum and yet you used a lot of stuff from the show (annulment of marriage with Elia, high septon wedded Rhaegar and Lyanna etc.)  This is wrong. 

2. A lot of various errors and lack of information here and there which made me wondering how familar you are with the book. Like “sons of Jon Arryn”, “why Robert did not looked for Lyanna after Trident”. (he was badly injured and could not lead the army or go to Storm’s end with Ned.)

3. Genius opinion on how Robert planned this rebellion with Tywin, lied to Brandon, doomed House Stark and installed himself as king. GRRM should take note now. It is a mindblower. 

1. In the book the same thing will happen. Happened.

I'm basing this conclusion on Aerys' announcement after Rhaegar's death, that his heir will be Viserys, and not Aegon. I think that this proves that Rhaegar informed his father, about change of legal status of his children. He annulled his marriage with Elia, and their children became bastards, thus next in succession line was Viserys (until Lyanna's baby will be born).

I'm not basing this on information from show. Even without revelation from last episode of GOT, I would've still made a conclusion that Rhaegar annulled his marriage with Elia and married with Lyanna. There were many clues in the books, when various people were remembering Rhaegar, and what kind of person he was. So I'm absolutely certain that person like him wouldn't have kidnapped Lyanna, or bedded her without marriage. And Dany's vision about Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon, and mentioning about three headed dragon, and details about Elia's health, all this combined together means that Elia wasn't against Rhaegar leaving her, and finding another woman to fulfill his prophecy about three Targaryens. Add to this that Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting, and her brother was guarding Lyanna at Tower of Joy, instead of killing her or going away, which probably means that Ashara and Elia both knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and they weren't against it.

About marriage - it's obvious from the books that Rhaegar and Elia weren't together anymore. Thus either they divorced, or annulled their marriage. And person like Rhaegar definitely married with his new love. And who can divorce/marry a Crown Prince? -> High Septon. Someone of lesser standing doesn't have enough authority.

Information from show has nothing to do with my theory. I made same conclusions based on information from books alone.

2. Not a fan of Song books, too many points of view, don't like this jumping from one person to another. I like Dunk&Egg more than main story. 

Well someone of Jon Arryn did died before he married with Lysa, which was one of the reason why he married.

But when Robert recuperated he went to King's Landing, and after Aerys' death, he also didn't went to search Lyanna. Both he and Ned were at Red Keep, but only Ned went to Dorne. Ned's father and brother were killed, his sister was missing, this became reasons for rebellion. But as result of it, Robert became King of 7K. What did he lost? All loses were Ned's. The only thing Robert lost, was Lyanna, but when he defeated all his enemies, and could have went to get her back, he didn't. Why? If Lyanna's kidnapping was a real reason for his rebellion, then why didn't he even tried to find her?

3. Tywin planned rebellion, Robert was only one of his pawns. Tywin was looking for many years how to depose Aerys. And finally he used situation between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Robert, to get rid of Targaryens, and sieze Iron Throne for himself.

I also think that Tywin killed Robert's parents (hired Faceless Man (Patchface) to prevent Steffon Baratheon from finding Valyrian wife for Rhaegar). Lyanna was Knight of the Laughing Tree. Ashara Dayne is alive, she's wife of Howland Reed, Jyana Reed. Edric Dayne is her and Howlands son, twin brother of Jojen. The Dawn sword is hiden in crypts at Winterfell. It's a Lightbringer from the prophecy about Prince that was promised. Iron Bank and Faceless Men are from the same organisation.

My theories are far fetched, but they have at least some basis from the books, unlike theory that Bran is Night's King/leader of White Walkers, or that he can change the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm basing this conclusion on Aerys' announcement after Rhaegar's death, that his heir will be Viserys, and not Aegon. 

Aerys did that because he believed Dorne betrayed them, nothing to do with Rhaegar

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm basing this conclusion on Aerys' announcement after Rhaegar's death, that his heir will be Viserys, and not Aegon. I think that this proves that Rhaegar informed his father

Aerys was paranoid that his son was trying to overthrow him, like hell he'd let Rhaegar marry into a House 100x more stronger and influential than the Martells.  

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

He annulled his marriage with Elia, and their children became bastards, thus next in succession line was Viserys (until Lyanna's baby will be born)

Why would he do that? Aegon's his PTWP and there's 0 evidence Rhaegar changed his mind about this, in fact I'm pretty sure he was expecting Lyanna to give him a girl.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm not basing this on information from show. Even without revelation from last episode of GOT, I would've still made a conclusion that Rhaegar annulled his marriage with Elia and married with Lyanna.

  1. Annulments aren't that easy and I don't think divorce exists in Westeros 
  2. There's literally no reason for Rhaegar to make Rhaenys and Aegon bastards
  3. If Rhaegar did marry her (which I doubt) it was most likely as his second wife because there's a precedent for Targaryen polygamy
3 hours ago, Megorova said:

There were many clues in the books, when various people were remembering Rhaegar, and what kind of person he was. So I'm absolutely certain that person like him wouldn't have kidnapped Lyanna, or bedded her without marriage.

He's also the same guy that publicly disrespected his wife, triggered a civil war, abandoned his wife and kids, impregnated a 15 year old girl, went off to fight said 15 year old girl's family... 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Dany's vision about Rhaegar and Elia with newborn Aegon, and mentioning about three headed dragon, and details about Elia's health, all this combined together means that Elia wasn't against Rhaegar leaving her, and finding another woman to fulfill his prophecy about three Targaryens.

Just because Rhaegar decided that Aegon needed a third head doesn't mean Elia was ok with him running off with a 15 year old girl, not only is it highly disrespectful but it also damages her reputation and status. 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Add to this that Ashara Dayne was Elia's lady-in-waiting, and her brother was guarding Lyanna at Tower of Joy, instead of killing her or going away, which probably means that Ashara and Elia both knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and they weren't against it.

This is speculation I doubt Elia had a say in what her husband did, and to be honest I don't think Lyanna did either

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

About marriage - it's obvious from the books that Rhaegar and Elia weren't together anymore. Thus either they divorced, or annulled their marriage. And person like Rhaegar definitely married with his new love.

  1. It actually isn't obvious in the books, Elia was still in Dragonstone with their children before Aerys demanded them to return to Kingslanding 
  2. Like I said before annulment isn't that simple and there's no evidence of divorce in Westeros
  3. Rhaegar seems more like a person who thinks a prophecy is more important than the stability of the realm so sees no fault in running off with a liege lord's daughter who is also the betrothed of another liege lord
  4. Rhaegar wanted to save Westeros from the Others, that's a lot more sympathetic (though not entirely redeemable) than him thinking with his dick don't you think? 

Going back to OP's question:

I can see Ned faking Lyanna's death so she can be at peace and simply tells everyone that Jon's his bastard

Edited by Pikachu101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

 

Going back to OP's question:

I can see Ned faking Lyanna's death so she can be at peace and simply tells everyone that Jon's his bastard

 

So same story would probably have happened. Except for some little changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 09.11.2017 at 2:29 AM, Seams said:

What makes you think she died at the Tower of Joy?

Ned remembers Lyanna died in his arms. In Eddard I in AGoT. Her last words were 'Promise me'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't there any possibility Ned sends Jon and Lyanna to Essos like Targaryen kids did later? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SunfyreTheGolden said:

Wasn't there any possibility Ned sends Jon and Lyanna to Essos like Targaryen kids did later? 

There’s no need, Rhaella fled because as Targaryens her children were in danger, if no one knows Jon’s a Targ then Ned has no reason to fret. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now