Corvo the Crow

The Marriage Game

57 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, Faera said:

Another crazy pairing would have been if Joanna had survived giving birth to Tyrion -- she almost certainly would have tried to engage Oberyn to Cersei. Can you imagine that, Cersei in Dorne?

This might actually have been good. Cersei's lust for power and influence would not have been so badly thwarted in Dorne, with its more egalitarian mores. She would have enjoyed the loose sexuality also, leaving Jaime far behind. Plus, she might never need to see Tyrion again, which would help her precarious sanity. One might even imagine The Red Viper and Cersei as a kind of Westerosi Frank & Claire Underwood,* power political couple. I can see Oberyn getting his vengeance a lot sooner that way...

---------

"House of Cards" Netflix series

Edited by zandru

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46 minutes ago, Faera said:

I actually think the crannogman lifestyle would agree with Arya given their culture allowing women to become huntresses. So, it might worked out well for her, if Ned and Howland didn't hook up Robb and Meera first.

Given Bran seemed pretty serious about becoming a knight, and even now is resentful not to be able to be one, I think he very likely would have gone South to ward, squire, get his knighthood, win acclaim and try and make the kingsguard.

Yes, the Tallharts are well overdue a Stark match, so they probably would get Rickon for Eddara.

That would make sense, though I imagine a more glamorous life down South would have appealed to Sansa more. Not that she'd have had a choice -- Ned would have had the final say.

I don't remember. We really don't know much about Domeric, other than he served as his aunt Barbrey's page and was fostered in the Vale. If he were to have some non-Northern wife, it might have been a Redfort woman.

Sansa wasn't ever going to marry Theon so it makes no sense, it was just one of Theon's fantasies. Also Ned didn't have any final say; him calling off the betrothal to Joffrey was an extreme behaviour for his character, he would have consented to most about anybody Sansa wished to marry, given they weren't far beneath her. Loras, for example, is beneath her while Willas is not.

If Bran became a KG would Rickon get lands and a wife or he joins the NW as a dutiful third son would do like Benjen or Waymar?

Royce family is a nice parallel to Starks in this regard. Heir stays, second is off seeking fortune third is NW.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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24 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If Bran became a KG would Rickon get lands and a wife or he joins the NW as a dutiful third son would do like Benjen or Waymar?

 

If Bran joined the Kingsguard, (Thanks to nepotism wouldn't have been hard for him), Rickon would have become "The Spare". So, he would probably only have been encouraged to join the Night's Watch as the "dutiful third son" if there was no dire need of him. That said, the age difference is big enough that Rickon might not be needed for long. Especially if Robb married someone like Meera. Given she is close to Robb in age, the two of them could start having kids pretty quickly and could already have two or three sons of their own by the time Rickon reached the age of majority. In that case, yes, I could see Rickon following Benjen and Jon into the NW.

Edited by Faera

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17 hours ago, Faera said:

1. Given Bran wanted to make the Kingsguard, had he not had his accident, he probably would have been warded somewhere in the South, squired for someone in KL and never got a proper betrothal that got seen through. (God, imagine him having to deal with fully-grown Joffrey, especially if he still got to marry Sansa.)

2. I could also definitely see Ned wanting a match between Robb and Meera for sentiment sake since he and Howland were besties; same reason Robert wanted Sansa for Joffrey.

3. Then there is Theon Greyjoy - would he have married him to one of his daughters, or found him another safe Northern wife?

1. Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar or Jaime; Lysa wanted to marry with Petyr; doesn't matter what children wanted, they were married with whoever their parents see fitted. Bran is second son, so there's more chances for Rickon to live his life the way he wants. But Bran will have to stay in The North and be a spare, in case if something will happen with Ned's heir apparent. Also if he will go to KL, and become there a knight, eventually he will be disapointed with reality. One look at King Robert, or a few hours in Joffrey's company, and Bran will go back home.

2. Robb and Meera could be a good match, though I remembered one detail that makes this match nearly impossible - Ned never told his children about his friendship with Howland, or more like about his part in events at Tower of Joy, and death of Arthur Dayne. So it's unlikely that Ned will want his son to learn about it from his new relatives. Thus any marriages between Starks and Reeds are out of the question.

3. Theon is Stark's hostage, so it's unlikely that they will ever let him marry with daughter of some lord, and gain power. In best case they can allow him to marry with a peasant girl.

11 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Also I highly doubt Margaery Tyrell or her family would want her to become the next Lady of Winterfell. I'm sure she and her family would much rather have her marry Edmure Tully, the next Lord Paramount of the Riverlands.

Margaery would prefer young and beautiful Robb, over middle aged and plain looking Edmure. Also Winterfell is the biggest castle in 7K, while Riverrun is smaller than Highgarden (at least in the books, Winterfell is much bigger than Red Keep).

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

1. Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar or Jaime; Lysa wanted to marry with Petyr; doesn't matter what children wanted, they were married with whoever their parents see fitted. Bran is second son, so there's more chances for Rickon to live his life the way he wants. But Bran will have to stay in The North and be a spare, in case if something will happen with Ned's heir apparent. Also if he will go to KL, and become there a knight, eventually he will be disapointed with reality. One look at King Robert, or a few hours in Joffrey's company, and Bran will go back home.

2. Robb and Meera could be a good match, though I remembered one detail that makes this match nearly impossible - Ned never told his children about his friendship with Howland, or more like about his part in events at Tower of Joy, and death of Arthur Dayne. So it's unlikely that Ned will want his son to learn about it from his new relatives. Thus any marriages between Starks and Reeds are out of the question.

3. Theon is Stark's hostage, so it's unlikely that they will ever let him marry with daughter of some lord, and gain power. In best case they can allow him to marry with a peasant girl.

Margaery would prefer young and beautiful Robb, over middle aged and plain looking Edmure. Also Winterfell is the biggest castle in 7K, while Riverrun is smaller than Highgarden (at least in the books, Winterfell is much bigger than Red Keep).

Maybe Jeyne Poole for Theon? Also, what standing are the Reeds when it comes to Northern houses?

Edited by Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Margaery would prefer young and beautiful Robb, over middle aged and plain looking Edmure

Margaery was willing to marry anyone to become Queen. Looks and age made no difference to her or her family. She married Tommen who was a child. 

The Reach boarders the Riverlands so the Tyrells would actually get something out of a Tully marriage. Like access to easier trade routes and an ally that's close enough to help in case of an emergency.  Rather then sending Marge off to live out her days in Winterfell staring at trees and surrounded by snow.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Winterfell is the biggest castle in 7K, while Riverrun is smaller than Highgarden (at least in the books, Winterfell is much bigger than Red Keep).

 It's all about location, no Southern girl grows up dreaming about living in the dreary, freezing North or Winterfell. Especially a Lady like Margaery Tyrell. She can't wear the latest fashion from Essos when it's constantly freezing. The climate of the Riverlands is much closer to the Reach. Also the size of Castle's don't matter as much as their ambiance or else Harrenhal would be considered a higher prize then it was.

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4 hours ago, Megorova said:

3. Theon is Stark's hostage, so it's unlikely that they will ever let him marry with daughter of some lord, and gain power. In best case they can allow him to marry with a peasant girl.

 

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe Jeyne Poole for Theon? Also, what standing are the Reeds when it comes to Northern houses?

I strongly disagree, Theon is expected to become the Lord of the Iron Islands, why marry him to a peasant girl or the daughter of a household knight? If they accepted Theon, every lord on the Iron Islands would want him to marry their daughter (and a few mainland houses too if the Pipers and Serretts are anything to go by). By marrying Theon to the daughter of a northern lord, let’s say Sansa, the North gains influence over the Iron Islands, and it could potentially create a new era of positive Northmen-Ironborn relations. 

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

no Southern girl grows up dreaming about living in the dreary, freezing North or Winterfell. Especially a Lady like Margaery Tyrell. She can't wear the latest fashion from Essos when it's constantly freezing.

Though she can wear mink coat, white arctic fox coat, sable coat. In comparison with all northern girls, Margaery will be even more beautiful.

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Margaery was willing to marry anyone to become Queen. Looks and age made no difference to her or her family. She married Tommen who was a child. 

Eventually child-husband will grow up, and she will have to have sex with him, and give birth to his children. So eventually it will matter to Margaery with whom exactly did she married.

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

The Reach boarders the Riverlands so the Tyrells would actually get something out of a Tully marriage.

Look at who's Tully's descendants - Edmure who is 26-33 years old (precise year of birth is unknown), the only son of Hoster, but for some reason is still unmarried, even though he is well over marritable age. Lysa, who has only one child, and there's obviously something mentally and physically wrong with Robin. And Cat with her five healthy children. Guess who will eventually inherit Riverlands? To become Lady of The North, The Vale and Riverlands, the shortest way is to marry with Robb Stark. While by marrying with Edmure, she will get only Riverlands. And to rule over three kingdoms is better than one.

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe Jeyne Poole for Theon? Also, what standing are the Reeds when it comes to Northern houses?

32 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Theon is expected to become the Lord of the Iron Islands, why marry him to a peasant girl or the daughter of a household knight?

Theon is their hostage, so they wouldn't want to give him any power, by marrying him with someone important. If he will marry with some lord's daughter, they will have to let him go, to join household of that family, or go back to Iron Islands together with his wife. Because no lord will allow his daughter to be 'imprisoned' together with Theon at Winterfell. But if he will marry with a peasant girl, her parents will be glad for that kind of union. Because she will be living in a castle.

 

Reeds' house isn't significant. Their standing isn't high. Howland gained any significance only thanks to his friendship with Ned. And that friendship is the only reason why Ned may want to marry his children to Howlands children. Karstarks or Umbers are way above Reeds.

Edited by Megorova

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31 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Theon is their hostage, so they wouldn't want to give him any power, by marrying him with someone important. If he will marry with some lord's daughter, they will have to let him go, to join household of that family, or go back to Iron Islands together with his wife. Because no lord will allow his daughter to be 'imprisoned' together with Theon at Winterfell. But if he will marry with a peasant girl, her parents will be glad for that kind of union. Because she will be living in a castle.

They’re not keeping him forever; it is assumed that when Balon dies he will go and rule the Iron Islands. They’re keeping him to ensure Balon’s good behaviour while he lives. It’d be ridiculous to marry Theon to a peasant, he’s a future lord paramount. It’d be like the Lannisters marrying Sansa to the pig boy. 

 

33 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Reeds' house isn't significant. Their standing isn't high. Howland gained any significanse only thanks to his friendship with Ned. And that friendship is the only reason why Ned may want to marry his children to Howlands children. Karstarks or Umbers are way above Reeds.

The Reeds do have some standing as they rule over the Neck and have the other Crannogmen houses as their bannermen. The Starks don’t seem very snobby, they married the Flints of the Mountains so I don’t see why they wouldn’t marry a Reed.

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Maybe Jeyne Poole for Theon? Also, what standing are the Reeds when it comes to Northern houses?

I certainly agree that Jeyne Poole as a more realistic Theon marriage than a peasant! At least with Jeyne, she is a noble! That said, I think the idea always was to give Theon back to the Iron Islands one day. There was no way around that and so they need to ideally hook him up with a decent wife of preferably Northern stock.

The Reeds are a principal house of the North and control one of the largest and most strategic defence points of the North. The bond between Ned and Howland appears to have sparked a greater cooperation with them as well. In ASoS, Glover seemed worried the crannogmen might fail Robb by not sending guides to help him up the Neck, indicating they've not always been willing to help even Northern allies; Robb insists they will not because of the "worth of Howland Reed". So, had Ned lived, it might make sense that he and Howland could have wanted to assure this good relationship between the Lords of Winterfell and the gatekeepers of the North continued especially given the political climate where having complete control of the Neck is a matter of life and death for the North.
 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thus any marriages between Starks and Reeds are out of the question.

I don't foresee this being too much issue at all as I doubt Howland has told his kids the exact details of the Tower of Joy any more than Ned has. Heck, we the readers don't know what actually happened!
 

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Margaery was willing to marry anyone to become Queen. Looks and age made no difference to her or her family. She married Tommen who was a child. 

The Reach boarders the Riverlands so the Tyrells would actually get something out of a Tully marriage. Like access to easier trade routes and an ally that's close enough to help in case of an emergency.  Rather then sending Marge off to live out her days in Winterfell staring at trees and surrounded by snow.

Agreed. Mace seems pretty adamant that he wants Margaery to be Queen so I doubt he would marry her to anyone other than a likely candidate for the Iron Throne. If the Tyrells wished to cultivate a relationship with the North and the Starks, they probably would have sought Sansa or Arya for Willis, most likely Sansa. There is no way they would throw their prize flower - the only daughter - up North when they could pluck a blue rose for Highgarden. 

If this is a world where Margaery becoming queen is completely out of the question, she probably would have still married Renly (heir to Storm's End) or, as suggested, Edmure Tully is not unquestionable either.

52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

To become Lady of The North, The Vale and Riverlands, the shortest way is to marry with Robb Stark. While by marrying with Edmure, she will get only Riverlands. And to rule over three kingdoms is better than one.

That's a lot of ifs and buts. For one, Robb doesn't have a claim to the Vale at all nor is Edmure's being in his early to mid-twenties mean anything other than Hoster, a man notorious for wanting big, winning political matches for his children, was waiting for a very, very big fish for his son. So, it isn't exactly assured that Robb would get the Riverlands either. Mace Tyrell would want something a little less messy and assured for his only daughter.

55 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

If they accepted Theon, every lord on the Iron Islands would want him to marry their daughter (and a few mainland houses too if the Pipers and Serretts are anything to go by). By marrying Theon to the daughter of a northern lord, let’s say Sansa, the North gains influence over the Iron Islands, and it could potentially create a new era of positive Northmen-Ironborn relations

Agreed. While I still question whether Theon would have married Sansa, I definitely think that a prominent and loyal Northern house might have been selected for him. As I said above, the whole point of taking Theon was to keep Balon on his best behaviour and to raise Theon in a household then loyal to the crown. So, when Theon inevitably went back to the Iron Islands to take his seat with his Northern wife and Stark upbringing, he wouldn't start a new rebellion.

Edited by Faera

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19 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

They’re not keeping him forever; it is assumed that when Balon dies he will go and rule the Iron Islands. They’re keeping him to ensure Balon’s good behaviour while he lives. It’d be ridiculous to marry Theon to a peasant, he’s a future lord paramount. It’d be like the Lannisters marrying Sansa to the pig boy. 

Balon's age was between 38-44, when he was killed by his brother in 299. At that time Theon was 20 or 21 years old. So were Starks waiting for something to happen with Balon, for him to die because of some unnatural reason, or was Theon supposed to stay unmarried until Balon will die from old age? Because other people that died not in wars, lived well over middle age, Hoster Tully died aged 61-59, maester Aemon was 102 years old, etc. So would Theon have to wait another 20 years, untill he will be able to marry? Most likely, if he will be given permission from Starks to marry, while he is still their hostage, then he will prefer to marry now, with some insignificat peasant girl, and not to wait another 20 years, for his father's death, to be able to marry with some lord's daughter.

Edited by Megorova

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23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Edmure who is 26-33 years old (precise year of birth is unknown), the only son of Hoster, but for some reason is still unmarried, even though he is well over marritable age.

You can say the same about many other Highborn Lords and Ladies. For instance Willas Tyrell, Robb Stark, Renly Baratheon, Arianne Martell, and even Tyrion Lannister (technically/arguably) and Asha Greyjoy(technically//arguably), All heirs to Kingdoms, all of marrying age, but unmarried at the start of the series. So Edmure is far from alone in that category.

30 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Guess who will eventually inherit Riverlands? To become Lady of The North, The Vale and Riverlands, the shortest way is to marry with Robb Stark. While by marrying with Edmure, she will get only Riverlands. And to rule over three kingdoms is better than one.

First off, none of Eddard Stark's children have any claim to the Vale. Second how could Robb be both Lord of Winterfell and Lord of Riverrun? If Edmure died without issue the title would most likely pass to Cat's second son Bran Stark. Never before since Westeros became one united realm has one man become a Lord of two different Kingsdoms. If he did he'd become a direct threat to the King of Westeros. I have no idea where your getting the Vale from as well. 

43 minutes ago, Megorova said:

. In comparison with all northern girls, Margaery will be even more beautiful.

But very bored. I image her situation would be similar to Jorah's Hightower wife.  No singers, tourneys and exotic foods even in Winterfell. Or else I image Jorah would have brought his wife there as often as possible. 

49 minutes ago, Megorova said:

and she will have to have sex with him, and give birth to his children. So eventually it will matter to Margaery with whom exactly did she married.

Well it didn't seem to matter to her that her first husband Renly was not interested in women. Only that he was a King.

52 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Eventually child-husband will grow up

Yes and when he does he will be King of Westeros. Which was the reason she and her family agreed to the marriage.

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17 minutes ago, Faera said:

That's a lot of ifs and buts. For one, Robb doesn't have a claim to the Vale at all nor is Edmure's being in his early to mid-twenties mean anything other than Hoster, a man notorious for wanting big, winning political matches for his children, was waiting for a very, very big fish for his son. So, it isn't exactly assured that Robb would get the Riverlands either. Mace Tyrell would want something a little less messy and assured for his only daughter.

My point exactly. I would have quoted this instead in my reply above if I had saw it first. So it seems were in full agreement here.

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34 minutes ago, Faera said:

I definitely think that a prominent and loyal Northern house might have been selected for him.

Marrying Theon with some significant northerner, is the same as putting Trojan (Iron) horse amids their people. It would be really unwise to give to ironborn any leverage over The North.

Quote

So, when Theon inevitably went back to the Iron Islands to take his seat with his Northern wife and Stark upbringing, he wouldn't start a new rebellion.

Starks upbringing didn't stopped Theon from betraying Robb, and killing people loyal to Starks, and seizing Winterfell. And at that time he was still a nobody. Imagine where his ambitions and desire to prove to ironborn that he's one of them, and not Starks' lap dog, will lead him, when he will become a Lord.

Edited by Megorova

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1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

You can say the same about many other Highborn Lords and Ladies. For instance Willas Tyrell, Robb Stark, Renly Baratheon, Arianne Martell, and even Tyrion Lannister (technically/arguably) and Asha Greyjoy(technically//arguably), All heirs to Kingdoms, all of marrying age, but unmarried at the start of the series. So Edmure is far from alone in that category.

Are you serious?

Edmure is over 25, or even over 30 years old. And he's the only son <- which makes it even more important to marry him as soon as possible, to assure that Tully's heritage will continue. Lysa became Arryn, Cat became Stark. If Edmure will die without heir, then Tullys family will become extinct.

Willas Tyrell is 24-30 years old, he is older son and the heir to Highgarden, but he is crippled with a bad leg <- that's the reason why noble lords are not standing in line to marry their daughters to him. And Mace Tyrell has two more sons - Garlan and Loras.

Robb Stark was only 16, furthermore Ned had two more sons and two daughters, so there was no danger, that Starks family will die out.

Renly was 22, but he didn't marry sooner because he was gay, and he wasn't interested in continuing Baratheon's heritage. If Robert didn't died without legitimate heirs, it's likely that Renly would have never married.

Arianne is 23, but she's a female, so it's not her job to continue Martells progeny. On the contrary, the longer she will stay unmarried, the more Martells there will be. Also she had two brothers that were supposed to continue Martells family.

Tyrion is a dwarf, same as with Willas, lords doesn't stand in line, to marry their daughters with someone like that.

Asha doesn't want to get married. Daughter, and not a single child. Also if she will marry, thru her Greyjoy's line won't continue, she will become Lady of her husband's house.

Majority of Highborn Lords and Ladies want to assure continuity of their family line, as soon as possible, and marry their children. For example Cat was engaged to Brandon when she was only 12 years old.

Quote

First off, none of Eddard Stark's children have any claim to the Vale. Second how could Robb be both Lord of Winterfell and Lord of Riverrun? If Edmure died without issue the title would most likely pass to Cat's second son Bran Stark. Never before since Westeros became one united realm has one man become a Lord of two different Kingsdoms. If he did he'd become a direct threat to the King of Westeros. I have no idea where your getting the Vale from as well. 

If Edmure will never marry, and die without heirs, then Riverlands will pass to one of his sisters' families, either to Robb, or to Robin. Most likely Robin will die young, either from illness, or in a battle, because he is weak. Jon Arryn had no other possible heirs, aside from his son. So when his wife and son will die, The Vale will pass to closest relative, and that is Cat and her children.

There's no law that prevent certain lord to be holder of several titles. For example Robb was - 1. Lord of Winterfell, 2. King in The North, 3. King of the Trident.

And Petyr Baelish was Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of The Vale.

P.S. Edmure did married, but at that time he was already 26-33 years old, and his wedding happened because of unusual circumstances. But we're not talking about who married with whom in Song, we're talking what kind of marriages could have happened, in alternative version of Song. The point is - Edmure was way over marritable age, but he still was single, and it didn't looked like he was in any hurry to say goodbye to his bachelor status.

Edited by Megorova

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Willas Tyrell is 24-30 years old, he is older son and the heir to Highgarden, but he is crippled with a bad leg <- that's the reason why noble lords are not standing in line to marry their daughters to him. And Mace Tyrell has two more sons - Garlan and Loras.

Where in the books does it say that no Noble Lords want to marry their daughters to Willas Tyrell because of his bad leg? Bad leg or not he is the heir to Highgarden and Lord Paramount of the Reach and his son will be heir after that. Any Lords would be more then willing to marry their daughters to him so their grandson can become the Warden of the South. Just like Mace wants to marry his daughter to the King of Westeros so his grandson will be King. Tywin wanted to marry Cersei to Willas Tyrell but the Tyrells turned him down. Arianne Martell tried to sneak off and marry him. All despite his bad leg. Willas can still command and plan in battle and produce children. He's not some bedridden troll outcast that no one wants to marry like you make him out to be.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Robert didn't died without legitimate heirs, it's likely that Renly would have never married.

Again where are you getting this information? We never get that impression from Renly anymore then we get it from Willas or Edmure. Gay Westerosi men marry all the time to secure their House. Renly married Margaery to help press his claim to become King without ever acknowledging Stannis' claims that Cersei's children were bastards. He wanted the Crown because he thought he was best suited for it and would be a better King then Joff, Tommen or Stannis. Renly never had any proof that Cersei's kids were not Robert's and never sent out ravens claiming they weren't like Stannis.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Arianne is 23, but she's a female, so it's not her job to continue Martells progeny.

Yes it is. She is the heir to Dorne and it's her duty to marry so her first born will become the heir after her. She's expected to do the same as if she were a man in any other Kingdom. Saying its not her job to do so would be like saying it's not Robb Stark's job to marry and have sons because he has younger brothers. 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

progeny. On the contrary, the longer she will stay unmarried, the more Martells there will be.

Huh? How is that possible? This is one of the strangest claims I have ever heard. 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Tyrion is a dwarf, same as with Willas, lords doesn't stand in line, to marry their daughters with someone like that.

They will if he becomes the Lord of Casterly Rock and richest man in Westeros. It all depends on whether or not he will become Lord of Casterly Rock. That's why I put a (technically) by his name. Most Westerosi Lords could care less what their daughter's husband looks like if he's rich and powerful.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also if she will marry, thru her Greyjoy's line won't continue, she will become Lady of her husband's house.

Nope, if Balon Grejoy named Asha his heir then her children would take the Greyjoy name. Just like Doran and Oberyn Martell took their mother's last name, who was the ruling Princess of Dorne. 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Majority of Highborn Lords and Ladies want to assure continuity of their family line, as soon as possible, and marry their children. For example Cat was engaged to Brandon when she was only 12 years old.

Oh so you agree that Robb at 15 was old enough to marry? Yet he's not even betrothed at the start of the series. Eddard went to King's Landing without even considering who he should marry his heir too, so it's likely Robb would have been another Lord in his 20's before he was married like Edmure and Willas. 

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Edmure will never marry, and die without heirs, then Riverlands will pass to one of his sisters' families, either to Robb, or to Robin

Nope. It would pass to Bran Stark and then to Rickon Stark if Bran was not able. Only if Bran and Rickon were both unable to take the title would it go to the second Tully daughter's children.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon Arryn had no other possible heirs, aside from his son. So when his wife and son will die, The Vale will pass to closest relative, and that is Cat and her children.

Are you serious?  Catelyn Stark nee' Tully has no connection to Jon Arryn. Not through blood or marriage. Neither does any Tully aside from Lysa Arryn nee' Tully. That's why Harrold Hardying has always been Robert's Arryn's heir,  not any of the Starks. His nickname Harry the heir should be a dead giveaway.

From Harrold Hardying's asoiaf wiki, I suggest you read this, Harry the heir, to better understand how inheritance in the Vale works.

 Robert became Lord of the Eyrie on Jon Arryn's death in 298 AC, and Harrold is his heir. Robert dislikes Harrold and is resentful of his status, and believes Harrold is just waiting for Robert to die so that he can take the Eyrie.

Saying Robb or any of Catelyn and Eddard's kids have a claim to the Vale would be like saying Edmure would have a claim to Winterfell if all the Starks died. It simply makes zero sense.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

For example Robb was - 1. Lord of Winterfell, 2. King in The North, 3. King of the Trident.

Yes, he was named King of the North and King of the Trident but not Lord of Winterfell and Lord of Riverrun. And he was most definitely not acknowledged or recognized as Lord or King of the North and Riverlands by the King of the Iron Throne. Not by Joffrey or Stannis.

No man has ever been Lord of two Kingdoms and two Castle's. It's simply not done. Robert Baratheon didn't keep his title as Lord of Storm's End when he became King. It passed down to his brother. Even the Targaryen Princes of Dragonstone passed that title and Castle to their heir once they became King.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Petyr Baelish was Lord Paramount of the Trident and Lord Protector of The Vale.

"Lord Protector of the Vale" was a name and title that Baelish and Lysa made up. As soon as the Vale Lords heard of this they immediately protested it and formed the Lords Declarant to take away that made up title. They give him a year to give up Robert Arryn and the title. Even Baelish knows this title won't last for long as he plans to kill Robert Arryn and therefore make Harrold Hardying the new the Lord of the Vale. 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Edmure was way over marritable age, but he still was single, and it didn't looked like he was in any hurry to say goodbye to his bachelor status.

Which did not mean he was never going to marry. I'm sure he had plenty of offers. By the time the series starts his father is very sick so it's understandable he's not planning a wedding just then. Also you said before that Edmure was "plain faced," nothing I've been able to find suggests that is true. He has the classic Tully features and probably looks a good deal like Robb but a little older.

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Balon's age was between 38-44, when he was killed by his brother in 299. At that time Theon was 20 or 21 years old. So were Starks waiting for something to happen with Balon, for him to die because of some unnatural reason, or was Theon supposed to stay unmarried until Balon will die from old age? Because other people that died not in wars, lived well over middle age, Hoster Tully died aged 61-59, maester Aemon was 102 years old, etc. So would Theon have to wait another 20 years, untill he will be able to marry? Most likely, if he will be given permission from Starks to marry, while he is still their hostage, then he will prefer to marry now, with some insignificat peasant girl, and not to wait another 20 years, for his father's death, to be able to marry with some lord's daughter.

We as readers don’t know the full plan for Theon. He should’ve been betrothed at his current age, but many of the lords paramount / heirs at the beginning of the novel aren’t betrothed. It could be a mixture of author convenience and plots not yet revealed, such as with Arianne Martell. If the plan was to marry Theon to Sansa Ned may have been waiting for her to flower. What I’m certain of is that Theon was definitely not going to marry a peasant or even a minor noble like Jeyne Poole. The marriage would be completely morganatic, which in our world were barely looked upon as legal. The second he returned to the Iron Islands she’d be disregarded as a saltwife, he’d be wed to a Botley or a Saltcliffe, and the North would’ve missed a great opportunity to gain influence over and foster good relations with the Iron Islands. Even if you think that the North wouldn’t give him the ‘leverage’ by marrying him to a highborn Northerner, then they’d just let him marry an Ironborn lady. Marrying him to a peasant is pointless and would come across as a petty and spiteful jab at the Iron Islands. 

 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Edmure is over 25, or even over 30 years old. And he's the only son <- which makes it even more important to marry him as soon as possible, to assure that Tully's heritage will continue. Lysa became Arryn, Cat became Stark. If Edmure will die without heir, then Tullys family will become extinct.

Willas Tyrell is 24-30 years old, he is older son and the heir to Highgarden, but he is crippled with a bad leg <- that's the reason why noble lords are not standing in line to marry their daughters to him. And Mace Tyrell has two more sons - Garlan and Loras.

Robb Stark was only 16, furthermore Ned had two more sons and two daughters, so there was no danger, that Starks family will die out.

Renly was 22, but he didn't marry sooner because he was gay, and he wasn't interested in continuing Baratheon's heritage. If Robert didn't died without legitimate heirs, it's likely that Renly would have never married.

Arianne is 23, but she's a female, so it's not her job to continue Martells progeny. On the contrary, the longer she will stay unmarried, the more Martells there will be. Also she had two brothers that were supposed to continue Martells family.

Tyrion is a dwarf, same as with Willas, lords doesn't stand in line, to marry their daughters with someone like that.

Asha doesn't want to get married. Daughter, and not a single child. Also if she will marry, thru her Greyjoy's line won't continue, she will become Lady of her husband's house.

Westerosi houses do not go extinct for lack of male heirs. We see this with Joffrey Lydden taking the Lannister name, the Stark son of Bael the Bard, Maege Mormont’s Mormont daughters, Harry Hardyng who would rule as an Arryn, Beren Tallhart who would rule as a Hornwood, and, although we don’t know their husbands, there’s a good chance Anya Waynwood and Arwyn Oakheart gave their surnames to their children. 

And it is completely Arianne Martell’s job to continue the Martell line - the oldest child of a Dornish lord/lady is the heir regardless of gender and their children take their surname. It has been that way for a thousand years. She even says herself in AFFC, “I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne.” 

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon Arryn had no other possible heirs, aside from his son

Harry the Heir cough cough.

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's no law that prevent certain lord to be holder of several titles. For example Robb was - 1. Lord of Winterfell, 2. King in The North, 3. King of the Trident.

You are correct, but by tradition lords gift their extra castles to younger sons and brothers. 

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5 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Where in the books does it say that no Noble Lords want to marry their daughters to Willas Tyrell because of his bad leg? Bad leg or not he is the heir to Highgarden and Lord Paramount of the Reach and his son will be heir after that. Any Lords would be more then willing to marry their daughters to him so their grandson can become the Warden of the South. Just like Mace wants to marry his daughter to the King of Westeros so his grandson will be King. Tywin wanted to marry Cersei to Willas Tyrell but the Tyrells turned him down. Arianne Martell tried to sneak off and marry him. All despite his bad leg. Willas can still command and plan in battle and produce children. He's not some bedridden troll outcast that no one wants to marry like you make him out to be.

Again where are you getting this information? We never get that impression from Renly anymore then we get it from Willas or Edmure. Gay Westerosi men marry all the time to secure their House. Renly married Margaery to help press his claim to become King without ever acknowledging Stannis' claims that Cersei's children were bastards. He wanted the Crown because he thought he was best suited for it and would be a better King then Joff, Tommen or Stannis. Renly never had any proof that Cersei's kids were not Robert's and never sent out ravens claiming they weren't like Stannis.

Yes it is. She is the heir to Dorne and it's her duty to marry so her first born will become the heir after her. She's expected to do the same as if she were a man in any other Kingdom. Saying its not her job to do so would be like saying it's not Robb Stark's job to marry and have sons because he has younger brothers. 

Huh? How is that possible? This is one of the strangest claims I have ever heard. 

They will if he becomes the Lord of Casterly Rock and richest man in Westeros. It all depends on whether or not he will become Lord of Casterly Rock. That's why I put a (technically) by his name. Most Westerosi Lords could care less what their daughter's husband looks like if he's rich and powerful.

Nope, if Balon Grejoy named Asha his heir then her children would take the Greyjoy name. Just like Doran and Oberyn Martell took their mother's last name, who was the ruling Princess of Dorne. 

Oh so you agree that Robb at 15 was old enough to marry? Yet he's not even betrothed at the start of the series. Eddard went to King's Landing without even considering who he should marry his heir too, so it's likely Robb would have been another Lord in his 20's before he was married like Edmure and Willas. 

Nope. It would pass to Bran Stark and then to Rickon Stark if Bran was not able. Only if Bran and Rickon were both unable to take the title would it go to the second Tully daughter's children.

Are you serious?  Catelyn Stark nee' Tully has no connection to Jon Arryn. Not through blood or marriage. Neither does any Tully aside from Lysa Arryn nee' Tully. That's why Harrold Hardying has always been Robert's Arryn's heir,  not any of the Starks. His nickname Harry the heir should be a dead giveaway.

From Harrold Hardying's asoiaf wiki, I suggest you read this, Harry the heir, to better understand how inheritance in the Vale works.

 Robert became Lord of the Eyrie on Jon Arryn's death in 298 AC, and Harrold is his heir. Robert dislikes Harrold and is resentful of his status, and believes Harrold is just waiting for Robert to die so that he can take the Eyrie.

Saying Robb or any of Catelyn and Eddard's kids have a claim to the Vale would be like saying Edmure would have a claim to Winterfell if all the Starks died. It simply makes zero sense.

Yes, he was named King of the North and King of the Trident but not Lord of Winterfell and Lord of Riverrun. And he was most definitely not acknowledged or recognized as Lord or King of the North and Riverlands by the King of the Iron Throne. Not by Joffrey or Stannis.

No man has ever been Lord of two Kingdoms and two Castle's. It's simply not done. Robert Baratheon didn't keep his title as Lord of Storm's End when he became King. It passed down to his brother. Even the Targaryen Princes of Dragonstone passed that title and Castle to their heir once they became King.

"Lord Protector of the Vale" was a name and title that Baelish and Lysa made up. As soon as the Vale Lords heard of this they immediately protested it and formed the Lords Declarant to take away that made up title. They give him a year to give up Robert Arryn and the title. Even Baelish knows this title won't last for long as he plans to kill Robert Arryn and therefore make Harrold Hardying the new the Lord of the Vale. 

Which did not mean he was never going to marry. I'm sure he had plenty of offers. By the time the series starts his father is very sick so it's understandable he's not planning a wedding just then. Also you said before that Edmure was "plain faced," nothing I've been able to find suggests that is true. He has the classic Tully features and probably looks a good deal like Robb but a little older.

Thank you so much for this, i was about to mention all this when i found your post :)

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13 hours ago, Megorova said:

Marrying Theon with some significant northerner, is the same as putting Trojan (Iron) horse amids their people. It would be really unwise to give to ironborn any leverage over The North.

Quote

Marry Theon to the daughter of a loyal Northern house and you would have taken a step to cultivating good relations between the North and the Iron Islands. It would give him solid ties to the North, future children raised in the Northern way and an incentive to continue good relations with the North. Disregarding Theon completely or insulting him by marrying him to a peasant would do the North no favours whatsoever. If she's a nobody, who's going to care if she's put aside? Theon will never be "a nobody" even if the Ironborn couldn't tell that this twenty-year-old man is the same ten-year-old boy taken away after the Greyjoy Rebellion. He is still a Lord's son and heir apparent as far as the laws of the Seven Kingdoms are concerned. Better to find him a wife of the Starks choosing than allowing him to go home and marry one of the daughters of Balon's biggest supporters. Even if Ned did try and find Theon a wife somewhere other than the North, even if he was content for him to take an Ironborn wife, there are plenty of houses there who would be very glad to see the back of Balon's "iron price" and make their livelihood through trade, farming, fishing and participation with the Seven Kingdoms. There is more to gain by fostering positive relations with the Iron Islands by marrying Theon into a Northern house than you may think.

Moreover, a lot of Theon's betrayal was out of his own stupidity and Robb's stupidity in chucking him into the deepened with Balon, alone. He should have known Theon's ego would have got the better of him. Theon was leverage over Balon -- by sending him back to Balon, there nothing stopping him from attacking the North. The North would have been attacked whether Theon participated or not. 

In anyway case, we are still in our magical world where these marriage plans are allowed to happen. In this scenario, we can presume that Eddard would have continued to keep Theon close and well-kept. If he had genuinely intended to marry him to Sansa, if Robert still wanted her for Joffrey, there was still Arya and if not Arya then he could select a daughter of a family close to the Starks. If there is one thing that we learn from Theon's POV, it's that he genuinely wanted to be a Stark.

 

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

The second he returned to the Iron Islands she’d be disregarded as a saltwife, he’d be wed to a Botley or a Saltcliffe, and the North would’ve missed a great opportunity to gain influence over and foster good relations with the Iron Islands. Even if you think that the North wouldn’t give him the ‘leverage’ by marrying him to a highborn Northerner, then they’d just let him marry an Ironborn lady. Marrying him to a peasant is pointless and would come across as a petty and spiteful jab at the Iron Islands

1

:agree:

Absolutely. If anything, setting up Theon with a Northern wife from a loyal family of House Stark at Winterfell or, hell, even a tiny holdfast nearby where he can be kept close would be a lot more beneficial in the long run than treating him as if he isn't one of the most crucial pieces on the chess board in Westerosi politics.

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

The point is - Edmure was way over marritable age, but he still was single, and it didn't looked like he was in any hurry to say goodbye to his bachelor status.

Again, this is much more likely because Hoster Tully wanted someone really, really good for Edmure. This notion that he was never going to get married or have children is coming out of nowhere!

 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Willas Tyrell is 24-30 years old, he is older son and the heir to Highgarden, but he is crippled with a bad leg <- that's the reason why noble lords are not standing in line to marry their daughters to him. And Mace Tyrell has two more sons - Garlan and Loras.

1

You are correct that as a cripple he likely suffers a lot of prejudice, as Bran feels he does when it comes to some of the Northern lords (especially the Karstarks who think him to craven to just kill himself). That doesn't mean cripples don't get marriage offers when they are powerful. Besides, how do we know people haven't propositioned their daughters for Willas? We simply don't know. All we do know is that they were keen on securing Sansa for him and when Tywin offered them Cersei, they refused. I'm willing to bet there have been offers - it's just that Mace hasn't got one he likes yet.

Willas is still heir to Highgarden despite the permanent injury to his leg. Heck, Bran has lost the use of both his legs but as heir presumptive of Winterfell and King in the North, should he return he would get plenty betrothal offers from the Northern lords loyal to House Stark because of his name and birthright alone. The fact that the Tyrells hoped to whisk Sansa away from King's Landing to marry him shows that they are actively looking for a suitable wife for him. Moreover, is the head of the new cadet branch of Tyrells at Brightwater Keep, so they clearly intend for Willas to eventually marry and have children to inherit Highgarden. The thing is that Mace Tyrell, much like Hoster Tully, very likely wants someone especially politically advantageous for his firstborn and heir, again, like Sansa.

6 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Yes it is. She is the heir to Dorne and it's her duty to marry so her first born will become the heir after her. She's expected to do the same as if she were a man in any other Kingdom. Saying its not her job to do so would be like saying it's not Robb Stark's job to marry and have sons because he has younger brothers. 

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, Arianne is very much in the same boat as the likes of Willas and Edmure in that they are high enough that picking their spouse is a delicate procedure; it needs to affirm a strong connection with one of their bannermen or big, bombastic political alliance. Arianne's lack of open betrothal even at twenty-three isn't helped by the fact that Doran wanted her to marry Viserys in the Targaryen restoration he's been dreaming of for so long. Again, he spurned offers because he already had Viserys in mind, much like how Tywin spurred the match Joanna wanted between Oberyn and Cersei after she died -- because he still thought he could hold out for Rhaegar. Now, if Aegon proves a serious contender for the Iron Throne, Doran might try to match Arianne with him.

12 hours ago, Megorova said:

There's no law that prevent certain lord to be holder of several titles. For example Robb was - 1. Lord of Winterfell, 2. King in The North, 3. King of the Trident.

3

Titles and the right to holdfasts, castles and possession of land and incomes aren't the same things. Robb is extremely unlikely to have ever owned Riverrun in his own right because there is no reason to believe Edmure wouldn't have eventually married and had children of his own. Even if he did, it is much more likely that Bran or Rickon would have been proposed as the new lords -- and even that wasn't a guarantee. The Riverlanders might have been more willing to back a Riverlander with a slightly weaker claim but ties to the land. Even then, being Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands are not mutually exclusive. Even if Bran or Rickon took Riverrun because there was literally no one else, the Crown would likely have felt obligated to name another Lord Paramount of the Riverlands from among the Riverlanders. 

2 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:
12 hours ago, Megorova said:

Jon Arryn had no other possible heirs, aside from his son

Harry the Heir cough cough

Indeed, hence why Littlefinger wants Sansa to marry him; so she can be in with a chance to be Lady of the Eyrie when Harry becomes Harold Arryn, Lord Paramount of the Vale of Arryn. As I and many others said before, Robb and the Starks have no claim on the Eyrie or the Vale whatsoever. In fact, there are some random daughters of House Royce with a better claim on Winterfell than Robb or his siblings have on the Eyrie!

 

Edited by Faera

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

You are correct that as a cripple he likely suffers a lot of prejudice, as Bran feels he does when it comes to some of the Northern lords (especially the Karstarks who think him to craven to just kill himself). That doesn't mean cripples don't get marriage offers when they are powerful.

Do you remeber how Martell's lady wanted to marry Elia to Lannister? Jaime Lannister was an OK match, but when Tywin offered them Tyrion, they were utterly offended. And why? - he was also Lannister, same as Jaime. So what's the problem? Same family, same level of power. But as you can see - everything isn't that easy, health and other parameters do matter.

4 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Harry the Heir cough cough.

If Robin, who is their Lord will die, then most likely Harry will too. If there will be a battle, and enemies will get to Robin, to do that, first they will have to go thru line of his defenders, among which Harry will be too.

But all this marriage game is just a speculation "what if".

So if there will be no heir in The Vale, then it will pass to Starks, because Cat is Robin's aunt, and her children are his cousins, which is closer than whatever distant relative of Jon Arryn is available in The Vale.

4 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

You are correct, but by tradition lords gift their extra castles to younger sons and brothers. 

Not unless there's no brothers/sons. Supposedly Stark boys were killed, while Robb was in Riverlands. So he kept all titles.

2 hours ago, Faera said:

If there is one thing that we learn from Theon's POV, it's that he genuinely wanted to be a Stark.

Yes, but what he wanted is to be accepted by their family (same as Jon), not to marry with one of their girls.

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