Corvo the Crow

The Marriage Game

63 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Faera said:

Marry Theon to the daughter of a loyal Northern house and you would have taken a step to cultivating good relations between the North and the Iron Islands. It would give him solid ties to the North, future children raised in the Northern way and an incentive to continue good relations with the North. Disregarding Theon completely or insulting him by marrying him to a peasant would do the North no favours whatsoever. If she's a nobody, who's going to care if she's put aside? Theon will never be "a nobody" even if the Ironborn couldn't tell that this twenty-year-old man is the same ten-year-old boy taken away after the Greyjoy Rebellion. He is still a Lord's son and heir apparent as far as the laws of the Seven Kingdoms are concerned. Better to find him a wife of the Starks choosing than allowing him to go home and marry one of the daughters of Balon's biggest supporters. Even if Ned did try and find Theon a wife somewhere other than the North, even if he was content for him to take an Ironborn wife, there are plenty of houses there who would be very glad to see the back of Balon's "iron price" and make their livelihood through trade, farming, fishing and participation with the Seven Kingdoms. There is more to gain by fostering positive relations with the Iron Islands by marrying Theon into a Northern house than you may think.

Moreover, a lot of Theon's betrayal was out of his own stupidity and Robb's stupidity in chucking him into the deepened with Balon, alone. He should have known Theon's ego would have got the better of him. Theon was leverage over Balon -- by sending him back to Balon, there nothing stopping him from attacking the North. The North would have been attacked whether Theon participated or not. 

In anyway case, we are still in our magical world where these marriage plans are allowed to happen. In this scenario, we can presume that Eddard would have continued to keep Theon close and well-kept. If he had genuinely intended to marry him to Sansa, if Robert still wanted her for Joffrey, there was still Arya and if not Arya then he could select a daughter of a family close to the Starks. If there is one thing that we learn from Theon's POV, it's that he genuinely wanted to be a Stark.

 

:agree:

Absolutely. If anything, setting up Theon with a Northern wife from a loyal family of House Stark at Winterfell or, hell, even a tiny holdfast nearby where he can be kept close would be a lot more beneficial in the long run than treating him as if he isn't one of the most crucial pieces on the chess board in Westerosi politics.

 

Again, this is much more likely because Hoster Tully wanted someone really, really good for Edmure. This notion that he was never going to get married or have children is coming out of nowhere!

 

You are correct that as a cripple he likely suffers a lot of prejudice, as Bran feels he does when it comes to some of the Northern lords (especially the Karstarks who think him to craven to just kill himself). That doesn't mean cripples don't get marriage offers when they are powerful. Besides, how do we know people haven't propositioned their daughters for Willas? We simply don't know. All we do know is that they were keen on securing Sansa for him and when Tywin offered them Cersei, they refused. I'm willing to bet there have been offers - it's just that Mace hasn't got one he likes yet.

Willas is still heir to Highgarden despite the permanent injury to his leg. Heck, Bran has lost the use of both his legs but as heir presumptive of Winterfell and King in the North, should he return he would get plenty betrothal offers from the Northern lords loyal to House Stark because of his name and birthright alone. The fact that the Tyrells hoped to whisk Sansa away from King's Landing to marry him shows that they are actively looking for a suitable wife for him. Moreover, is the head of the new cadet branch of Tyrells at Brightwater Keep, so they clearly intend for Willas to eventually marry and have children to inherit Highgarden. The thing is that Mace Tyrell, much like Hoster Tully, very likely wants someone especially politically advantageous for his firstborn and heir, again, like Sansa.

Yes, Arianne is very much in the same boat as the likes of Willas and Edmure in that they are high enough that picking their spouse is a delicate procedure; it needs to affirm a strong connection with one of their bannermen or big, bombastic political alliance. Arianne's lack of open betrothal even at twenty-three isn't helped by the fact that Doran wanted her to marry Viserys in the Targaryen restoration he's been dreaming of for so long. Again, he spurned offers because he already had Viserys in mind, much like how Tywin spurred the match Joanna wanted between Oberyn and Cersei after she died -- because he still thought he could hold out for Rhaegar. Now, if Aegon proves a serious contender for the Iron Throne, Doran might try to match Arianne with him.

Titles and the right to holdfasts, castles and possession of land and incomes aren't the same things. Robb is extremely unlikely to have ever owned Riverrun in his own right because there is no reason to believe Edmure wouldn't have eventually married and had children of his own. Even if he did, it is much more likely that Bran or Rickon would have been proposed as the new lords -- and even that wasn't a guarantee. The Riverlanders might have been more willing to back a Riverlander with a slightly weaker claim but ties to the land. Even then, being Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands are not mutually exclusive. Even if Bran or Rickon took Riverrun because there was literally no one else, the Crown would likely have felt obligated to name another Lord Paramount of the Riverlands from among the Riverlanders. 

Indeed, hence why Littlefinger wants Sansa to marry him; so she can be in with a chance to be Lady of the Eyrie when Harry becomes Harold Arryn, Lord Paramount of the Vale of Arryn. As I and many others said before, Robb and the Starks have no claim on the Eyrie or the Vale whatsoever. In fact, there are some random daughters of House Royce with a better claim on Winterfell than Robb or his siblings have on the Eyrie!

 

So who qualifies as "really good" for Edmure? 

I think Doran was a fool to arrange a match between Arianne and Viserys, considering that Viserys... isn't all there. 

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Do you remeber how Martell's lady wanted to marry Elia to Lannister? Jaime Lannister was an OK match, but when Tywin offered them Tyrion, they were utterly offended. And why? - he was also Lannister, same as Jaime. So what's the problem? Same family, same level of power. But as you can see - everything isn't that easy, health and other parameters do matter.

8 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

No need to be coy -- being a dwarf certainly made people recoil. He was also unfortunately born a very small and ugly man.

However, you are incorrect in saying that it "same as Jaime" and "same level of power" because Jaime was the firstborn son and heir to the Rock, Tyrion was not. Besides, Tywin offering his newborn son to the Princess of Dorne as a husband for her teenage daughter was clearly meant to be an insult - being a dwarf was the icing on the cake.

Yes, health parameters do matter but aside from having a permanent injury to his leg, really there isn't anything physically wrong with Willas at all that we know of. 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Robin, who is their Lord will die, then most likely Harry will too. If there will be a battle, and enemies will get to Robin, to do that, first they will have to go thru line of his defenders, among which Harry will be too.

1

Why "most likely" Harry will die? What is this mysterious battle that will randomly kill Robert "Sweetrobin"? What's he even doing in the middle of a battle? Do you think the Eyrie will be stormed by the Lannisters or something?

Sweetrobin is expected to die because he suffers from frequent and violent fits of his shaking sickness (and LF is also trying to OD him with sweet sleep) -- Harry is perfectly healthy. The moment he becomes Lord is the moment they would likely work at getting him married and reproducing, and keeping him away from any frontlines.

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So if there will be no heir in The Vale, then it will pass to Starks, because Cat is Robin's aunt, and her children are his cousins, which is closer than whatever distant relative of Jon Arryn is available in The Vale.

 

That's not how succession works.

It doesn't matter if Cat was Sweetrobin's aunt and the Starks are his first cousins, they are relatives from the wrong side of the family. It needs to be someone from the line of Arryn to make a proper claim. The Vale Lords will simply go back down the line and I guarantee they would find someone among them who married into the family at some point who has the best claim. They are not going to want their late liege lord's wife's sister's children taking the Eyrie from a Vale lord who can boast Arryn blood and actually lives in the Vale.

Even if you somehow managed to find an Arryn somewhere in the Stark or Tully bloodlines that would allow the Starks to make a claim, it is no guarantee they would be chosen and they definitely would not inherit the title of Defender of the Vale. The Vale of Arryn and the Eyrie are not mutually exclusive. Odds are on, another Lord of the Vale would get the title of Defender of the Vale and possibly Warden of the East. (See, the title of "Warden of the East" is a small point in the books if you actually look back. In AGoT, because Sweetrobin is still a minor, Robert names Jaime Lannister as "Warden of the East"; it angers the Vale Lords so much that they refuse to accept it and they continue to name Sweetrobin the "True Warden". It isn't until ASoS that crown finally relents and they give the title back to Sweetrobin.)

Getting the Eyrie (as in the castle of which one can be 'Lord of the Eyrie') is not a package deal with being Defender (Ruler) of the Vale and/or Warden of the East. Three completely different people could feasably hold all of these titles;

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Yes, but what he wanted is to be accepted by their family (same as Jon), not to marry with one of their girls.

Marrying one of Eddard's daughters would have been part of the acceptance, just like Jon also fantasised that Eddard would legitimise him.

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"That would spoil our celebration, my lord. Reek, I have glad tidings for you. I am to be wed. My lord father is bringing me a Stark girl. Lord Eddard's daughter, Arya. You remember little Arya, don't you?"
Arya Underfoot, he almost said. Arya Horseface. Robb's younger sister, brown-haired, long-faced, skinny as a stick, always dirty. Sansa was the pretty one. He remembered a time when he had thought that Lord Eddard Stark might marry him to Sansa and claim him for a son, but that had only been a child's fancy. Arya, though … "I remember her. Arya."
Reek I, ADwD

 

Even if it was wishful thinking on Theon's part, he wanted to be a Stark and being taken as a son-in-law would have been his idea of an ultimate acceptance.

Edited by Faera

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

So who qualifies as "really good" for Edmure? 

 

Hoster Tully wanted advantageous marriages for his children.

So, he would have likely wanted a daughter from a Great House or a prolific family that would benefit his house and the Riverlands. He married Catelyn to a Stark (The North) and Lysa was supposed to marry Jaime Lannister (The Westerlands) before he was called to the Kingsguard, and eventually married Jon Arryn (The Vale of Arryn). These are all Great Lords of Great Houses in kingdoms that border the Riverlands. Thus, he would likely have sought a daughter of a Great House from either the Westerlands or the Reach. As others have suggested, if Mace wasn't so deadset on seeing Margaery as Queen she would make a worthy match for Edmure. We know that Hoster wanted Brynden to marry a Redwyne, so he certainly had some aspirations for closer relations with the Reach.

If he wanted to keep things at home, he would have chosen someone from one of the more prolific bannermen of the Riverlands who could better reinforce the Tully family's place as Lords Paramount.

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I think Doran was a fool to arrange a match between Arianne and Viserys, considering that Viserys... isn't all there. 

True, though I doubt he knew what Viserys was like seeing as the arrangement was made when Arianne and Viserys were children.
 

Edited by Faera

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39 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So who qualifies as "really good" for Edmure? 

I think Doran was a fool to arrange a match between Arianne and Viserys, considering that Viserys... isn't all there. 

I think the best candidate for Edmure was Arienne if she would be removed from inheritance as she suspected. If Doran wasn't so insistent on marrying her to Viserys there are plenty of good candidates for her around, again considering her not inheriting. She could have married to Edmure. Jon Arryn visited Dorne after RR ended to ensure they will not rebel. He may have arrenged a betrothal between Stannis, who was 16 then and Arienne who would be close to 10 if I'm not mistaken. Renly was also an option if they married Stannis to Selys. She could have married to Willas and Garlan, depending on whether she will inherit Dorne or not. This is both before and after Oberyn crippling Willas and actually it is a very good idea, both to reconcile with Tyrells after Willas is crippled (as he did with Yronwoods by sending a son as a ward due to Oberyn's other deeds) and to form an alliance between two regions that stood for Targaryens. What we see instead is Doran drooling all over to the idea of making her daughter a queen. Does it sound familiar? Who else do we have that gets all excited with the idea of a daughter sitting her arse on a throne? Mace. And people think of Mace as a puff fish while Doran is this mastermind schemer.

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14 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And people think of Mace as a puff fish while Doran is this mastermind schemer.

Far from it, yes he can scheme with the rest of them but in no way is he a "mastermind". He manages to secure the betrothal for Arianne, but then sits on his arse and does nothing else and then after a time decides to send one of his sons on a truly pointless and hopeless endevour to try and woo Daenerys, with a document that she knows nothing about, and with the false promises of 50,000 swords which do not exist. We all know how that turns out, so i can only imagine what his reaction will be when all his "carefully" laid plans crumble down around him.

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38 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

Far from it, yes he can scheme with the rest of them but in no way is he a "mastermind". He manages to secure the betrothal for Arianne, but then sits on his arse and does nothing else and then after a time decides to send one of his sons on a truly pointless and hopeless endevour to try and woo Daenerys, with a document that she knows nothing about, and with the false promises of 50,000 swords which do not exist. We all know how that turns out, so i can only imagine what his reaction will be when all his "carefully" laid plans crumble down around him.

Unless we believe there is some sort of "Dornish Masterplan". I don't think there is, though. That he was just sitting around putting all his eggs on a Targaryen restoration allowing him to make Tywin pay for his sister and her children's murders, only to have Tyrion kill him and rob him of that pleasure. Viserys is dead and now Quentyn is dead. At this point, though, the best Doran can hope for is marrying Arianne to Aegon and allying himself with that cause. The pathway to Daenerys has pretty much burned, literally.

Otherwise, he ought to just give up, marry Arianne to a loyal bannerman or finding her a husband from the Free Cities and waiting to see where this war is going. The Lannisters are still going down - it's just through their own destructive natures rather than anything Doran does.

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Who is Doran's father? With whom does princess of Dorne who will inherit Dorne have to marry?

 

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

Unless we believe there is some sort of "Dornish Masterplan". I don't think there is, though. That he was just sitting around putting all his eggs on a Targaryen restoration allowing him to make Tywin pay for his sister and her children's murders, only to have Tyrion kill him and rob him of that pleasure. Viserys is dead and now Quentyn is dead. At this point, though, the best Doran can hope for is marrying Arianne to Aegon and allying himself with that cause. The pathway to Daenerys has pretty much burned, literally.

Otherwise, he ought to just give up, marry Arianne to a loyal bannerman or finding her a husband from the Free Cities and waiting to see where this war is going. The Lannisters are still going down - it's just through their own destructive natures rather than anything Doran does.

I think this is because Dorans plans were a later addition and not given much thought  during the earlier parts of the story were shaped.

Think of it, there are 7 kingdoms (not counting Tin Men), of which only two were on the crowns side. And what does the supposed mastermind schemer spider viper leader of the smaller of these two (and the smallest) do? He just decides he doesn't need the region with biggest army on his side, which is also openly threatened by the crown (Baratheon-Florent marriage) because they were also in the same side of the war as he was. Instead he needs her princess daughter to be a queen and this powerful neigh-boors to be hostile to him because of grievences caused by his troublesome brother.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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2 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Who is Doran's father? 

I don't think we know who Doran's father was or what house he was from, if he was from any particular house, do we? I'm not sure if we even know his mother's name. All we know really is that prior to his inheritance, Mama Martel was Princess of Dorne in her own right and was good friends with Joanna Lannister from their days as ladies-in-waiting, or something. I don't think Doran's estranged wife and mother of his three children is even Westerosi, so maybe his dad wasn't either.

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With whom does princess of Dorne who will inherit Dorne have to marry?

By Princess of Dorne, do you mean Arianne? She wouldn't have to marry anyone to succeed her father as Princess of Dorne in her own right. Doran seems to have had aspirations to make Arianne the Queen Consort to a Targaryen restoration. If she does become Queen, say by marrying Aegon and him succeeding in seizing the IT from Tommen, then presumably Trystan would succeed as Prince of Dorne, seeing as Quentyn is presumed dead.

If you meant the Princess of Dorne, Mama Martell, no idea. She could have married any number of people - members of the extended Martell family, son of an important bannerman, you name it.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think this is because Dorans plans were a later addition and not given much thought  during the earlier parts of the story were shaped.

Think of it, there are 7 kingdoms (not counting Tin Men), of which only two were on the crowns side. And what does the supposed mastermind schemer spider viper leader of the smaller of these two (and the smallest) do? He just decides he doesn't need the region with biggest army on his side, which is also openly threatened by the crown (Baratheon-Florent marriage) because they were also in the same side of the war as he was. Instead he needs her princess daughter to be a queen and this powerful neigh-boors to be hostile to him because of grievences caused by his troublesome brother.

If that is the case then Doran's plan, whatever it, cannot be critical to the final outcome no matter what. He's serving as a distraction more than anything.

One thing that is clear is that Doran has every reason to try and appear like a loyal servant of the crown because he doesn't want the Reach busting in through his front door. If Aegon is successful in taking the Stormlands, in particular Storm's End, suddenly he can be a little more flexible because he can ally Dorne with him. It begs the question -- will Doran even care at this point if Aegon really is his nephew or not? If he backs Aegon, marries Arienne to him and he destroys the weak Lannisters with the Golden Company (as Tyrion clear hoped he would) then he still got what he wanted: to see Arianne as Queen and the last Lannisters destroyed.

I do wonder how Trystan's betrothal to Myrcella, and getting her as a ward played into his plans other than to have a Lannister hostage in his grasp... one that thanks to Arianne he may have had to give up. Though, it would be interesting if it turned out Doran had the real Myrcella the whole time and it was Rosmund who got scarred and sent back to KL.

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Does anyone think that if Trystane and Myrcella were both to survive the novels that they’d go through with their betrothal? If Aegon, Daenerys or Jon end up on the Iron Throne they have no reason to name her a bastard because she’s behind them in the succession anyway, and you can’t prove it, so in the unlikely event she survives the series she may remain Myrcella Baratheon. Or if she were to be reduced to Myrcella Hill, Trystane is fond of her and Doran and Arianne may not be around much longer to tell him no (if they would even care). 

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5 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

Does anyone think that if Trystane and Myrcella were both to survive the novels that they’d go through with their betrothal? If Aegon, Daenerys or Jon end up on the Iron Throne they have no reason to name her a bastard because she’s behind them in the succession anyway, and you can’t prove it, so in the unlikely event she survives the series she may remain Myrcella Baratheon. Or if she were to be reduced to Myrcella Hill, Trystane is fond of her and Doran and Arianne may not be around much longer to tell him no (if they would even care). 

It would be pretty hard to prove that Robert wasn't Myrcella's father given this is a world without paternity tests. Then again, the new regime can call her whatever they want. The way things are going canonically, I wouldn't be surprised if Trystan ended up becoming the Prince of Dorne. Arianne seems borderline "too dumb to live" (much like her brother, Quentyn and uncle, Oberyn) and Doran's plans seem to be just waiting to backfire on him. If that happens, he can marry whoever he wants.

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9 hours ago, Faera said:

Arianne seems borderline "too dumb to live" (much like her brother, Quentyn and uncle, Oberyn)

i wouldn't exactly call Arianne too dumb to live, but her actions clearly indicate a certain recklessness and that she doesn't care anymore, ever since she read the letter saying that Quentyn would rule Dorne she has believed that Doran planned to disinherit her and therefore has adopted a rebellious personality since that time. The plot to crown Myrcella is her way of trying to draw Dorne into the conflict iirc. She then throws it all in Doran's face when he reveals the truth to her.

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I made a Westerosi Sims game awhile back, complete with all major houses and castles in ASOIAF. 

Some of the matches I made:

Robb Stark (283-) + Margaery Tyrell (283-)

- They became Lord and Lady of Winterfell

- Issue: Rickard (306-), Edric (308-), Alerie (313-)

Sansa Stark (286-) + Loras Tyrell (282-) :

- They become Lord and Lady of Highgarden

- Issue: Willem (307-), Elinor (308-), Leo (310-)

Arya Stark (289-) + Gendry... Baratheon (284-)

- In my world, Gendry is discovered as Roberts bastard son and officially recognized by Renly Baratheon. Seeing as Renly is homosexual and has no desire to take a wife or father children, he trains Gendry in the arts of ruling and legitimizes him-- naming him heir to Storms End. (A girl can dream)

- They become Lord and Lady of Storms End

- Issue: Steffon (313-), Raya (323-)

Brandon Stark (290-) + Shireen Baratheon (289-)

They become Lord and Lady of Dragonstone

- Issue: Olivar (313-), Cassana (315-)

Rickon Stark (295- + Myrcella Baratheon (290-)

- In my world, Joffrey becomes King but dies shortly thereafter. Tommen becomes the new King and Myrcella is named Lady of Casterly Rock. 

- A bit of an age gap here but... work with me 

- They become Lord and Lady of Casterly Rock

- Issue: Janei (315-), Eddard & Martyn (317)

King Tommen Baratheon (291-) + Elinor Tyrell (308-)

King and Queen of the Seven Kingdoms

- Issue: Prince Baelor Baratheon (329-)

 

:-)

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4 hours ago, shancat97 said:

Arya Stark (289-) + Gendry... Baratheon (284-)

- In my world, Gendry is discovered as Roberts bastard son and officially recognized by Renly Baratheon. Seeing as Renly is homosexual and has no desire to take a wife or father children, he trains Gendry in the arts of ruling and legitimizes him-- naming him heir to Storms End. (A girl can dream)

- They become Lord and Lady of Storms End

- Issue: Steffon (313-), Raya (323-)

Why would Renly go with Gendry over Edric though? Gendry isn't much older than Edric and he is a highborn bastard with a mother from a great house and is already recognized by Robert as his son.

Other than that I think you should try Crusader Kings 2 (with AGOT mod) you'll really enjoy it I am sure :D

 

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8 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Why would Renly go with Gendry over Edric though? Gendry isn't much older than Edric and he is a highborn bastard with a mother from a great house and is already recognized by Robert as his son.

 

Basically, this though it is a Sims game! :P 

In our slightly more politically viable magical world where these marriages are allowed to happen, it makes sense that Edric *might* get legitimised because he was an acknowledged bastard of Robert's. Gendry is still a political nobody even if people knew he was Robert's bastard. Though, in reality, I think it makes more sense that Renly would just take one for the team and get Margaery pregnant with his own child. Being a homosexual wouldn't necessarily be a barrier for that and he'd want a son of his own to sure up his position. Even a high-born legitimised bastard wouldn't feel very secure.

Edited by Faera

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On 11/14/2017 at 4:35 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Why would Renly go with Gendry over Edric though? Gendry isn't much older than Edric and he is a highborn bastard with a mother from a great house and is already recognized by Robert as his son.

Other than that I think you should try Crusader Kings 2 (with AGOT mod) you'll really enjoy it I am sure :D

 

More importantly, Renly has no actual skills at ruling, so what exactly is he teaching Gendry?  How to bathe?  As Olenna Tyrell puts it so memorably, that is about the extent of Renly's talent.

 

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4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

More importantly, Renly has no actual skills at ruling, so what exactly is he teaching Gendry?  How to bathe?  As Olenna Tyrell puts it so memorably, that is about the extent of Renly's talent.

Loras did start out as Renly's squire if i recall correctly. We all know Loras is one of the best knights in the realm but he must also smell nice as well to get the nickname the Knight of Flowers. I think Olenna is selling Renly short. 

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On 11/14/2017 at 4:35 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Why would Renly go with Gendry over Edric though? Gendry isn't much older than Edric and he is a highborn bastard with a mother from a great house and is already recognized by Robert as his son.

Other than that I think you should try Crusader Kings 2 (with AGOT mod) you'll really enjoy it I am sure :D

 

A much more logical option but I was just fanservicing myself :-)

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2 hours ago, shancat97 said:

A much more logical option but I was just fanservicing myself :-)

The Stark-Baratheon union Robert always wanted; A Lyanna look alike marrying a Robert look alike! We only need a Ned(or Brandon) look alike to marry a Catelyn look alike and it would look like the original southron ambitions would be fullfilled.

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Seems to me that the tradition was to marry your children to vassals within your region, looking at the Stark family tree Catelyn seems to be the only Southern bride but that’s because Rickard was part of the Southern ambitions so went against what was the norm. 

I personally think arranged marriages are better than love marriages in Westeros.  

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