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Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines


Manhole Eunuchsbane

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6 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't think that was narcissistic at all, although I can see why some folks think that. I think it's more of an apology to all the crews, actors, writers, etc who put time into those projects only to have it torn down and thrown away because of his fuckup. 

Most folks don't realize how much collective work goes into a film or television production. The shittiest film or TV show you've ever seen likely involved thousands of hours of work by a large number of people. And Louis CK just effectively destroyed multiple shows and productions on the back of this. I have to imagine that he feels badly for all the folks who worked hard on those projects.  

He mentioned four times how much these women ADMIRED HIM. And claimed that was why it was coercive- No Louis, it is because you were pretty inarguably the most powerful person in comedy and had the power to make or break a career with a wave of your hand (see Tig Notaro). It wasn’t because you’re so gosh darn talented and great, it’s because you were incredibly powerful over their careers and livelihoods. That’s why it’s a shitty narcissistic apology. 

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16 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

He mentioned four times how much these women ADMIRED HIM. And claimed that was why it was coercive- No Louis, it is because you were pretty inarguably the most powerful person in comedy and had the power to make or break a career with a wave of your hand (see Tig Notaro). It wasn’t because you’re so gosh darn talented and great, it’s because you were incredibly powerful over their careers and livelihoods. That’s why it’s a shitty narcissistic apology. 

I was referring to his mentioning the various films and TV productions that he listed as not necessarily being narcissistic, not the apology as a whole.

I agree with your main point, specifically with the part about him not recognizing the power dynamic that was at play. This is a really intelligent guy. I don't buy that he didn't understand this. 

Not sure you can say he made Tig Notaro's career. She was fairly well established prior to One Mississippi. I think it's fair to say that he paved the way for her to get her own show. And that the motivation behind him doing this might have been some sort of mea culpa in regards to how he was treating women in the industry.  

 

/The more I think about it, his use of the word admire was unfortunate given the circumstance, but you can't deny its' truth. There wasn't a stand-up working who didn't admire him. He basically set the new standard for how a stand-up controls his or her own career. He was the prototype for the current "work on your routine for a year, perfect your hour, tape it as a special, then throw it out" template that all the top comics strive to achieve. He was the first stand-up to produce, film, edit and then sell his specials online. He was universally admired. I agree that he could have phrased that particular segment of his apology better. 

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Also, to people who don’t consider this very threatening behavior- particularly the dudes which is pretty much all of you I’ve seen say that. Louis CK is a big dude, he’s over 6 feet tall and not small for his height either. Say you are the average woman, about 5’5” and 140lbs. This dude is twice your size and about a bazillion times more powerful, physically, professionally, financially, and socially than you. If you are like most women, if someone unexpectedly pulls their dick out, your first thought is AM I ABOUT TO GET RAPED. And if you think you are possibly about to get raped your second thought is likely to be IF I MAKE THIS PERSON ANGRY AM I MORE LIKELY TO GET BEATEN OR MURDERED IN ADDITION TO BEING RAPED. Because our whole lives, three things become super super clear with almost daily reinforcement- #1- it is your job to be vigilant about rape, nobody else’s, especially not someone who might rape because we apparently don’t believe potential rapists exist among us, only potential victims of rape who can stop this by never drinking or being alone or dressing a certain way or flirting with anyone or wearing a ponytail or being out at night or being or working in a place where there are mostly men. #2- that when you reject a man he is very likely to become abusive. Look at women’s screenshots of online dating and how men react to no or even a not prompt enough yes. Verbal abuse, threats, insults, the whole gamut. Every woman you know who has tried online dating has probably encountered this a fuckton. Dudes who catcall you do the same thing in person. Dudes on dates do shit like that in person. Almost every woman experiences this firsthand from dudes too decorous to just whip their dick out. Women get murdered all the time for saying no or leaving. All of us are aware of this. #3- Nobody believes you, and if they do believe you, they still don’t care. One man accuses Spacey, his career is DONE. Like thirty women accused Cosby and it wasn’t until another man kept bringing it up that anyone listened to them. Like 15 women accused the guy who later got elected president, he himself bragged about it and sexually harassed a female debate moderator and several women on twitter while campaigning. He. Is. President. Look at Amber Heard, she accused Johnny Depp of assault and had evidence and people are still saying she’s a gold digger or that she provoked it. His career doesn’t suffer. Roman Polanski was convicted and fled the country and people work with him, he’s nominated for Oscars. Woody Allen still makes movies, is nominated for awards. All of this makes women feel there is nothing they can do.

Its not fucking good enough that men who do shit like this don’t realize the amount of power these realities give them over women. It should be THEIR job to be aware of it as much as anyone else’s. His apology and frankly a lot of people in this thread and elsewhere are going easy on him for not realizing that. And that’s just not good enough.

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10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I was referring to his mentioning the various films and TV productions that he listed as not necessarily being narcissistic, not the apology as a whole.

I agree with your main point, specifically with the part about him not recognizing the power dynamic that was at play. This is a really intelligent guy. I don't buy that he didn't understand this. 

Not sure you can say he made Tig Notaro's career. She was fairly well established prior to One Mississippi. I think it's fair to say that he paved the way for her to get her own show. And that the motivation behind him doing this might have been some sort of mea culpa in regards to how he was treating women in the industry.  

 

/The more I think about it, his use of the word admire was unfortunate given the circumstance, but you can't deny its' truth. There wasn't a stand-up working who didn't admire him. He basically set the new standard for how a stand-up controls his or her own career. He was the prototype for the current "work on your routine for a year, perfect your hour, tape it as a special, then throw it out" template that all the top comics strive to achieve. He was the first stand-up to produce, film, edit and then sell his specials online. He was universally admired. I agree that he could have phrased that particular segment of his apology better. 

I’m not talking about One Mississippi. He made Tig Notaro’s career years before that by putting her special on his site.

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14 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Its not fucking good enough that men who do shit like this don’t realize the amount of power these realities give them over women. It should be THEIR job to be aware of it as much as anyone else’s. His apology and frankly a lot of people in this thread and elsewhere are going easy on him for not realizing that. And that’s just not good enough.

 Agree completely. I would take that one step further and say that I don't believe that these men don't know this. Especially a guy whose as smart as Louis is. It's the one aspect of his "apology" that I would point out as being bullshit. He came up from the bottom in this industry and he experienced various forms of power dynamics that worked against him. Having bits stolen by established comics. Being black-balled by club owners that owe you money. Getting bumped by established guys. He knew that he had career power over these women. There's no way he can claim ignorance in that regard.  

13 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

I’m not talking about One Mississippi. He made Tig Notaro’s career years before that by putting her special on his site.

Are you talking about her cancer/mastectomy reveal? That was an HBO special.

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16 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Notaro herself has said that his support was instrumental in her career and she has always somewhat suspected he did it to come off as a good guy.

Instrumental towards getting her a TV show, yes. And yeah, she's said to have been pushing him to address this issue publicly for quite some time. 

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Instrumental towards getting her a TV show, yes. And yeah, she's said to have been pushing him to address this issue publicly for quite some time. 

That’s not what she said. She said that putting her special on his website and his many many mentions of her in interviews were instrumental in her career as a whole, and that was what made her uncomfortable. Yes, it was an HBO special- and it was produced by Louis CK, which is why he was allowed to also put it on his website. I am a big fan of Tig Notaro’ from many years before her tv show. Know why? Because I was a big fan of Louis CK. I found out about her from his praise. She deserves her success absolutely, but Louis CK was undoubtedly a benefactor of that success which she has acknowledged extensively. It’s not just her show. 

 

But it it’d be cool if we could drop the well actuallying you are doing to me about Tig Notaro’s career and talk about sexual assault.

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16 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

That’s not what she said. She said that putting her special on his website and his many many mentions of her in interviews were instrumental in her career as a whole, and that was what made her uncomfortable. Yes, it was an HBO special- and it was produced by Louis CK, which is why he was allowed to also put it on his website. I am a big fan of Tig Notaro’ from many years before her tv show. Know why? Because I was a big fan of Louis CK. I found out about her from his praise. She deserves her success absolutely, but Louis CK was undoubtedly a benefactor of that success which she has acknowledged extensively. It’s not just her show. 

 

But it it’d be cool if we could drop the well actuallying you are doing to me about Tig Notaro’s career and talk about sexual assault.

Fair enough.

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On 11/10/2017 at 10:02 AM, Tywin et al. said:

Also, how the hell does Trump still get a pass on all of this?

Because Republicans, as they say right now with Roy Moore, say time and time and time again: "Well it's better than having a Democrat in office."

It is also revealing to see a recent poll in the Washington Post: the majority of Americans say that women have a harder time in general than men. The only demographic that disagreed were Trump voters, who say that either there is no difference or that men have it harder.

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Hollywood is decadent and corrupt, it needs to crash - with any luck 2018 will be the year.

Creeps like Weinstien in power and actors that either accept abuse or turn a blind eye because of the lure of celebrity or greed, the whole industry breeds horrible humans. The Boycott Hollywood movement makes perfect sense to me - if you really need to see the trash Hollywood produces, find a torrent but stop paying and supporting it.

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Lulz. Hopefully this helps clean Hollywood up, and changes the SOP that big wig producers and director's have employed, but crashed? I think you're delusional if you think that's going to happen. The industry is being dragged kicking and screaming into a new era, much like the music industry has, but it's not going away. It's certainly less influential due to the internet and the like. They are no longer the gatekeepers in the same way that they were in years past, and that's a good thing. 

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I don't know Manhole - 2018 has so many 200 mil blockbusters planned, back to back, all with 200 mil advertising budgets. Perhaps Hollywood will continue in some regard - but the age of the big budget FX blockbuster may be drawing to a close, as is the age of 50 mil paydays for actors. The more money in any industry, the higher it's corruption seems to be - so a total financial overhaul of how Hollywood operates may be a very good thing.

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15 minutes ago, ummester said:

I don't know Manhole - 2018 has so many 200 mil blockbusters planned, back to back, all with 200 mil advertising budgets. Perhaps Hollywood will continue in some regard - but the age of the big budget FX blockbuster may be drawing to a close, as is the age of 50 mil paydays for actors. The more money in any industry, the higher it's corruption seems to be - so a total financial overhaul of how Hollywood operates may be a very good thing.

I agree that the changes that are already taking place are a very good thing, I just don't see it going away. I suppose you've got a point in that if enough of these blockbusters tank, Hollywood will have to adjust, but it seems to me that they've expanded the overseas market to such a degree that these sorts of films are still very profitable. And theses types of films seem to fuel all of their ancillary outlets on top of that. 

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5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I agree that the changes that are already taking place are a very good thing, I just don't see it going away. I suppose you've got a point in that if enough of these blockbusters tank, Hollywood will have to adjust, but it seems to me that they've expanded the overseas market to such a degree that these sorts of films are still very profitable. And theses types of films seem to fuel all of their ancillary outlets on top of that. 

Big budget flicks that do well OS seem not to do well domestically in the US and vice versa, as a general rule. Warcraft and We Were Soldiers did great in the Chinese market but not so well in the US, whereas the new Star Wars films are much more popular in the US. Sure, some films like Jurassic World surprise everyone and make a ton everywhere - but the sociopolitical tastes of the US/modern West do seem very different to that of the industrialising world ATM - compare a Hollywood film to a Bollywood film, or a Chinese film totally different representations of humanity.

A more independently driven Hollywood will probably produce films with better narratives and engage less corrupt employees but not be as marketable OS.

As to the thread, however, I think that part of the reason Hollywood is so decadent, full of so many deviants, is because of the power it wields via celebrity and money. The really pathetic thing is that actors think Oscars are still somehow legit, when all they seem to be is an award given to who put up with the sleaziest producers. The whole environment is false and so long as people keep focusing on scandals, they are losing sight of the bigger picture.

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

Hollywood is decadent and corrupt, it needs to crash - with any luck 2018 will be the year.

Creeps like Weinstien in power and actors that either accept abuse or turn a blind eye because of the lure of celebrity or greed, the whole industry breeds horrible humans. The Boycott Hollywood movement makes perfect sense to me - if you really need to see the trash Hollywood produces, find a torrent but stop paying and supporting it.

This abuse isn't limited to Hollywood, it's pretty much everywhere.  

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

... I suppose you've got a point in that if enough of these blockbusters tank, Hollywood will have to adjust, but it seems to me that they've expanded the overseas market to such a degree that these sorts of films are still very profitable...

Most money isn't made at the box office any more, it's made in merchandising. Overseas market sales are to help offset the costs of the film. It's a crude way of working it out, but most films need to make four times their budget to break even. That's because half of the money goes to the box office itself (the cinema that screens the film) and of what is left, half goes to the distributer.

One way of saving money is for the distributer and financier to be the same company, which Disney likes, but there's still a hard job in making back money from ticket sales alone. Partly films are too expensive compared to cost of living and partly because cinemas aren't necessarily worth the cost compared to easy access to great films in the back-catalogues on streaming services.

This is why Disney has spend roughly infinity monies buying up merchandise-rich intellectual properties such as Star Wars and Marvel, and why they're re-releasing all of their classic and highly marketable classics in live-action form. The longer it has been since Beauty and the Beast or Toy Story was aired, the harder it is to sell those toys. But re-release the films in live action, or add yet another sequel and before you know it the new toys, shirts, books, drink bottles, lunch boxes and breakfast cereals that tie-in to the latest Cars 16, Pirates of the Caribbean 26 or Toy Story 1,000,000 make Disney their money.

The point of all of this? Hollywood doesn't have to worry much at all about how much harassment goes on in the workforce. Parents will shield their children from such stories, and its the children who are demanding the toys. It's very hard to explain to children that they shouldn't go and see a new Disney film because some producer happened to touch women inappropriately.

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6 hours ago, Kelli Fury said:

Because our whole lives, three things become super super clear with almost daily reinforcement- #1- it is your job to be vigilant about rape, nobody else’s, especially not someone who might rape because we apparently don’t believe potential rapists exist among us, only potential victims of rape who can stop this by never drinking or being alone or dressing a certain way or flirting with anyone or wearing a ponytail or being out at night or being or working in a place where there are mostly men.

Is this where you live? That's horrific. Even if media portrayals of rape can be a bit off, I don't think they promote this attitude. Take, for example, Ramsay's rape of Sansa. People hated it, said it was awful and exploitative... but still, no one really thought the show was blaming her. As usual, rape was being used to show Ramsay is Properly Evil (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil)

Even the apologists I know seem to acknowledge that on at least some occasions, there are just evil people out there. One of Britain's worst ever rapists would break into the houses of the elderly.

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2 hours ago, larrytheimp said:

This abuse isn't limited to Hollywood, it's pretty much everywhere.  

Yes, I think there are far too many areas of life where there is such huge inequality of wealth and power that those at the top are able to do exactly as they wish without consequence. I'm pessimistic that its possible to fix such a problem however.

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On 11/10/2017 at 7:23 PM, MercurialCannibal said:

sorry, no. he or his people wrote a nice statement. yes, it was more responsible and took more ownership than anyone else in the same overwhelming depressive pile of shit has done so far. but, it is meaningless bullshit.

Of course someone wrote it.  And then it was likely approved by a team of lawyers and public relations folks.  He's rich, what else is there to expect?  

This shit trickles down.  Or at least that's my hope.  

That said, sure, I agree, it's total shit.  But we currently have such a low bar where victims are commonly called liars and shamed and have their reputations gutted that this statement is big and major.  I see others following a similar suit, and then perhaps it eventually reaches the mlllions of people whose stories you don't see or hear on front page news.

15 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Same. 

I'm not about to jump at the chance to applaud someone because sometimes he Does a Funny. 

Fair point but I still don't think we should be so quick to forgive an abuser for finally admitting to being a shit when he' basically forced to. Like I said - I don't think he's the scum of the earth that should be burned at the stake I just think...he's a gross guy...and I dont really feel sorry for him 

Loads of people have weird sexual kinks and don't thrust them on other unconsenting people ya know?

I don't forgive him (I dont even know who he is).  He's a total shit bag.  But I think it's fine to feel some measure of relief when one of these shitbags owns up to what they did.  

5 hours ago, ummester said:

Hollywood is decadent and corrupt, it needs to crash - with any luck 2018 will be the year.

Creeps like Weinstien in power and actors that either accept abuse or turn a blind eye because of the lure of celebrity or greed, the whole industry breeds horrible humans. The Boycott Hollywood movement makes perfect sense to me - if you really need to see the trash Hollywood produces, find a torrent but stop paying and supporting it.

Might as well say this about all of society because none of this is limited to Hollywood.  It happens in every industry.  You'd be stuck having to free range your needs if you go on a boycott of any industry that has a harrasment and abuse problem.

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