Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[polishgenius]

27 minutes ago, StepStark said:

In Europe where I live in, and I traveled throughout it, that is definitely not the case. Vast majority of women never experienced sexual assault.

More likely, they just don't talk to you about it.

[StepStark]

10 minutes ago, Week said:

Are you proud of yourself?

I don't think that discussing things on a forum is something to be proud of, so no I'm not proud of myself because of what I'm posting here, but I'm also not ashamed of anything I posted here.

You on the other hand seem to be quite proud of what you're posting. That's probably the only explanation of your ability to accuse me of being insulting and condescending, while at the same time you're asking me questions like that one, or asking me why did I even join the discussion and what is my goal in it.

If anything, you just proved that you have no tolerance for opinions you disagree with. That makes your opinions pretty worthless in my eyes, and that makes any discussion with you even more so.

Goodbye.

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, polishgenius said:

More likely, they just don't talk to you about it.

But they do with you?

[Week]

4 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I don't think that discussing things on a forum is something to be proud of, so no I'm not proud of myself because of what I'm posting here, but I'm also not ashamed of anything I posted here.

You on the other hand seem to be quite proud of what you're posting. That's probably the only explanation of your ability to accuse me of being insulting and condescending, while at the same time you're asking me questions like that one, or asking me why did I even join the discussion and what is my goal in it.

If anything, you just proved that you have no tolerance for opinions you disagree with. That makes your opinions pretty worthless in my eyes, and that makes any discussion with you even more so.

Goodbye.

Peace among worlds.

I was identifying you correctly as being insulting and condescending -- as others have been and has been noted by a number of other posters here. You've been touting your anecdotal experience (as a European male) over the experience and evidence shared by (largely) Americans and, most particularly, American women. eta- of course, much love and respect to Theda and the euro-commie women here too.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

More likely, they just don't talk to you about it.

MUCH more likely. I'm in the UK. To think sexual assault doesn't happen on Europe is bloody naive. 

[polishgenius]

4 minutes ago, StepStark said:

But they do with you?

Yes. A few have.

[The guy from the Vale]

I'd also argue that while respect for women certainly has markedly increased compared to Victorian times, that doesn't mean at all that the current status quo is in any way good enough. Yes, women can now own stuff, vote, and decide their own fate, and that's a good thing. But those old Victorian (and pre-Victorian) attitudes still linger on. Our culture is filled with media created in a time when women were essentially property of their fathers or husbands, robbed of their agency, or media influenced by those older examples. The knight in shining armor saving the princess and then marrying her (without ever asking who she wants to marry in the first place; she's just the reward, not an independent person) is one important example of this. We still see representations of this throughout all of our media, even those created very recently. So to say our education failed is true - but that doesn't mean that we should simply stop educating. It means we need to educate better, offer better role models for men and  women, and teach people what is and isn't responsible behavior. Because no, people don't just know what responsible behavior is; most of us are just selfish pricks - as long as we don't know what we're doing is wrong. And much of the current backlash against women's rights comes from a place of not wanting that cherished innocence challenged. But it needs to be challenged. Because women matter.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, King Ned Stark said:

Possibly true, but it doesn’t seem as if Mankytoes has tried to dominate the discussion, in my opinion.  Quite the opposite, actually, he has seemed to try and remain polite throughout, despite personal insults, being told to shut up, and a lot of oh ffs and then ignoring his questions.

I am not referring to his tone. But posting frequently in a thread can certainly qualify as dominating the conversation. 

7 minutes ago, StepStark said:

I don't think that discussing things on a forum is something to be proud of, so no I'm not proud of myself because of what I'm posting here, but I'm also not ashamed of anything I posted here.

You probably should be. Apart from anything else, you've offered nothing new, interesting, informative, educational, or of any other value, just a bunch of tired old head-in-sand cliches. 

[drawkcabi]

I'm reading, I'm listening, I'm trying to internalize and to learn. I'm hoping that our dear put upon mods who i know must be frustrated after all ready having to close one of these threads and will have every right to shut this one down will instead put in the effort* that they often do to just instruct, warn, and if necessary weed out those posters who just aren't "getting it" and causing these wonderful women of the board, (and some of the guys too!) to make some remarkable constructive posts but don't deserve the remarks that prompt them to write them. I believe these threads are more than just a spring of information of who the next infamous accused will be, I for one feel I am gaining some great insight and I don't want this to be a verboten or "whack-a-mole" for locking board topic.

*Please know it's not a thankless effort what you mods do. Thank you!!!

[Zorral]

That person who said  he knows no European women who have been subjected to these same behaviors by men --

I know European history, political, social and cultural.  I know many European women (just as I know many many women from the Caribbean and South America, Africa, etc.).  I have spent a lot of time in Europe, as I have in many other parts of the world.

To say that he knows no European women who have been subjected to these same behaviors by men is -- I mean, WHAT THE EFFING EFFUCK?????????????????

Ignore this person.  He's clearly and idiot and / or troll, and not worth anyone's space or time or energy.

[StepStark]

4 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

What makes you think you'd see it or even recognise it? What makes you think all the women you know are going to tell you about all the times they'e been harassed or assaulted?  They're not.

Well you seem very certain that you'd see it or recognize it, and that you know what women are really going through. I guess that it's based on two things: 1) because you're a woman yourself and that makes you think that you understand women better than I as a man could, and 2) because you're familiar with and believe in the dominant liberal-feminist narrative of today.

Point number one is not without base because I do think that women understand other women much better than men do. But it goes both ways because men understand other men better than women do. In that sense, expecting that feminists can understand what's wrong with men and how can they be corrected would be just like expecting a male chauvinist to understand what's wrong with women and how can they be corrected.

Point number two is not for this thread obviously. To tell you honestly, I'm not even interested in discussing it here, seeing how much hostility there is toward anyone who challenges that narrative. Again and again it shows that liberals and feminists are much less tolerant toward opposing opinions than conservatives. That's probably because you think you have the right to, because you yourself feel victimized or because you think you're speaking of someone who's been victim. What saddens me the most is that such a feeling is usually based on some statistics ("almost all women were victims of sexual assaults") that are questionable at best.

Seeing how upset you all were with my posts, I'll leave the discussion, because with that much hostility it's not a discussion actually.

[polishgenius]

3 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Again and again it shows that liberals and feminists are much less tolerant toward opposing opinions than conservatives.

[mankytoes]

1 minute ago, Week said:

This is overly simplistic -- women are not a singular voting bloc, they are not all single-issue voters (even if they were -- are you suggesting that sexual assault is the single issue?). Why is their* voting for Trump relevant? Spoiler: it is not relevant. So ask yourself, why did you bother saying it?

*Predominantly white women -- not that we need to go there too.

Exactly, that's the point I'm making. Read how many time people write "women experience this" and "women feel this".

Compare it to race. Saying "black people vote Democrat" is a generalisation, but it's overall a true one. Saying "women supported Hilary over Trump" is an unfair generalisation- as I'm sure you heard many times. But why is it? Black people overwhelmingly don't vote Republican for good reasons. Didn't women have similarly strong reasons to vote for Hilary over Trump? Why aren't women a voting bloc?

For me, the main reason is that few people live in a gender segregated lifestyle. A lot of people associate overwhelmingly with their own race, but few people do so with their own gender, for obvious reasons- most of us are heterosexual, and most of us have family who are of different genders to us. Our experiences are very strongly linked.

So when people write "men think this, women think that", it's a convenient way to form an argument, to put people in boxes- but it isn't true, it doesn't reflect the complexity of reality.

It is a false dichotomy. And when you get into this thinking, it goes further. I'm against sexual assault, so if this guy disagrees with any of my points, he is promoting sexual assault, he is some stereotypical "dudebro" responsibile for rape culture. Even though I am making sure to specifically tell people I'm disagreeing with when I feel they make a good point. On page 12, I thought Kelli made a really smart point, so I told her so, and gave my perspective as well, in agreement. I don't know how she felt about that, but I feel people want this thread to be like two sides- good guys and bad guys. This way of thinking is very seductive, and I definitely am guilty of it as welll, but I actively try not to, to always actively look for the nuance.

This is the conclusion I have come to by stepping back and thinking about what is being written. Of course there are differences between men and women, but this whole "Mars/Venus" idea is bullshit, we're all human beings. Our experiences are linked, they are shared, they overlap.

[Kelli Fury]

And if you are questioning my numbers here, go ahead. But I am a native Ojibwe woman. I am from a demographic of Americans more likely to be raped than anyone else. More likely to be kidnapped than anyone else. More likely to be a missing person than anyone else. More likely to be murdered than anyone else. More likely to have been molested than anyone els. Native women report that 52% of us have been raped, not assaulted. 52% who have been raped and are willing to say so. That 52% includes me. I have been touched without my consent almost once a year every year since I was 11. I am 34. So don’t try to tell me I don’t know because I’m not just the Bill Nye of this, I am Steven fucking Hawking.

[Theda Baratheon]

2 minutes ago, StepStark said:

Well you seem very certain that you'd see it or recognize it, and that you know what women are really going through. I guess that it's based on two things: 1) because you're a woman yourself and that makes you think that you understand women better than I as a man could, and 2) because you're familiar with and believe in the dominant liberal-feminist narrative of today.

Point number one is not without base because I do think that women understand other women much better than men do. But it goes both ways because men understand other men better than women do. In that sense, expecting that feminists can understand what's wrong with men and how can they be corrected would be just like expecting a male chauvinist to understand what's wrong with women and how can they be corrected.

Point number two is not for this thread obviously. To tell you honestly, I'm not even interested in discussing it here, seeing how much hostility there is toward anyone who challenges that narrative. Again and again it shows that liberals and feminists are much less tolerant toward opposing opinions than conservatives. That's probably because you think you have the right to, because you yourself feel victimized or because you think you're speaking of someone who's been victim. What saddens me the most is that such a feeling is usually based on some statistics ("almost all women were victims of sexual assaults") that are questionable at best.

Seeing how upset you all were with my posts, I'll leave the discussion, because with that much hostility it's not a discussion actually.

Can I ask you a question in earnest?

Do you actually read what you type? Do you possess a grain, a mere GRAIN of self awareness?

You came into this thread to essentially tell women to shut up and you unfortunately told the one person in this thread who has extensively studied ancient civilisations that they don't know anything about ancient civilisations. 

You came into a thread like this this stir shit so dont pretend for one moment that you wanted earnest discussion, you didn't and the fact you're ragging on about feminism in this thread being some kind of poisonous evil IN A THREAD ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT just transparently shows everyone in this thread that you, a man in your late 30s, had no intention of engaging in any part of this thread. 

Good bloody riddance to you, off you bloody pop 

[drawkcabi]

I'm an American and take this for just an anecdote or whatever, I don't care. But as I turned from a teenager to adult it seemed I was learning about one person after another in my actual life, be it just in the past or still present that have been subjected to these behaviors. New women I befriended and got close to, more often than not revealed to me a past incident or abusive relationship.

I just was so downhearted and dumbfounded that it seemed to be happening to so many women I knew. I couldn't believe it, but I had to. About eight years or so ago I talked to my therapist about this. I even asked him if all men in general were these sick creatures. So this was eight years ago or around then these questions and realizations were rattling around, after years of just hearing what sad story after another.

I really liked that therapist too that I had at the time. It was a huge loss to me when he stopped being my therapist. He stopped bring my therapist because he was forced to retire after a female client of his charged him with sexual misconduct.       

[kairparavel]

54 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

How’d we get all these redpill castoff debatemebros? Thanks, HBO

I'd like to Dracarys this thread.

All these European women who aren't assaulted.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40656633

https://www.thelocal.fr/20171018/women-in-paris-tell-their-stories-of-sexual-harassment

http://www.dw.com/en/half-of-women-in-germany-victim-of-sexual-harassment-survey/a-41149234

https://www.popsugar.com/news/Reports-Sexual-Assault-Catalonia-Independence-Protests-44113229

 

[StepStark]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You came into this thread to essentially tell women to shut up and you unfortunately told the one person in this thread who has extensively studied ancient civilisations that they don't know anything about ancient civilisations.

But I did no such thing. There is nothing in my posts that says or even suggests that. That's just you reading into it.

3 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

You came into a thread like this this stir shit so dont pretend for one moment that you wanted earnest discussion

Thanks for explaining myself to me... Now please try not to do that any more, so I can leave in peace.

15 minutes ago, mormont said:

You probably should be. Apart from anything else, you've offered nothing new, interesting, informative, educational, or of any other value, just a bunch of tired old head-in-sand cliches.

This is rich coming from a moderator who has no problem with other people calling me "idiot" and other names and accusing me of immoral things I never said in any way.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

11 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

This is the conclusion I have come to by stepping back and thinking about what is being written. Of course there are differences between men and women, but this whole "Mars/Venus" idea is bullshit, we're all human beings. Our experiences are linked, they are shared, they overlap.

I think you will get a lot of agreement with this sentiment.  And part of that is being willing to listen to, and empathize with, the part of the human experience that is outside the shared portion of the venn diagram of all shared human experiences.  It actually doesn't matter what the topic is.  This whole thing sort of reminds me of our therapist saying that for some things it doesn't matter who is right about a particular detail, but whether you are listening to how that detail, or going to the mat about that detail, makes the other feel.  It's like the Quaker way of running a meeting to discuss a contentious issue - before you present your point of view, you have to be able to express the point of view of the previous speaker in your own words to that person's satisfaction.

And, to wrap this back to this discussion - sometimes the topic is framed as an opportunity to listen and understand.  Not to prove that one is right on the interwebs.  I think this is one of those times, and denigrating lived (tough) experiences of the actual humans on the other side of the keyboard is getting a lot of (I think deserved) pushback. 

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, StepStark said:

But I did no such thing. There is nothing in my posts that says or even suggests that. That's just you reading into it.

Thanks for explaining myself to me... Now please try not to do that any more, so I can leave in peace.

This is rich coming from a moderator who has no problem with other people calling me "idiot" and other names and accusing me of immoral things I never said in any way.

Good bye