Weinstein/Hollywood Sex Scandal Continues To Produce Headlines

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I think you will get a lot of agreement with this sentiment.  And part of that is being willing to listen to, and empathize with, the part of the human experience that is outside the shared portion of the venn diagram of all shared human experiences.  It actually doesn't matter what the topic is.  This whole thing sort of reminds me of our therapist saying that for some things it doesn't matter who is right about a particular detail, but whether you are listening to how that detail, or going to the mat about that detail, makes the other feel.  It's like the Quaker way of running a meeting to discuss a contentious issue - before you present your point of view, you have to be able to express the point of view of the previous speaker in your own words to that person's satisfaction.

And, to wrap this back to this discussion - sometimes the topic is framed as an opportunity to listen and understand.  Not to prove that one is right on the interwebs.  I think this is one of those times, and denigrating lived (tough) experiences of the actual humans on the other side of the keyboard is getting a lot of pushback. 

Yep.  

Not one woman in this thread wants to push a men vs woman narrative. I certainly don't - what we have tried to say again, and again, and again is sadly, as women - we have a good degree of knowledge on this subject and for once women's voices are in a small degree being allowed tried be heard. So please hear us.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Kelli Fury said:

Men don’t get forced to be as knowledgeable in this area. Some men are because they listen to people who are without getting childishly defensive about being excluded.

And some men get knowledge in this area because they have been victims of sexual assault.

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And some men get knowledge in this area because they have been victims of sexual assault.

And no one is denying that. But they'e often the victims at the hands of *other* men. Not ONE woman here would seriously try to silence a male victim of sexual assault here. Where have you seen anyone doing this? 

[Eggegg]

Is it not worth listening to the male experience on this as well however? I mean we all talk about educating men, but I never see anyone asking questions about why some men commit these crimes and some don't or what it is about male sexuality that is a problem. If the assumption is that there is something wrong with men's behaviour in general then maybe asking them about it is worthwhile. 

[Kelli Fury]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And some men get knowledge in this area because they have been victims of sexual assault.

And any one of them who wants to talk about it and what they understand in this thread will have the support of all the women in this thread saying this is something they personally experience. But everyone for whom this is an abstract and not their lived experience should be listening to those for whom this is the life they have no choice but to navigate.

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, Eggegg said:

Is it not worth listening to the male experience on this as well however? I mean we all talk about educating men, but I never see anyone asking questions about why some men commit these crimes and some don't or what it is about male sexuality that is a problem. If the assumption is that there is something wrong with men's behaviour in general then maybe asking them about it is worthwhile. 

Why do some men commit these crimes?

Why do men, statistically much more so than women commit acts of sexual violence?

 

[Robin Of House Hill]

On 11/9/2017 at 3:48 PM, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, it's not to the Weinstein level of things, but it is still really weird and inappropriate. The point many comics have made regarding this is any headliner really does have clout in the world of stand-up. They take smaller comics out on the road to open for them, they often put together showcases for producers and agents, and guys like Louis actually produce and direct their own shows and are often involved in the casting of these shows. So in a lot of ways he's kind of like a smaller version of Weinstein.

 I don't know, I love the guys work, so I don't want to believe it, but I'm not going to defend him.

Actually, you already did defend him   You did it by implying what he did was less than what Weinstein did.  I can assure you that each of their victims would disagree with you.  The idea that the number of offenses is what makes their behavior bad, is flat out wrong.  I don't care whether it's Harvey Weinstein, Roy Moore, Kevin Spacey, Louis CK, or Bret Ratner, or the guy down the street.  If they did it only once, it should be a career ender.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And some men get knowledge in this area because they have been victims of sexual assault.

I am willing to stipulate that sexual assault is horrible whatever the gender identity of the victim. I am also willing to sitpulate that sexual assault perpetrated on men is under reported and that is bad. I am sure others are willing to stipulate the same. 

[Theda Baratheon]

What I'm puzzled about is why the women in this thread are expected to discuss this topic as if it is an academic subject.

I'm more than capable of writing an academic essay on the role of women in medieval Welsh prose; I'm more than capable of writing an academic essay on the women of ancient Greece.

But sexual assault happening TODAY isn't an academic subect and so I won't discuss it as if I'm discussing an academic subject. It's a very real and insidious part of most women's lives. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

18 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

And no one is denying that. But they'e often the victims at the hands of *other* men. Not ONE woman here would seriously try to silence a male victim of sexual assault here. Where have you seen anyone doing this? 

I'm one. So yeah, getting told to fucking shut up and listen? Not terribly appreciated.

[Lily Valley]

1 hour ago, StepStark said:

"Facts" you're quoting here are ridiculous. I don't live in USA and never have been there, but I happen to know quite a few people from there and I don't know anyone who'd agree with your statistics that "almost every woman experiences sexual assault" (whether by a man or another woman). In Europe where I live in, and I traveled throughout it, that is definitely not the case. Vast majority of women never experienced sexual assault. Almost every one of them experienced inappropriate approaching and hitting, but that is another matter. Not to equalize the two but I'll just say that almost every men experienced inappropriate response to appropriate approaching.

But even that is not the point. Let's say that you are right and that I'm wrong, and that almost every woman indeed experienced sexual assault by a man. That would mean that decades and decades (or even centuries) of modern education simply failed, and failed miserably, and created society that is evil in its core. If you think that more of the same (education) can solve that, I think you're in for quite a disappointment.

And also, if you really think that my post was about "hurting some male feelings", then I'm sorry but you're doing the very mansplaining only in the opposite direction.

READ THIS GODDAMNED THREAD BEFORE YOU SPEAK.  THERE ARE 5 ARTICLES THAT SHOW THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MEN WOULD RAPE AS LONG AS YOU DONT CALL IT RAPE (32%).  A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER (13%) WILL RAPE IF THERE WERE NO CONSEQUENCES.

Somebody trash this sea lion.

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm one. So yeah, getting told to fucking shut up and listen? Not terribly appreciated.

When did you offer your experience and then have someone tell you to shut up? The only people being told to shut up and listen are people treating this like a vague academic topic and not a lived experience.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

2 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm one. So yeah, getting told to fucking shut up and listen? Not terribly appreciated.

Many hugs. This is a hard emotionally draining topic for many. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Theda Baratheon said:

When did you offer your experience and then have someone tell you to shut up? The only people being told to shut up and listen are people treating this like a vague academic topic and not a lived experience.

I was lumped in with mankytoes in the early going. And I'm pretty sure MC was including me in his post. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct in that I did not offer that experience here, so there's no way you or anyone else here would've known. That said, telling someone in a debate or exchange of opinions to "fucking shut up and listen" is not productive or acceptable. The measure of dogpiling that takes place in these types of threads is really rather ugly and ultimately pointless, and I say that as someone who has been on both sides of them. 

[mankytoes]

18 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

I think you will get a lot of agreement with this sentiment.  And part of that is being willing to listen to, and empathize with, the part of the human experience that is outside the shared portion of the venn diagram of all shared human experiences.  It actually doesn't matter what the topic is.  This whole thing sort of reminds me of our therapist saying that for some things it doesn't matter who is right about a particular detail, but whether you are listening to how that detail, or going to the mat about that detail, makes the other feel.  It's like the Quaker way of running a meeting to discuss a contentious issue - before you present your point of view, you have to be able to express the point of view of the previous speaker in your own words to that person's satisfaction.

And, to wrap this back to this discussion - sometimes the topic is framed as an opportunity to listen and understand.  Not to prove that one is right on the interwebs.  I think this is one of those times, and denigrating lived (tough) experiences of the actual humans on the other side of the keyboard is getting a lot of (I think deserved) pushback. 

Well put. I've been trying to do this politically, because like a lot of people, I really find it very hard to empathise with the political opposition. And I do find it helpful. I haven't been consciously applying this principle to things like social issues, but I will try to in the future. I'm not a naturally empathetic person, but I want to try to improve that.

I guess I've never thought of a forum like that. I've been reading a lot of articles and that on this topic, and I view that as the time to listen and understand. I've always seen a forum as a place to discuss and debate. I believe in the principles of Plato (ok that's a horribley pretentious thing to say, but I feel I might get away with it on this forum...) that you can often learn most from debating things, not just listening.

28 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

And if you are questioning my numbers here, go ahead. But I am a native Ojibwe woman. I am from a demographic of Americans more likely to be raped than anyone else. More likely to be kidnapped than anyone else. More likely to be a missing person than anyone else. More likely to be murdered than anyone else. More likely to have been molested than anyone els. Native women report that 52% of us have been raped, not assaulted. 52% who have been raped and are willing to say so. That 52% includes me. I have been touched without my consent almost once a year every year since I was 11. I am 34. So don’t try to tell me I don’t know because I’m not just the Bill Nye of this, I am Steven fucking Hawking.

I respect that a lot. Well said.

12 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm one. So yeah, getting told to fucking shut up and listen? Not terribly appreciated.

Well said mate. And for what it's worth, me too.

[Theda Baratheon]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I was lumped in with mankytoes in the early going. And I'm pretty sure MC was including me in his post. He can correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct in that I did not offer that experience here, so there's no way you or anyone else here would've known. That said, telling someone in a debate or exchange of opinions to "fucking shut up and listen" is not productive or acceptable. The measure of dogpiling that takes place in these types of threads is really rather ugly and ultimately pointless, and I say that as someone who has been on both sides of them. 

Sympathies and solidarites to you for your experiece but I think the anger here is towards people who are treating this topic like a vague academic topic or simply that it doesnt exist at all.

[Mlle. Zabzie]

6 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I guess I've never thought of a forum like that. I've been reading a lot of articles and that on this topic, and I view that as the time to listen and understand. I've always seen a forum as a place to discuss and debate. I believe in the principles of Plato (ok that's a horribley pretentious thing to say, but I feel I might get away with it on this forum...) that you can often learn most from debating things, not just listening.

 

I reckon a large part of being a successful advocate is being a good listener.  It's hard to refute a point unless you understand it.  

And separately, *hugs* to you as well.  

[Week]

From the perspective of a man to other men:

https://verysmartbrothas.theroot.com/how-if-you-re-a-man-to-deal-with-the-fact-that-you-re-1820410857

 

Quote

It’s sincerely wanting to divest in patriarchy and any other social construct that cultivates, maintains and protects hierarchy. It’s accepting that there are women you’ve wronged who may never forgive you, and that’s their right. (And them not forgiving you or even wanting to hear anything from you shouldn’t make you throw a tantrum. Because again, that’s their right.)

It’s not having your feelings fucking hurt and pouting when called trash. Trash is just a word to encapsulate a range of selfish, destructive and oblivious behaviors.

[...]

It’s seeking published works from bell hooks and Brittney Cooper and Kimberlé Crenshaw and following and listening to Eve Ewing and Deesha Philyaw and Jamilah Lemieux and Danielle Butler and Tarana Burke and so many other women I can name and so many others you’ll find after them. It’s digging for and discovering your blind spots and finding and reading and listening to and reading the already existing work that might help you see.

It’s treating women like people and not “a person I want to fuck.” And if you don’t happen to want to fuck her, it’s still treating her like a person and not “a person I don’t want to fuck.” It’s asking the women in your life, “What do you need?” instead of “What should I do?” which seems like just a minute semantic distinction but really isn’t.

It’s realizing that it’s going to be hard as fuck. It’s being unconcerned with lauds and pats on the back and any other signs that women have recognized that you managed to clear a shin-level bar. They will be—shit, they are—furious and fed up. At us. At you. At me. At the culture that allowed this to happen. At the country that allowed this culture to breathe and breed. At the fact that it’s taking such an onslaught of terrible news for so many of us to begin to realize that the world treats them terribly. That we treat them terribly. And that’s fine. Because it’s necessary. Because we need to be fucking furious too.

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

7 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Sympathies and solidarites to you for your experiece but I think the anger here is towards people who are treating this topic like a vague academic topic or simply that it doesnt exist at all.

Sure, but it is in part an academic topic. I realize that it is also an extremely emotional topic obviously, but that doesn't preclude an academic approach. Anyone who claims it doesn't exist is delusional and should be treated as such. I have no issue with calling those folks out in harsh terms.

[Robin Of House Hill]

And the concept of comparing the levels of sexual misconduct as a purely statistical thing, has no bearing on the amount of harm does to each of the victims.